Transcript: Seeking Asylum | Sep 09, 2015

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and purple tie. Behind him, a wall screen reads “The Agenda, with Steve Paikin.”

Steve says PHOTOS OF DROWNED
SYRIAN TODDLER ALAN KURDI HAVE
SHOCKED PEOPLE AROUND THE GLOBE.
NOW MANY ARE WONDERING IF IT'S
TIME FOR CANADA TO DO MORE TO
HELP THE WORLD'S DISPLACED
PEOPLE _ AND WHICH FEDERAL PARTY
IS THE BEST TO DO THAT.
JOINING US NOW FOR MORE ON HOW
THIS IS AFFECTING THE FEDERAL
ELECTION:
IN KINGSTON, ONTARIO: CHRISTIAN
LEUPRECHT, POLITICAL SCIENTIST
AT THE ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE OF
CANADA;

Christian is in his forties, with short graying hair and a goatee. He wears glasses, a gray suit, gingham shirt and tartan tie.

Steve says AND WITH US IN STUDIO:
JANICE STEIN, TVO'S FOREIGN
AFFAIRS ANALYST AND FOUNDING
DIRECTOR OF THE MUNK SCHOOL OF
GLOBAL AFFAIRS;

Janice is in her seventies, with short wavy gray hair. She wears a long sleeved blue top with white stripes, two silver pendant necklaces and a pair of hoop earrings.

Steve says FRANCISCO RICO-MARTINEZ,
CO-DIRECTOR OF THE FCJ REFUGEE
CENTRE;

Francisco is in his seventies, with slightly long receding curly white hair and a bushy beard. He wears glasses and a checkered shirt.

Steve says AND ALEXANDRA KOTYK, PROJECT
MANAGER OF LIFELINE SYRIA.

Alexandra is in her mid-thirties with long wavy red hair win a ponytail. She wears a sleeveless black top and a delicate necklace.

Steve says CHRISTIAN, GOOD TO HAVE YOU ON
THE LINE FROM KINGSTON, AND TO
THE THREE OF YOU HERE IN THE
STUDIO, I APPRECIATE YOUR BEING
WITH US ON SUCH SHORT NOTICE
TODAY.
I WANT TO START BY JUST GOING
THROUGH THREE CHARTS HERE WHICH
WILL HELP SET THE SCENE FOR OUR
DISCUSSION.
MISTER DIRECTOR, IF YOU WOULD,
PLEASE?

A bar chart appears on screen. The vertical axis goes from 0 to 60 million and the horizontal axis goes from 1990 to 2014. The bars show the number of internally displaced persons in blue, the number of refugees in red and the number of asylum-seekers in neon red, in the following historic events: the Rwanda Genocide in the mid-nineties, the war in Afghanistan in the early 2000s and the Syrian Civil War in 2011.

Steve says THESE ARE FORCIBLY DISPLACED
PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.
YOU SEE THEY'RE BROKEN DOWN INTO
THREE DIFFERENT CATEGORIES:
INTERNALLY DISPLACED PERSONS,
REFUGEES, AND ASYLUM SEEKERS.
AND AS YOU GO ACROSS THE CHART,
YOU CAN SEE HOW THE CHART SPIKES
FOR THE RWANDAN GENOCIDE, THE
WAR IN AFGHANISTAN AGAIN, AND
2014, THE IMPACT OF THE SYRIAN
CIVIL WAR.
A COUPLE OF MORE CHARTS TO HELP
REINFORCE THESE POINTS.
HERE'S REFUGEES BY COUNTRY OF
ORIGIN IN THE YEAR 2014.

Another bar chart appears on screen. It shows Syria at number one with almost 4 million refugees, Afghanistan with over 2.5, Somalia with a little over a million, Sudan and South Sudan with a little over half a million, Congo approximately half a million, Congo with half a million, Myanmar and C.A.R with a little under half a million and Iraq and Eritrea with round a quarter of a million refugees.

Steve says NO SURPRISE, SYRIA AT NUMBER
ONE.
AFGHANISTAN NUMBER TWO.
AND THEN A BIG DROP-OFF AFTER
THAT.
AND ONE MORE CHART, REFUGEES BY
COUNTRY OF DESTINATION.
WHERE ARE THEY GOING?

Another bar chart appears on screen. The numbers go as follows: Turkey; 1.6 million refugees; Pakistan, 1.5 million; Lebanon, 1.1 million; Iran, 0.9 million; Ethiopia and Jordan, 0.6 million; Kenya, 0.5 million; Chad, 0.4; Uganda, 0.3 million and China, 0.2 million refugees.

Steve says WELL, GIVEN WHAT'S HAPPENING IN
SYRIA AND ITS PROXIMITY TO
TURKEY, YOU WON'T BE SURPRISED
TO SEE TURKEY IS THE NUMBER ONE
DESTINATION.
PAKISTAN THE NUMBER ONE
DESTINATION FOR AFGHAN REFUGEES.
AND THEN AGAIN LEBANON, IRAN,
AND IT TAILS OFF.
I WANT TO START WITH A BIT OF AN
ODD QUESTION, BECAUSE I HAVE
HEARD, FRANCISCO, TO YOU FIRST.
I'VE HEARD THESE PEOPLE WHO
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TODAY
REFERRED TO IN MANY DIFFERENT
WAYS.
WHAT DO WE CALL THEM?

A caption reads “Francisco Rico- Martinez. FCJ Refugee Centre.”

The caption changes to “Seeking Asylum. Making sense of it all.”

Francisco says I
CALL THEM REFUGEES AND I AM
USING THE CANADIAN DEFINITION OF
PEOPLE IN NEED OF PROTECTION TO
DO THAT.
WE HAVE ONE OF THE MOST EXPANDED
DEFINITIONS.
WE HAVE THE CONVENTION, THE
REFUGEE CONVENTION DEFINITION;
WE HAVE THE PEOPLE DISPLACED
BECAUSE OF TORTURE AND PEOPLE AT
RISK.
WE HAVE THESE THREE ELEMENTS IN
OUR DEFINITION.
I CALL IT REFUGEES AND THEY CALL
IT REFUGEES BECAUSE THE GENERAL
RISK THEY ARE FACING IS
CLEARLY -- YOU CAN SEE IT EVERY
DAY.
AND THE LAST POINT IS, THERE IS
MIXED FLOWS.
THERE IS REFUGEES, THERE ARE
MIGRANTS, THERE ARE MANY THINGS.
WE HAVE BEEN DEALING WITH THESE
MIXED FLOWS SINCE THE BEGINNING
OF OUR WORK HERE 100 YEARS AGO.

Steve says LET ME GO TO
CHRISTIAN ON THAT.
WE'VE HEARD ASYLUM SEEKERS,
REFUGEES.
IS THERE ONE TERM YOU THINK IS
BEST TO USE OVER THE OTHERS?

A split screen shows Steve to the left and Christian to the right with the caption “Kingston, Ontario.”
The caption changes to “Christian Leuprecht. Royal Military College of Canada.”

Christian says I
THINK IN CANADA WE TALK ABOUT
REFUGEES BECAUSE 95 PERCENT OF PEOPLE
THAT SHOW UP IN CANADA ARE
PEOPLE CANADA HAS PRESELECTED.
VARIOUS PEOPLE SHOW UP.
IN EUROPE IT IS THE OPPOSITE.
MOST OF THE PEOPLE SHOW UP ON
THEIR BORDERS.
WE THINK OF THIS GENERAL
CATEGORY OF REFUGEES, WHEREAS IN
EUROPE, WE SEE ASYLUM SEEKERS.
THE BULK OF PEOPLE WHO COME END
UP RETURNING TO THEIR OWN
COUNTRIES ONCE SOME SENSE OF
STABILITY HAS RETURNED.

Steve says JANICE, ARE YOU
PREPARED TO SAY THAT WHAT IS
HAPPENING IN THE WORLD TODAY
VIS-à-VIS THE PEOPLE WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT IS A FULL-BLOWN
CRISIS?

The caption changes to “Janice Stein. Munk School of Global Affairs.”

Janice says I CERTAINLY
AM, STEVE, AND REALLY, IT'S THE
LARGEST CRISIS OF THIS SORT THAT
WE'VE SEEN SINCE WORLD WAR TWO,
AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT SO
CHALLENGING FOR EVERYBODY TO
DEAL WITH.
WHY DO I SAY THE LARGEST SINCE
WORLD WAR TWO?
THERE WAS NO LIMIT TO THE NUMBER
OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD CHOOSE TO
MOVE OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST
RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF VIOLENCE
AND FEAR OF VIOLENCE.

Steve says NOBODY WANTS TO
STAY -- ALMOST NOBODY WANTS TO
STAY?

Janice says WE ARE
GETTING A HUGE UPSURGE FROM IRAQ
AS YOU SEE SYRIAN REFUGEES
SUCCESSFULLY GAIN ADMISSION INTO
EUROPE, SO THERE ARE NO
BOUNDARIES AROUND THIS PROBLEM,
UNLIKE WHAT WE HAD IN THOSE
EARLIER CHARTS IN RWANDA AND IN
VIETNAM -- WHEN WE TOOK BOAT
PEOPLE FROM VIETNAM.
THAT MAKES IT AN ENORMOUS
HUMANITARIAN CRISIS, WHICH IT
IS, BUT A HUGE POLICY CHALLENGE
AS WELL.

Steve says ALEXANDRA, I SUSPECT
SOME PEOPLE ARE WONDERING, THIS
SYRIAN CIVIL WAR HAS BEEN GOING
ON FOR FOUR YEARS.
THIS PHENOMENON THAT'S HAPPENING
RIGHT NOW, THIS CRISIS, IS --
YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY RECENT.
WHY THE UPTICK ALL OF A SUDDEN?

The caption changes to “Alexandra Kotyk. Lifeline Syria.”

Alexandra says I THINK WE
HAVE SEEN A HUGE INCREASE.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE REFUGEES, THE
SECOND LARGEST GROUP WAS AFGHAN,
BUT IT WAS MORE OF A SLOW
MOVEMENT, AND THEY HAD BEEN
SITTING AT NUMBER ONE FOR QUITE
A LONG TIME, AND THE SYRIAN
CRISIS SEEMS TO HAVE REVVED UP
EXTRAORDINARILY FAST.
AND SO PEOPLE I THINK KNEW OF
OTHER REFUGEE POPULATIONS, WERE
WORRIED ABOUT OTHER REFUGEE
POPULATIONS, AND WEREN'T REALLY
AWARE OF HOW QUICKLY AND
DEVASTATING THE SYRIAN CRISIS
WAS.

Janice says I MIGHT WANT
TO ADD ONE THING TO THAT
ALEXANDRA HAS SAID.
WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ARE THE
NUMBER OF NEIGHBOURING COUNTRIES
IN THE MIDDLE EAST THAT HAVE
TAKEN REFUGEES.
JORDAN IS AT CAPACITY.

Steve says JORDAN IS OVERRUN.

Janice says TURKEY.
FRANKLY, TURKEY IS STAGGERING
UNDER THIS AND ITS POLITICS ARE
STAGGERING UNDER THIS.
SO AS YOU EXHAUST THE NEAR
BORDER STATE CAPACITY TO TAKE
REFUGEES, THAT'S WHEN YOU SEE
THE GROUNDSWELL YOU'RE SEEING
NOW.

Francisco says WE
ARE NOT ONLY TALKING ABOUT FULL
CAPACITY BY THE GOVERNMENT OR BY
THE STATE, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
CIVIL SOCIETY THAT HAS BEEN
SWAMPED, YOU KNOW, AND THEY'RE
RESPONDING TO THIS WITH WHATEVER
THEY HAVE.
SO IN THAT CASE, WE ARE IN FRONT
OF A CRISIS FOR SURE.

Steve says THE LONG LIST OF
COUNTRIES HERE AND THE HIGH
NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING
TO GET OUT OF COUNTRIES AND MOVE
TO OTHER COUNTRIES, IS THIS A
SIGN THAT THE WORLD AS A WHOLE
IS PARTICULARLY UNSTABLE RIGHT
NOW?

Alexandra says I THINK
YOU'RE SEEING POPULATIONS THAT
WEREN'T ABLE TO GO HOME.
I MEAN, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE
END OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR,
PEOPLE WERE ABLE TO GO HOME OR
THEY WERE ABLE TO BE INTEGRATED
IN THE BRING COUNTRIES THEY
FOUND REFUGE IN.
AND AS THESE CONFLICTS STAYED,
PROTRACTED, THE SOMALI, BEING
THE THIRD GROUP, THAT'S BEEN
GOING ON FOR YEARS NOW.
WHEN YOU HAVE THE MIX OF IRAQIS
AND SYRIANS AND THE STABILITY IN
THOSE COUNTRIES HAS NEVER
STABILIZED.
I DON'T KNOW WHERE PEOPLE WOULD
GO.
THEY OBVIOUSLY, AS WAS MENTIONED
BY OTHERS, THEY'RE STAYING IN
THESE COUNTRIES THAT CAN'T HOST
THEM AND THEY DON'T SEE ANY
OTHER OPTION.
THAT'S WHY THEY END UP FLEEING
TO EUROPE.

Steve says JANICE, IF YOU LOOK
AT GRAPHIC 2 AGAIN, AFGHANISTAN
IS NUMBER TWO.
DOES THAT MEAN SINCE THE
CANADIAN TROOPS LEFT, THE PLACE
HAS FALLEN APART AND NOBODY CAN
GO HOME OR NOBODY FEELS SAFE
ANYMORE?

Janice says I THINK THE
TRAJECTORY IN AFGHANISTAN IS
DOWNWARD.
DESPITE YEARS AND YEARS AND
YEARS OF HERCULEAN EFFORT, IT IS
DOWNWARD AND THE VIOLENCE IS
GROWING.
LOOK AT THE TWO LARGEST SOURCES,
STEVE, THAT YOU SHOWED US.

Steve says SYRIA AND
AFGHANISTAN.

Janice says SYRIA AND
AFGHANISTAN.
VIOLENT CIVIL WARS GOING ON IN
BOTH FOR A PROTRACTED PERIOD OF
TIME.
SO, YES, THAT UPTICK IS CATCHING
PEOPLE'S ATTENTION BUT FRANKLY
IT IS NO SURPRISE.
YOU HAVE A PART OF THE WORLD
RIGHT NOW, THE MIDDLE EAST,
WHERE POLITICAL ORDER IS
BREAKING DOWN, AND YOU HAVE
COLLAPSED STATES.
WE'RE BEYOND FAILING STATES,
WE'RE INTO COLLAPSED STATES.
IT'S THESE KINDS OF ENVIRONMENTS
THAT GENERATE FLOWS ON THIS
ORDER OF MAGNITUDE WITH NO END
IN SIGHT, BY THE WAY.
NO END.

Steve says NO END IN SIGHT.
WE TRIED, WE MEANING OUR
MILITARY, TRIED TO BRING SOME
STABILITY TO THE SITUATION IN
AFGHANISTAN.
OUR MILITARY IS NOT THERE
ANYMORE, AND YOU'RE SAYING
AFGHANISTAN IS NOW FALLING
APART.
IS THAT TO SUGGEST THERE'S NO
MILITARY SOLUTION FOR WHATEVER
IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?

Janice says THAT'S A
BLACK AND WHITE STATEMENT, THERE
IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION.
LET'S PUT A LITTLE GRAY IN IT.

Steve says OKAY.

Janice says BECAUSE THE
SITUATIONS ARE DIFFERENT,
OBVIOUSLY.
THE OBVIOUS ONE IS SYRIA AND
IRAQ WHERE THERE ARE MULTIPLE
DESTABILIZERS.
IN SYRIA THERE ARE TWO BIG ONES
RIGHT NOW: THE GOVERNMENT
ITSELF, PRESIDENT BASHAR AL
ASSAD WHO HAS ATTACKED HIS OWN
POPULATION RELENTLESSLY, AND
ISIS.
EVERYBODY IS STRUGGLING.
HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THESE TWO
AT THE SAME TIME?
WHEN YOU GO AFTER ONE, YOU
EMPOWER THE OTHER ONE.
THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT SO
DIFFICULT.
THE FACT THAT EUROPE, CANADA,
AND THE UNITED STATES HAVE
STOPPED THE SPREAD OF ISIS TO
OTHER AREAS IS A GOOD THING
BECAUSE IF THEY HADN'T, WE WOULD
HAVE LARGER NUMBERS.
BUT IS THAT THE ANSWER?
NO, CERTAINLY NOT.

Steve says LET ME GO TO
CHRISTIAN WITH A FOLLOW-UP ON
THAT.
CLEARLY THE WORLD IS COMING
TOGETHER IN A WAY RIGHT NOW TO
CONSIDER A HUMANITARIAN RESPONSE
TO WHAT'S GOING ON IN SYRIA.
BUT, CHRISTIAN, YOU'RE AT THE
ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE, SO I
WANT TO CALL ON YOUR MILITARY
EXPERTISE IN ASKING WHETHER YOU
THINK THERE IS A MILITARY
SOLUTION TO WHAT WE'RE SEEING
RIGHT NOW.

Christian says WELL,
INHERENTLY THE MILITARY SOLUTION
HAS AT LEAST SOMEWHAT HELPED TO
CONTAIN THE SPREAD OF THE
CONFLICT, AND I THINK THAT'S ONE
THING CERTAINLY THAT THE WEST
CAN DO WITH SOME MILITARY
INTERVENTION, TRY TO CONTAIN THE
STRATEGY.
BUT WE ALSO KNOW FROM THE BALKAN
WARS THAT ONCE THE MILITARY
MIGHT SHOWS UP, IT'S OFTEN A WAY
OF CONVINCING THE FOLKS BEHIND
THE GUNS AT THE LOCAL LEVEL TO
PUT DOWN THEIR GUNS AND TRY TO
FIND SOME KIND OF BROADER
POLITICAL SETTLEMENT.
SO WE CAN ONLY HOPE THAT AS
THERE'S INTENSIFIED PRESSURE
THAT WE WILL GET THAT SORT OF
EFFORT ON THE GROUND BECAUSE
THERE IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION.
IT HAS TO BE A POLITICAL
SOLUTION IN THE END.

Steve says ALEXANDRA -- SORRY,
GO AHEAD, FRANCISCO.

Francisco says
THE DIMENSION OF THE MILITARY
ACTION IS POLITICAL.
SO WE ARE FORGETTING, THERE ARE
REPLYING DECISIONS THAT ARE MADE
HERE AND IN MANY OTHER COUNTRIES
TO GO AND IMPLEMENT PARTICULAR
WAYS THAN THE MILITARY
PARTICIPATION IN THAT PARTICULAR
COUNTRY.
AND THAT MILITARY PRESENCE HAS
POLITICAL EFFECTS EVERYWHERE.
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
TO SEPARATE THESE TO THE OTHER
ONE, IN MY OPINION, IS NOT
RIGHT.
SO WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THE
POLITICAL CONCEPT THAT WE ARE
GOING TO IMPLEMENT THROUGH MANY
OPTIONS: THE MILITARY OPTION,
THE HUMANITARIAN OPTION, THE
IMMIGRATION PROCESS, THE REFUGEE
PROCESS, THE BILATERAL
RELATIONSHIP WITH COUNTRIES,
PEACE TALKS.
NAME IT.
IT'S NOT POSSIBLE JUST TO
ISOLATE ONE ELEMENT AND SAY
THAT'S RIGHT OR WRONG, IS THERE
A MILITARY SOLUTION OR NOT,
BECAUSE IT'S NOT, NEVER HAS BEEN
TOTALLY A MILITARY SOLUTION IN
ANY OF THE CONFLICTS LATELY
AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

Steve says LET ME PUT A NEW
ISSUE ON THE TABLE HERE WHICH IS
THE POWER OF THE PICTURE.
AND I CAN'T RECALL A STORY IN MY
LIFETIME WHERE A SINGLE IMAGE
HAS HAD THE POWER TO GALVANIZE
PEOPLE AND TO CHANGE -- WELL,
HANG ON.
WAIT FOR ME TO FINISH THE
SENTENCE.
WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY IS, MORE
THAN TELEVISION.
THERE HAVE BEEN TELEVISION
IMAGES IN THE PAST THAT HAVE
GALVANIZED POPULATIONS BUT
IMAGES, STILL PICTURES.
YOU'VE ALL SEEN THE PICTURE OF
THAT POOR CHILD, THE 3-YEAR-OLD
WITH HIS FACE DOWN.
I'M NOT GOING TO SHOW THAT ONE
AGAIN.

Pictures of people camping at a railway station and trying to desperately get on a train appear on screen.

Steve says HERE ARE SOME OTHER PICTURES
THAT MAYBE YOU HAVEN'T SEEN.
THESE ARE FROM BUDAPEST,
HUNGARY, ASYLUM SEEKERS,
REFUGEES, CALL THEM WHAT YOU
WANT, AT A RAILWAY STATION NEAR
BUDAPEST.
WE HAVE A SERIES THAT WE CAN
SHOW.
YOU HAVE SEEN THOSE
CONFRONTATIONS ON TELEVISION
BETWEEN THE MILITARY PERSONNEL
TRYING TO KEEP PEOPLE OUT OF
HUNGARY AND, WOW, LOOK AT THE
PEOPLE TRYING TO FLEE DANGER AND
COME TO EUROPE AND TO A MORE
SANE SITUATION.
THOSE PICTURES TELL PART OF THE
STORY, ALEXANDRA, THEY DON'T
TELL THE WHOLE STORY.
AGAIN, BASED ON YOUR WORK, WHAT
ARE CONDITIONS LIKE FOR ASYLUM
SEEKERS NOW IN EUROPE?

The caption changes to “Seeking Asylum. Who should help?”

Alexandra says OBVIOUSLY
WITH JUST SO MANY PEOPLE AND THE
MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE, IT'S VERY
DIFFICULT.
I THINK THAT IF YOU CAN MAKE IT
WITHOUT, UNFORTUNATELY,
PERISHING ON THE SEAS, WHICH IS
WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE DO, A LOT
OF UNREPORTED DEATHS AT SEA,
STILL TRYING TO GET THROUGH ALL
THESE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AND
YOU'RE CROSSING BORDERS, WHEN
YOU'RE FLEEING YOU DON'T WORRY
ABOUT, BUT OBVIOUSLY THOSE
COUNTRIES ARE TRYING TO PROTECT
BORDERS, THAT'S WHAT WE SAW WITH
HUNGARY BEING AS DIFFICULT AS
THEY'VE BEEN BECAUSE THEY'RE
TRYING TO GET TO GERMANY.
THEN ONCE THEY GET TO GERMANY,
THERE ARE JUST SO MANY PEOPLE.
HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT MANY
BODIES, THAT MANY PEOPLE WHO
NEED ASYLUM WHO NEED TO GO
THROUGH A CLAIM PROCESS --

Steve says ALTHOUGH, THE DEPUTY
PRIME MINISTER OF GERMANY THE
OTHER DAY SAID WE COULD TAKE
800,000 A YEAR FOR YEARS TO
COME.

Alexandra says THAT WOULD
BE WONDERFUL.
I THINK THEY SHOULD BE AND THEY
SHOULD BE ENCOURAGING OTHER E.U.
COUNTRIES, BUT WHAT'S THE
ARRIVAL VERSUS THE ACTUAL BEING
ABLE TO INTEGRATE?
THAT SOMETIMES CAN BE -- PEOPLE
GET THERE, THEY'RE SAFE, BUT
THEN HOW QUICKLY CAN THEY
INTEGRATE AND START THEIR LIVES
OVER AGAIN?

Steve says LET'S STATE THE
OBVIOUS, CHRISTIAN.
IS THERE ANY QUESTION IN YOUR
MIND THAT THINGS ARE BETTER FOR
MIGRANTS WHEN THEY ARRIVE IN A
WESTERN COUNTRY, EVEN IF IT'S
DIFFICULT, THAN WHERE THEY CAME
FROM?
IS THAT OBVIOUS TO SAY?

Christian says WELL,
THE DIFFICULTY OF THE JOURNEY
SHOWS US JUST HOW TERRIBLE
CONDITIONS ARE WHERE PEOPLE ARE
LEAVING, AND THOSE ARE THE
PICTURES THAT WE'RE NOT TALKING
ABOUT, THE 2 MILLION PEOPLE WHO
HAVE LEFT FOR TURKEY, THE
MILLION IN LEBANON, A COUNTRY
HALF THE SIZE OF TURKEY, THE
600,000 IN JORDAN.
THE WORLD FOOD ORGANIZATION LAST
WEEK HAD TO STOP FEEDING A THIRD
OF THOSE PEOPLE BECAUSE THERE'S
NOT ENOUGH MONEY TO GO AROUND TO
BUY FOOD FOR THEM.
SO JUST HOW DESPERATE THOSE
CIRCUMSTANCES ARE.
WHILE I FEEL FOR THE REFUGEES
THAT ARE MAKING THEIR WAY TO
EUROPE, IT'S THE FRAIL, THE OLD,
THE MOTHERS, THE CHILDREN, BY
AND LARGE WHAT WE SEE, 75 PERCENT MEN
AND OF THOSE THEY LARGELY TEND
TO BE YOUNG MEN.
WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE A
BALANCED RESPONSE TO THIS
CRISIS, NOT JUST ONE THAT
FOCUSES, THAT'S DRIVEN BY THE
PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT OF A
PICTURE OF A 3-YEAR-OLD DEAD
CHILD ON A BEACH.

Steve says JANICE?

Janice says JUST TO
FOLLOW ON, STEVE.
THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOVING RIGHT
NOW ARE THE HEALTHIEST, THE BEST
EQUIPPED --

Steve says YOUNGEST.

Janice says THE YOUNGEST,
WHO HAVE UNDERTAKEN AN ARDUOUS
JOURNEY.
WE HAVE TO SEE THAT.
LEFT BEHIND IN THE COUNTRY,
EITHER AS DISPLACED PEOPLE OR IN
REFUGEE CAMPS, ARE OLDER PEOPLE,
WOMEN, CHILDREN, AND, IF WE JUST
STOP FOR ONE SECOND ON THE FACT
THAT CHRISTIAN JUST MENTIONED,
THE WORLD FOOD PROGRAM HAD TO
STOP FEEDING THESE PEOPLE IN
REFUGEE CAMPS BECAUSE COUNTRIES
LIKE OURS ARE NOT GIVING ENOUGH
MONEY.

Steve says THAT'S ONE THING WE
COULD DO RIGHT AWAY.

Janice says THAT IS
ASTOUNDING TO ME AND THAT'S NOT
TO DIMINISH THE IMPORTANT WORK
THAT ALEXANDRA IS DOING IN
GALVANIZING THIS COUNTRY TO
SPONSOR REFUGEE FAMILIES, BUT AN
IMMEDIATE NEED IS TO PROVIDE
MINIMAL RATIONS: FOOD AND CLEAN
DRINKING WATER IN REFUGEE CAMPS
AND GOVERNMENTS, THEY ARE SHORT
IN CONCERN.
THAT'S THE IMMEDIATE THING WE
COULD DO.

Francisco says
ALSO, YOU SEE THE LARGE NUMBER
OF PEOPLE ARE MEN BECAUSE IN A
CIVIL WAR, THE FIGHT IS IN THE
VAST MAJORITY YOUNG MEN.
THEY ARE ESCAPING FOR VIOLENCE,
FOR MANY THINGS.
THE PEOPLE THAT ARE KILLED FIRST
IN THESE CONFLICTS ARE YOUNG
MEN.
SO IN THAT CASE, THE PUSH FACTOR
IS THERE.
AND THE GENDER COMPONENT, AND WE
HAVE TO ANALYSE IT IN THAT
PARTICULAR WAY.
OF COURSE, WE HAVE TO HAVE
SPECIAL POLICIES AND PROGRAMS TO
TRY TO HELP THE PEOPLE THAT
DON'T HAVE THE ENERGY, DON'T
HAVE THE MONEY, DON'T HAVE THE
RESOURCES TO ESCAPE FROM THAT
PARTICULAR SITUATION.
OF COURSE WE HAVE.
BUT WE HAVE TO HAVE A HOLISTIC
APPROACH.
THIS IS A CIVIL WAR.
THIS IS A SOCIETY THAT IS IN --
WHO RUNS BETTER?

Janice says MEN.

Alexandra says LET'S NOT
DIMINISH THE FACT WE ALSO ARE
AWARE THAT SOMETIMES ONLY ONE
FAMILY MEMBER CAN MAKE THE TRIP
AND SOMETIMES YOU SEND THE
STRONGEST PERSON OUT THERE TO
HELP -- THAT'S WHAT THE KURDI
FAMILY SAID, THAT THE ONE OLDER
BROTHER WENT WITH THE HOPES THAT
HE COULD BRING THE REST OF HIS
FAMILY LATER ON BECAUSE --

Janice says HERE IS THE
PULL FACTOR, STEVE, WE'RE
BEGINNING TO SEE, WHICH IS GOING
TO MAKE THIS MORE COMPLICATED.
IN IRAQ RIGHT NOW, IN AREAS
WHERE THE VIOLENCE IS NOT AS
INTENSE AS IN OTHER PARTS, YOUNG
MEN ARE LEAVING OR SENDING --
THEY CHOOSE ONE FAMILY MEMBER,
THE STRONGEST, THE ONE MOST
LIKELY TO SURVIVE THIS TERRIBLE
JOURNEY, IN THE HOPE THAT
PERSON'S GOING TO GET ASYLUM AND
THEN BE ABLE TO SPONSOR THE REST
OF THE FAMILY.

Steve says HOW IS THAT GOING?

Janice says WELL, YOU
KNOW, IT'S A TERRIBLE PROCESS,
FRANKLY, AND WE HAVEN'T SAID
MUCH ABOUT THIS, BUT EUROPE IS
DISORGANIZED.
A GREAT ASSET FOR EUROPE, WHICH
WAS AN OPEN, UNIFIED BORDER, IS
A HUGE LIABILITY IN THIS,
BECAUSE THEY'VE SKEWED THE
SYSTEM.
RIGHT NOW THE RULE IS: YOU APPLY
FOR ASYLUM THE FIRST TIME YOU
CROSS INTO EUROPE.
THAT PUTS COUNTRIES LIKE
GREECE -- WE DON'T NEED TO TALK
ABOUT GREECE.
HUNGARY, WHICH HAS FRANKLY SOME
OF THE MOST ANTI-IMMIGRANT
SENTIMENT IN ALL OF EUROPE RIGHT
ON THE FRONT LINES.
AND CHANCELLOR MERKEL HAS BEEN
STRUGGLING TO GET THE REST OF
EUROPE TO SHARE THE BURDEN.
YOU SEE THE REACTIONS TO THAT.
YOU UNDERSTAND HOW COMPLICATED
THIS PROCESS THAT ALEXANDRA IS
TALKING ABOUT OF INTEGRATION.
THERE IS ANTI-IMMIGRANT
SENTIMENT, LAYERED OVER, LET'S
BE CANDID HERE, BY ANTI-MUSLIM
SENTIMENT IN COMMUNITIES WHO SEE
THEM THROUGH A VERY DIFFERENT
SECURE LENS AND THAT'S PLAYING
INTO THE POLITICS IN A VICIOUS
WAY.

Steve says CHRISTIAN, WHAT IS
IT THAT CANADA CAN OR SHOULD BE
DOING RIGHT NOW TO HELP THIS
SITUATION?

Christian says
INHERENTLY THIS IS CHALLENGING.
THE PEOPLE WHO SAY WE NEED TO
CHANGE THE RULES WOULD ALSO BE
THE FIRST PEOPLE WHO WOULD
COMPLAIN, FOR INSTANCE, SOMEONE
WHO HAD COMMITTED A WAR CRIME
ENDED UP SLIPPING INTO THE
COUNTRY.
BUT IT DOES APPEAR ONE OF THE
CHALLENGES INHERENTLY WHEN THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GOES THROUGH
REPEATED SERIES OF CUTS THAT WE
HAVE CUT SOME KEY CAPACITY IN
MANY DEPARTMENTS AND IT WOULD
SUGGEST THERE MIGHT BE BOTH A
CAPACITY PROBLEM AND AN
EXPERTISE CHALLENGE IN TERMS OF
TRYING TO SPEED UP THIS PROCESS.

Steve says HMM.
JANICE?

Janice says THERE ARE
OBVIOUS THINGS WE CAN DO.
ONE, BUMP UP FUNDING OF AGENCIES
WORKING WITH REFUGEES ON THE
GROUND.
THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL AND
EMERGENT.
WE NEED TO DEPLOY TEAMS.
THE REAL HOLDUP HERE IS WE'RE IN
A VICIOUS CYCLE.
WE DON'T ACCEPT REFUGEES UNLESS
THEY'RE U.N.H.C.R.-CERTIFIED,
HIGH COMMISSION FOR REFUGEES.

Steve says HIGH COMMISSION FOR
REFUGEES.

Janice says THEY WON'T
CERTIFY UNLESS WE TELL THEM
WE'LL ACCEPT THEM.
WE NEED TO PUT OUR OWN TEAMS ON
THE GROUND, MOVE PAST THESE
BARRIERS RIGHT NOW WHICH WE CAN
DO ON AN EMERGENCY BASIS, AND
QUADRUPLE THE RATE AT WHICH
WE'RE PROCESSING REFUGEES IN THE
FIELD.
THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT
CANADIANS' WILLINGNESS TO STEP
UP AND GET ENGAGED HERE.
THERE ARE LONG WAITING LISTS OF
PEOPLE FOR FAMILIES.
THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO NOW DEPLOY
PEOPLE, AND IT CAN DO IT -- IT'S
DONE IT IN THE PAST -- TO FILL
OUT THAT LIST.

Steve says DOES IT MAKE IT MORE
COMPLICATED TO DO ALL THIS,
ALEXANDRA, BECAUSE WE'RE IN THE
MIDDLE OF AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN
AND THEREFORE THIS HAS BECOME --
IT'S A BIT OF A --

Janice says THEY SHOULD
TAKE IT OFF THE TABLE.

The caption changes to “Seeking Asylum. Canada’s role.”

Steve says IT'S BECOME A
POLITICAL FOOTBALL BECAUSE ONE
SIDE SAYS WE'RE GOING TO DO THIS
AND THE OTHER SAYS WE'RE GOING
TO DO MORE AND THE THIRD SAYS
WE'RE GOING TO DO MORE.

Alexandra says AND THE
REFUGEES ARE TRAPPED IN THE
CENTRE.

Francisco says WE
ARE IN A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN.
THAT'S SOMETHING THEN EVERYBODY
IS USING IT IN A WAY POLITICALLY
TO TALK ABOUT THINGS.

Steve says IF NOT FOR THE
CAMPAIGN --

Francisco says
MAYBE WE WILL BE TALKING IN A
TOTALLY DIFFERENT WAY.
THIS IS A POLITICAL APPROACH TO
A VERY HUMANITARIAN CRISIS, AND
THAT'S ONE OF THE KEY PROBLEMS
THAT WE HAVE.
EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT
NUMBERS.
EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT WHAT
THEY ARE GOING TO DO AFTER
OCTOBER.
BUT NOBODY DOES ANYTHING IN THIS
PARTICULAR TIME THAT WE NEED TO
BRING THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE TO CANADA.

Steve says LET ME BRING SOME
POLLING DATA TO THIS, BECAUSE
THE ANGUS REID INSTITUTE
SURVEYED CANADIANS ON WHAT
CANADIANS THOUGHT OUGHT TO BE
DONE RIGHT NOW.
CAN WE BRING THIS CHART UP HERE?
WHAT CAN CANADA DO.

Steve reads data from a poll by Angus Reid Institute, September 4, 2015.

He says 90 PERCENT OF CANADIANS HAVE SOME
AWARENESS OF THE ISSUE, WHICH IS
A VERY HIGH NUMBER.
SO PEOPLE KNOW THERE'S A
PROBLEM.
64 PERCENT EVEN SAY THEY'RE FOLLOWING
IT VERY CLOSELY.
70 PERCENT SAYS CANADA HAS A ROLE TO
PLAY.
OKAY.
WITH ALL OF THAT IN PLACE, WHAT
DO WE DO?
76 PERCENT SAY CANADA SHOULD SEND
NURSES, DOCTORS, ARMED FORCES,
ET CETERA, AND GET INVOLVED.
63 PERCENT SAY CANADIAN INDIVIDUALS AND
ORGANIZATIONS SHOULD SPONSOR
MORE REFUGEES.
64 PERCENT SAY THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT
SHOULD TAKE IN MORE REFUGEES.
NOW, HERE'S WHERE IT GETS MORE
COMPLICATED: 44 PERCENT SAY WE SHOULD
OFFER FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO
EUROPE BUT WE SHOULD NOT TAKE IN
MORE REFUGEES.
23 PERCENT SAY WE SHOULD DO NOTHING.
MY FIRST QUESTION, ALEXANDRA,
IS: WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE
23 PERCENT WHO SAY WE SHOULD DO
NOTHING?

Alexandra says WELL, I
HAVE TO ASSUME THAT THEY DON'T
UNDERSTAND THAT WE'RE IN A
GLOBAL WORLD AND WE'RE ALL
AFFECTED BY WHAT HAPPENS
OVERSEAS, EVEN THOUGH IT MIGHT
SEEM VERY FAR AWAY, OBVIOUSLY
WE'RE AFFECTED BY THE REFUGEES.
LEAVING ASIDE CANADA'S LONG
HISTORY OF BEING A HUMANITARIAN
COUNTRY THAT SHOULD PROVIDE
SUPPORT JUST BECAUSE WE AS
CANADIANS FEEL THAT'S OUR ROLE,
I THINK THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO
UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT HAPPENS IN
THE MIDDLE EAST HAS A DIRECT
IMPACT ON OUR COUNTRY AS WELL.

Steve says CHRISTIAN, IT MAY BE
POSSIBLE, BUT SOME OF THAT 23 PERCENT
FEEL THAT WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING
ABOUT THESE REFUGEES AND WHO
KNOWS HOW MANY POTENTIAL
TRIVIALITIES ARE HIDING AMONG --
TERRORISTS ARE HIDING AMONG THEM
AND THAT'S WHY THEY DON'T WANT
THEM ON OUR SHORES.
IS THAT POSSIBLE?

Christian says THEY
THINK WE LEAVE IN ISOLATION.
I THINK THESE KNOCK-ON EFFECTS
ARE IMPORTANT.
THE LEBANESE CIVIL WAR TOOK 15
YEARS AND THE SYRIAN CIVIL WAR,
WHO KNOWS HOW LONG THIS
PARTICULAR CONFLICT IS GOING TO
TAKE, GIVEN THE STRATEGIC
IMPORTANCE.
AS WE SEE IN YOUR CHARTS, THE
GROWING NUMBER OF DISPLACED
PEOPLE THAT ARE PUTTING PRESSURE
ON THE REFUGEE CAMPS, THESE
FLOWS ARE NOT ABOUT TO STOP.
WE NEED CERTAINLY A MULTI-TIERED
SUSTAINED RESPONSE TO THIS THAT
GOES FROM EVERYTHING ON THE
GROUND THAT JANICE MENTIONED TO
HERE IN CANADA TRYING TO SEE
WHAT WE CAN DO.
TO DO THIS ALSO RESPONSIBLY.
TO MAKE SURE THAT WE TRY TO
RESETTLE PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HAVE
CONNECTIONS BECAUSE WE KNOW FROM
RESEARCH THAT THEY INTEGRATE
BETTER AND ESTABLISH THEMSELVES
BETTER.
WE ALSO I THINK NEED TO BE AWARE
THAT CANADA ALREADY HAS THE
HIGHEST LEGAL PER CAPITA
IMMIGRATION OF ANY COUNTRY IN
THE WORLD, AND SO THAT CANADA
ALREADY DOES A SUBSTANTIAL
SHARE, OVER 250,000 PEOPLE A
YEAR, COMING TO THIS COUNTRY, IN
TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT IT DOES
HAVE AN APPROACH TO THOSE
INDIVIDUALS WHO DO WISH TO COME
TO CANADA.
IT'S IN THE TOP 3 COUNTRIES IN
TERMS OF U.N.H.C.R.
RESETTLEMENT.
SO CANADA DOES PLAY ITS SHARE.
THE QUESTION, OF COURSE, IS IN
THIS SORT OF A CRISIS, THERE IS
LIKELY POTENTIAL TO DO MORE
BASED BOTH ON OUR POPULATION
BASE AND OUR ECONOMIC CAPACITY.

Steve says LET ME GO TO
FRANCISCO WITH A FOLLOW-UP.
YOU MADE THE DISTINCTION OF
IMMIGRATION VERSUS REFUGEES,
THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT STREAMS
OF PEOPLE.
IF WE OPEN THE DOORS TO ASSIST
THE CRISIS THAT EVERYBODY AGREES
IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW FOR
REFUGEES, DO WE RUN THE RISK OF
UPSETTING OR CREATING A DOUBLE
STANDARD FOR IMMIGRANTS, SOME OF
WHOM HAVE WAITED A VERY LONG
TIME TO COME IN AND ARE TAKING
THEIR TIME TO DO SO?

Francisco says IT
HAS BEEN THE OPPOSITE.
MANY REFUGEES, THEY ARE VERY
QUALIFIED IMMIGRANTS, THEY HAVE
CHOSEN TO GO IN THE IMMIGRATION
PROGRAM AND COME TO CANADA DUE
TO PERSECUTION BACK HOME.
MANY PEOPLE FROM MANY COUNTRIES
HAVE DONE THAT.
SO REFUGEES, WE HAVE TO KEEP IT
FOR THE PEOPLE THAT ARE REALLY
IN NEED, THAT THEY DON'T HAVE
ANY OTHER MECHANISMS OR
QUALIFICATIONS TO COME TO
CANADA, TO OPEN UP AND TO OPEN
UP THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

Steve says HOW MANY DO YOU
THINK WE CAN TAKE A YEAR?
HOW MANY REFUGEES?

Francisco says
LET ME GIVE YOU MY EXAMPLE.
EIGHT YEARS AGO, TEN YEARS AGO,
WE WERE RECEIVING ONLY IN THE
CITY OF CANADA -- IN THE CITY OF
TORONTO, 500 ASYLUM SEEKERS A
MONTH.
NOW, WITH THE REFUGEE REFORMS,
WITH THE CHANGES IN ALL OF THESE
PROCESSES AND THE COMPLICATION
OF THIS, WE DON'T RECEIVE EVEN
250 REFUGEES A MONTH IN THE CITY
OF TORONTO.
SO WE HAVE A HUGE SPACE TO TAKE
PEOPLE IN THE CITY OF TORONTO.
WE HAVE USED THE INTAKE OF
ASYLUM SEEKERS IN CANADA, 50 PERCENT IN
THE LAST THREE OR FOUR YEARS.
SO THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS TOTALLY
THERE THAT WE CAN USE, SOCIAL
SERVICES, EVERYTHING.
WE HAVE ALSO THE SETTLEMENT
ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN
DOING THIS FOR YEARS.
AND NOW WE HAVE ALL THE CITIES
AND PROVINCES TRYING TO KICK IN
WITH CIVIL AND SOCIAL SUPPORT
FOR THE INTAKE OF MORE REFUGEES.
WE HAVE CAPACITY FOR MANY --

Steve says CAN WE DO 10,000 A
YEAR?

Alexandra says EASILY.
(Mixed voices)

Steve says CANADA HAS THE
INFRASTRUCTURE FOR 50,000
REFUGEES A YEAR?

Alexandra says WE DID 60
OVER A YEAR, A COUPLE YEARS, IN
THE INDO CHINA MOVEMENT.
WE'RE SEEING INCREDIBLE NUMBERS
CONTACTING US SAYING THEY WANT
TO HELP.
CIVIL SOCIETY IS DOING THE
LION'S SHARE OF THE WORK,
OBVIOUSLY THE SETTLEMENT
AGENCIES NEED TO BE THERE, THERE
NEEDS TO BE AN OVERSEAS PROCESS.
THE SUPPORT THEY'RE GETTING FROM
CIVIL SOCIETY.
WHY COULDN'T YOU TAP INTO THAT
AND GET INCREASED NUMBERS?

Janice says LET ME RAISE
ONE OTHER ISSUE.
VERY RECENTLY, WE ALL REMEMBER
THE TSUNAMI, THE GOVERNMENT SAID
IT WOULD STEP UP AND MATCH THE
DONATIONS THAT CIVIL SOCIETY PUT
FORWARD.
WHY ISN'T THERE A MATCHING
PROGRAM IN A GLOBAL CRISIS LIKE
THIS, WHERE FOR EVERY DOLLAR
THAT CIVIL SOCIETY IS INVESTING
IN SPONSORSHIP, THE GOVERNMENT
PARTNERS?

Steve says YOU'VE ASKED THE
QUESTION.
WHAT'S THE ANSWER?

Janice says I DON'T KNOW.
I DON'T KNOW.
BUT I THINK -- IT'S DIFFICULT
FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND HOW WE CAN
RESPOND IN ONE WAY TO A TSUNAMI
BUT WE CANNOT RESPOND IN ANOTHER
WAY TO THE FLOWS OF PEOPLE THAT
WE ARE SEEING MOVE RIGHT NOW
UNDER TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE
CONDITIONS.
SO I THINK WE HAVE THE
INFRASTRUCTURE.
WE'RE A RICH COUNTRY.
WE ARE ONE OF THE WORLD'S RICH
COUNTRIES AND WE HAVE AN ENGAGED
CIVIL SOCIETY.
WE'RE MISSING ONE PIECE.

Francisco says
HOW MANY SPARE ROOMS DO WE HAVE
IN THE CITY OF TORONTO, IN
CANADA?
WHY DON'T WE HAVE A CAMPAIGN
THAT SAYS: DO YOU HAVE A SPARE
ROOM?
DO YOU WANT TO SHARE IT WITH A
SYRIAN FAMILY.
YOU HAVE A PUBLIC LIST WHERE
PEOPLE GO AND REGISTER THEIR
CAPACITIES TO TAKE PEOPLE AND
YOU WILL SEE THE REACTION OF
CANADA.
WHEN I CAME TO CANADA, THEY
BROUGHT ME FROM EL SALVADOR.
BECAUSE OF THE PROGRAM, BECAUSE
OF THE COURAGE OF THE -- GOING
INTO THE COUNTRY AND TRYING TO
SELECT PEOPLE THAT WERE AT RISK,
THAT COUNTRY -- THAT PROGRAM IS
GONE.
SO WHAT IS OUR RESPONSE TO THIS
CRISIS IN THE SAME WAY?
WE ARE NOT DOING IT.
SO IN MY OPINION, CANADA CAN DO
MANY THINGS MORE AND WE HAVE THE
CAPACITY TO TAKE AS MANY
REFUGEES AS WE CAN, 100,000.
WE CAN TAKE IT.
JUST TAKE THE NUMBER OF PRIVATE
SPONSORSHIP THAT PEOPLE HAVE.
MORE THAN 30,000 ALREADY.
THAT'S THE CAPACITY AND YOU CAN
DOUBLE THAT ONE IF YOU TAKE --
EVERY PARTY HAS TO TAKE A FAMILY
AND YOU TAKE EVERY CHURCH HAS TO
TAKE A FAMILY.
EVERY UNION HAS TO TAKE A
FAMILY.
EVERY SCHOOL CAN TAKE A FAMILY.
YOU CAN OPEN UP AND WE CAN BRING
THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF
REFUGEES.
THE ISSUE IS NOT THAT.
THE CIVIL SOCIETY IS READY TO
TAKE IT.

Steve says I'M GOING TO ASK
CHRISTIAN A VERY BLUNT QUESTION:
ARE WE NOT DOING THAT BECAUSE
THESE PEOPLE ARE MUSLIMS?

Christian says I
THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS A
DIFFERENT RESPONSE IN CANADA
THAN WHAT WE SEE IN GERMANY.
IN GERMANY WE HAD AN EXECUTIVE
DECISION BY THE POLITICAL
EXECUTIVE AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL
THAT IS NOW BEING IMPOSED ON THE
STATES AND THE CITIES AND WE SEE
PUSH-BACK FROM WESTFALIA, THERE
ARE COMPLAINTS ABOUT NOT ENOUGH
SUPPORT AND THE IMMENSE NUMBERS
OF PEOPLE THAT ARE REQUIRED TO
TAKE IN THE DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM.
WHAT I SEE I THINK IN CANADA IS
MORE OF A BOTTOM-UP MEASURE.
WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT CITIES
AND PROVINCES ARE ON BOARD, THAT
THEY PUT FORWARD THE NUMBERS
THAT THEY THINK THEY HAVE THE
CAPACITY TO FUND AND TO DEAL
WITH AND TO COPE WITH AND TO
INTEGRATE, AND FROM THAT THEN
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT I THINK
CAN GENERATE A TARGET, AND I DO
THINK THAT WHILE THERE ARE
CERTAIN ETHNIC GROUPS THAT DO
DRIVE CERTAIN CONSTITUENCIES,
PARTICULARLY IN MONTRéAL AND
TORONTO, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE
THE SYRIAN CONSTITUENCY IS NOT
STRONG ENOUGH TO DRIVE THE
POLITICAL ELEMENTS, AND YET I
THINK WE'RE A DIVERSE COUNTRY
AND WE DON'T HAVE A PAST
HISTORY, AT LEAST NOT A RECENT
PAST HISTORY, OF DISCRIMINATING
ON RELIGIOUS OR ETHNIC
BACKGROUNDS IN THE LAST 60 OR SO
YEARS, AND SO I'M CONFIDENT THAT
RELIGION IS NOT WHAT IS
DECISION-MAKING DRIVER HERE.

Steve says LET ME ASK JANICE
THE MORE GENEROUS QUESTION HERE.
WHEN FRANCISCO CAME HERE, A
THIRD IF NOT MORE OF CANADA WAS
CATHOLIC.
HE WAS NOT CONSIDERED QUOTE,
UNQUOTE, THE OTHER.
WHAT'S THE MUSLIM POPULATION OF
CANADA?
ONE OR TWO PERCENT?

Janice says YES.

Steve says IS THAT A PROBLEM?

Janice says YES.
TO BE BLUNT, I DON'T THINK THERE
IS ANY DOUBT THAT THIS IS
PLAYING INTO THIS AND
EXACERBATING THIS CRISIS.
THAT'S WHAT I SAID EARLIER.
IT IS TIED UP WITH SECURITY
ISSUES.
A LOT OF THE DISCUSSION OF
PROCESSING IS AROUND THE LEVEL
OF SCREENING.
PEOPLE IN EL SALVADOR WERE NEVER
SUBJECTED TO.
AND AGAIN, I THINK THIS IS
SOMETHING WE HAVE TO FACE
SQUARELY AND HONESTLY AND RISE
ABOVE, FRANKLY.
THERE ARE SOLUTIONS TO ALL THESE
PROBLEMS THAT REALLY REVOLVE
AROUND SENDING OUR OWN PEOPLE
INTO THE FIELD, CONNECTING
REFUGEE FAMILIES TO FAMILIES
THAT ARE ALREADY HERE.
IT WOULD NOT -- WE HAVE TO ADMIT
THAT THIS IS A FACTOR, FACE
OURSELVES, AND SAY WE NEED TO
RISE ABOVE THIS.
BECAUSE, BY THE WAY, THE SAME
THINGS WERE SAID ABOUT HUNGARIAN
REFUGEES.
THERE WAS A REAL FEAR THAT
HUNGARIAN REFUGEES WOULD EMBED
IN THEM COMMUNIST SPIES.
THERE WERE ISSUES WITH THE
VIETNAMESE BOAT PEOPLE.
THERE WERE SECURITY ISSUES
AROUND THAT.
WE JUST FORGET THOSE
DISCUSSIONS.
THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SECURITY
FEARS BUT GOVERNMENTS ROSE ABOVE
IT AND MANAGED IT.

Steve says HOW OFTEN DO THOSE
FEARS END UP COMING TRUE?

Janice says WE HAVE TO
FACE THE FACT WE MAY MAKE A
MISTAKE.
I THINK THAT'S HONEST WITH THE
CANADIAN PUBLIC, THAT A MISTAKE
MAY OCCUR.
AND IF THAT MISTAKE OCCURS, THAT
DOES NOT INVALIDATE BOTH THE
OBLIGATION AND THE DESIRE OF THE
CANADIAN PUBLIC TO RUN THE RISK
OF THAT MISTAKE IN ORDER TO TAKE
ANOTHER 50,000 PEOPLE WHO WILL
BECOME PRODUCTIVE CITIZENS IN
THIS COUNTRY AND ENRICH THE
COUNTRY.

Steve says ALEXANDRA, HOW WELL
ARE WE DOING RIGHT NOW LIVING UP
TO OUR LONG STANDING REPUTATION
AS BEING A SAFE HARBOUR WHEN
THINGS GO SOUTH?

Alexandra says NOT
PARTICULARLY WELL.
I MEAN THE MOST NUMBER I'VE
HEARD OF SYRIANS ARRIVING IS
250 -- OR, SORRY, 2,500, AND
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF
PEOPLE THAT ARE INTERESTED IN
SPONSORING, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE
CASES THAT ARE OVERSEAS, BECAUSE
WE KNOW THERE ARE WAIT TIMES OF
6 MONTHS TO A YEAR AND A HALF
FOR PEOPLE TO ARRIVE IN CANADA.
THAT'S FOR FAMILIES THAT HAVE
PUT CASES IN, FRIENDS HERE,
SPONSORING GROUPS, CHURCHES,
UNIONS, ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE
DESPERATE TO WELCOME THESE
PEOPLE, AND THEY'RE NOT
ARRIVING, AND OUR OVERALL
COMMITMENT FROM THIS POINT FROM
OUR GOVERNMENT IS ONLY 10,000
OVER THE NEXT THREE YEARS?
THAT'S CRAZY.
THAT'S NOT ENOUGH, REALLY.

Steve says FRANCISCO, LAST WORD
TO YOU.
THOSE WHO -- THOSE WHO STILL
HAVE DISTRUST FOR THIS
SITUATION, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO
SAY TO THEM?

Francisco says
THIS COUNTRY CHANGES PEOPLE.
WHEN I CAME TO CANADA, I WAS
PART OF A CIVIL WAR.
VIOLENCE WAS SURROUNDING ME.
I DIDN'T KNOW IF I AM GOING TO
GO BACK TO MY HOUSE ALIVE.
MY KIDS WERE THREATENED.
MY FRIENDS WERE KIDNAPPED.
MY FRIENDS WERE KILLED.
LOOK WHO I AM.
A VERY PEACEFUL PERSON, TRYING
TO DO AS BEST AS I CAN TO HELP
THIS COUNTRY TO REACT TO
SITUATIONS LIKE I FACED WHEN I
WAS YOUNG.
SO I THINK A PERSON DESERVES A
CHANCE AND IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO
SAY, YOU ARE THIS AND THIS.
YOU DON'T HAVE A CHANCE.
GIVE THEM A CHANCE AND THEY WILL
PROVE YOU RIGHT EVERY SINGLE
TIME.
I WORK WITH THOSE PEOPLE.
I WORK WITH REFUGEES.
I WORK WITH PEOPLE THAT HAVE
BEEN ACCUSED OF MANY THINGS.
GIVE THEM A CHANCE AND THEY WILL
BUILD THIS COUNTRY WAY MUCH
BETTER.

Steve says FRANCISCO, YOU GET
THE LAST WORD.
GOOD WORDS, IF I MIGHT SAY.
CHRISTIAN LEUPRECHT, WE THANK
YOU FOR BEING ON THE LINE FROM
KINGSTON, ONTARIO.
JANICE STEIN HERE IN OUR STUDIO,
FRANCISCO RICO-MARTINEZ, AND
ALEXANDRA KOTYK.
THANKS SO MUCH, EVERYBODY.

Watch: Seeking Asylum