Transcript: David Mulroney: The Far Eastern Colossus | Mar 31, 2015

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his forties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, pale blue shirt, and striped blue tie. Behind him, a wall screen reads “The Agenda, with Steve Paikin.”

Steve says NO ONE CAN FORETELL THE STORY
OF THE 21st CENTURY BUT IT
IS A SAFE BET THAT CHINA IS
GOING TO BE PLAYING A STARRING
ROLE IN IT.
IS CANADA PREPARED FOR THAT?
YES, WE HAVE HAD A CLOSE AND
MOSTLY PEACEFUL RELATIONSHIP
WITH OUR AMERICAN SUPER-POWER
NEIGHBOUR FOR 200 YEARS BUT WE
SHARE ONE OF OUR OFFICIAL
LANGUAGES AND MANY OF OUR MOST
CHERISHED VALUES WITH THEM.
CHINA IS VERY DIFFERENT CUP OF
TEA.
DAVID MULRONEY, CANADA'S FORMER
AMBASSADOR TO CHINA HAS THOUGHT
MUCH ABOUT THIS RELATIONSHIP AND
TALKS ABOUT IT IN HIS NEW BOOK
“MIDDLE POWER MIDDLE KINGDOM,
WHAT CANADIANS NEED TO KNOW
ABOUT CHINA IN THE 21st
CENTURY.”

A picture of the book pops up on screen. The cover is bright red, with yellow stars as in the Chinese flag, and it has a white strip with a maple leaf in the middle.

Steve continues AND HE JOINS US NOW.
HE IS HERE AT TVO, NICE TO HAVE
YOU HERE.

David is in his late fifties, clean-shaven, with short, side-parted white hair. He wears a gray suit, pale pink shirt, and a patterned brown tie.

David says GREAT TO BE HERE STEVE, THANK
YOU.

Steve says YOU ARE RELATED TO BRIAN
MULRONEY.

David smiles and says IN THE MIST OF CANADIAN IRISH
HISTORY...

Steve says THAT IS NOT what I MEAN.
WHAT IS YOUR BROTHER'S NAME?

David smiles and says BRIAN MULRONEY.

Steve says HE IS NOT THE FORMER PM OF
CANADA.

David says Not the last time I checked.

Steve says and let’s also confirm.
You’re a MULRONEY AND THE FORMER
PM IS MULRONEY.

David says That’s a subject of many disputes,
but I'M STICKING BY MULRONEY.

Steve says YOU HAVE HAD SOME DEALINGS
WITH THE FORMER PM, WHAT WAS THE
BRIEFING HE GAVE YOU AFTER THE
GERALD FORD FUNERAL?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "David Mulroney. Former Canadian Ambassador to China."

David says When THE FORMER PRESIDENT PASSED
AWAY I WAS WORKING IN PCO FOR
PRIME MINISTER HARPER'S FOREIGN
POLICY ADVISORY AND I WAS ASKED
TO SEE IF THE FORMER PRIME
MINISTER MULRONEY COULD ATTEND
THE FUNERAL ON BEHALF OF CANADA.

The caption changes to "The far eastern colossus. Theagenda.tvo.org"

David continues I GOT HIM ON BOXING DAY HE WAS
GRACIOUS AND SAID YES HE WOULD
BE HONOURED TO THE ARRANGEMENTS
WERE MADE AND I THOUGHT NO MORE
OF IT AND IT WAS TWO WEEKS LATER,
Sitting
IN THE PRIVY COUNCIL OFFICE MY
ASSISTANT COMES IN AND SAYS I
HAVE GOT BRIAN MULRONEY ON THE
PHONE. I THOUGHT IT WAS MY
BROTHER, I said I’m busy, I'M WRITING A NOTE.
SHE SAID NO, IT IS THE BRIAN
MULRONEY.
I HEARD THAT VOICE MR. MULRONEY
I SAID NO, NO I'M NOT
MR. MULRONEY, you ARE
MR. MULRONEY.

Steve chuckles.

David continues HE GAVE ME A
BRIEFING ON THE DISCUSSIONS HELP
AT THE FUNERALS WITH THE WORLD
LEADERS THAT ATTENDED.
IF YOU TOOK THE THREE MOST
IMPORTANT ISSUES for CANADA in the world,
HE GAVE ME A BRIEFING ON WHAT THE
KEY PEOPLE THOUGHT ABOUT THOSE
ISSUES.
IT WAS THE most DETAILED THING.
MY ARM WAS SORE AND I WAS
EMBARRASSED, I HAD NO QUESTIONS
TO ASK IT WAS SO COMPLETE.
I WROTE A FANTASTIC BRIEFING
WHICH I ATTRIBUTED TO HIM.
THERE WAS A MAN WHO THOUGHT
ABOUT CANADA AND THE WORLD AND
WAS GIFTED IN TERMS OF HIS
INTERPERSONAL SKILLS.

Steve says Let’s THINK ABOUT CANADA AND CHINA now.
YOU ADVOCATE THAT THIS
COUNTRY NEEDS A CHINA STRATEGY
AND TO SUGGEST THAT WE NEED IT
ALSO SUGGESTS THAT WE DON'T HAVE
IT.
WHY DON'T WE HAVE IT?

The caption changes to "Pivoting to China."

David says WE DON'T HAVE IT BECAUSE AND
I TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK,
WE HAVE BEEN HOT AND COLD ON
CHINA OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS OR
SO WHEN THE HARPER GOVERNMENT
CAME TO POWER THEY WANTED TO
RETHINK THE CHINA POLICY OF
PRIME MINISTER AS CHRETIEN AND
MARTIN AND I WHAT IT TIME TO
RETHINK THE POLICY, COME OUT OF
THE TEAM CANADA ERA, THE MASSIVE
TRADE MISSIONS WE NEEDED TO
THINK OF SOMETHING NEW.
THAT WAS TIRED.
THE HARPER GOVERNMENT'S
REAPPRAISAL TOOK TOO LONG IT WAS
TOO PUBLIC AND TOO MESSY.
But BY 2009
HE WAS READY TO ENGAGE THE
CHINESE, who were mostly
WILLING TO have THAT HAPPEN.
FOR THREE YEARS WE BUILT THE
RELATIONSHIP SUDDENLY AND IN
EARLY 2012 IT suddenly STOPPED.
AND ALL
Communications STOPPED, WE GOT ON
WITHOUT A BUSINESS, WE
THOROUGHLY CONFUSED CHINESE WE
LOST OUR PLACE IN WHATEVER THE
PECKING ORDER IS.

Steve says WHY DID IT STOP.

David says I think THE GOVERNMENT
OF THE DAY DID AN ACCURATE reading
OF Canadian PUBLIC OPINION.
If YOU LOOK AT things like the
Asia-Pacific base in IN
VANCOUVER, THE POLLING THEY DO
OF CANADIANS’ IMPRESSIONS OF
ASIA... CANADIANS ARE AMBIVALENT
ABOUT CHINA, ONLY 10 percent HAVE A
WARM FEELING ABOUT CHINA.

Steve says WE WANT THE BUSINESS, WE
DON'T LIKE THEM THAT MUCH.

David says I ALSO THINK, YOU TALKED
ABOUT THIS IN THE intro, WE
ARE STUCK IN A WAY ON THINKING
ON FOREIGN POLICY LODGED IN THE
PAST, where our KEY INTERESTS IN TERMS OF
CANADIAN PROSPERITY, THE ECONOMY
AND CANADIAN SECURITY WERE
WORKED OUT THROUGH OUR
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE United States.
CHINA IS NOW CAPABLE OF
INFLUENCING THOSE THINGS, NOT
DOMINATING THEM, BUT INFLUENCING
THEM SIGNIFICANTLY.
WE DON'T GET TO CHOOSE NOT TO
ENGAGE CHINA, CHINA IS ENGAGING
US.
And UNLESS WE RESPOND INTELLIGENTLY
AND WITH INTELLIGENT SELF
INTEREST WE WILL LOSE THE
OPPORTUNITY TO MANAGE OUR SIDE
OF THINGS.

Steve says So A CHINA STRATEGY FOR YOU
LOOKS LIKE WHAT?

David says A CHINA STRATEGY FOR ME HAS A
COUPLE OF CHARACTERISTICS.
IN AN EARLIER INCARNATION IN FOREIGN
AFFAIRS I WORKED ON AFGHANISTAN
SECRETARY TO MANLEY PANEL ON our future role...

Steve interrupts and says FORMER DEPUTY PM JOHN...

David continues AND Some other smart people
Like Bernie and Paul TELLIER AND
JAKE EPP.

Steve says AND THERE WERE OTHERS ON
THAT.

David nods and continues TO GIVE ADVICE ON HOW TO GET
THE MISSION BACK ON TRACK.
The KEY PIECE OF ADVICE FOR THE
MANLEY PANEL THE PM HAD TO
OWN THE ENGAGEMENT IN
AFGHANISTAN.
AFGHANISTAN WAS IMPORTANT BUT IT
IS nowhere near the STRATEGIC IMPORTANCE
OF CHINA.
THE PRIME MINISTER
NEEDS TO OWN THE ENGAGEMENT AND
DIRECT IT.
CABINET SHOULD BE INVOLVED AND
We should have a
CABINET SUBCOMMITTEE THAT LOOKS
AT NOT 100 THINGS WE NEED TO GET
RIGHT WITH CHINA, BUT THE THREE
OR FOUR BIG THINGS WE GET TO GET
RIGHT WITH CHINA.
AND WE NEED TO
INVEST A LOT MORE IN RESEARCH
AND THINKING, AUSTRALIANS HAVE
DONE THIS, ABOUT THE
IMPLICATIONS FOR CANADA OF
CHINA'S RISE.
WE NEED TO BE MUCH MORE AWARE OF
WHAT IS HAPPENING IN CHINA AND
HOW IT IS HAVING AN EFFECT FOR
GOOD OR FOR ILL ON US IN CANADA.

Steve says THE INFERENCE I also draw FROM
YOUR LAST COMMENT IS THAT IF THE
PRIME MINISTER NEEDS TO OWN THE
CHINA POLICY FOR US TO GET IT
RIGHT, THIS CURRENT PRIME
MINISTER DOESN'T, FAIR TO SAY?

David says FAIR TO SAY.
I THINK WHEN I SAY OWN THE
STRATEGY, WHAT I MEAN IS I THINK
IT IS TIME TO HAVE A
CONVERSATION WITH CANADIANS THAT
SAYS SOMETHING LIKE, WE
UNDERSTAND WHY CANADIANS ARE
AMBIVALENT ABOUT CHINA.
THERE ARE GOOD REASONS TO BE
AMBIVALENT ABOUT CHINA, THE RISE
OF CHINA IS NOT ALL GOOD NEWS
FOR A COUNTRY LIKE Canada.
IT IS A CHALLENGE some of OUR
BASIC VALUES and our security.
But that’s not a reason for not
Paying attention.
WHAT WE NEED TO DO MOVING
FORWARD, WE WILL NOT SACRIFICE
CORE CANADIAN VALUES, but we are
Going to PUT IN PLACE AGREEMENTS AND
ACCORDS, that a SOPHISTICATED
RELATIONSHIP WITH AN IMPORTANT
COUNTRY REQUIRES.
AND THIS IS THE
WAY FORWARD.
IF WE DON'T HAVE THAT
CONVERSATION.
IF WE KID OURSELVES THAT WE CAN
IGNORE IT, WE ARE COURTING
MISFORTUNE IN THE MEDIUM TO
LONG-TERM.

Steve says TAKE YOU BACK 45 YEARS, THERE
WAS A PRIME MINISTER WHO DID OWN
THE CHINA POLICY.
PIERRE TRUDEAU OPENED UP
RELATIONS WITH CHINA BEFORE THE
UNITED STATES DID.
HOW IMPACTFUL IS IN THE WAY THAT
CHINA DEALS WITH US TODAY, IS
THAT INITIAL OPENING FROM 45
YEARS AGO?

David says YOU KNOW, BEFORE GOING OUT TO
Beijing TO SERVE AS AMBASSADOR, I
WAS UP, YOU KNOW, REFRESHING MY
CHINESE AT LANGUAGE SCHOOL AND
IN MY SPARE TIME I READ
TRUDEAU'S BOOK FROM 1960 Called
TWO INNOCENTS IN MID CHINA, a book HE
AND JACQUES HEBERT ANOTHER
QUEBEC INTELLECTUAL WROTE.
THE EDITION I HAD WAS '68 EDITION A
NOTE TO THE READER FROM TRUDEAU
AS PRIME MINISTER, IT IS
IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER WHY HEBERT
AND I WENT TO CHINA THAT IS
BECAUSE WE THOUGHT IT ESSENTIAL
THAT CITIZENS OF OUR COUNTRY
SHOULD KNOW MORE ABOUT CHINA.
WHAT HE IS SAYING IS TO BE A
CONNECTED AND INVOLVING CITIZEN
IN CANADA YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND
THE WORLD AND IMPORTANT PARTS OF
IT LIKE CHINA.
THE CHINESE STILL REMEMBER THAT.
THEY STILL REMEMBER IT AND TO A
CERTAIN EXTENT WE ARE LIVING OFF
THE GOODWILL THAT things like that
TRUDEAU RECOGNITION, LIKE THE
CONSERVATIVE DECISION TO SELL
THEM WHEAT IN 1960, THAT EARLY
INVESTMENT WON'T LAST FOREVER.

Steve says YOUR INITIAL BRUSH WITH CHINA
WAS 1986?

David says 1985.
I WENT TO SERVE, WE OPENED OUR
CONSULATE GENERAL IN SHANGHAI,
CLOSED IT AFTER COMMUNIST
REVOLUTION IN 1950s SO WE
RENTED THREE HOUSES IN THREE
SUBURBS OF SHANGHAI FOR THEE
CANADIANS AND THE FOURTH WAS
CONSULATE general.

Steve says AND WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER
ABOUT THAT CHINA COMPARED TO THE
ONE WE KNOW TODAY?

David says THE SHANGHAI OF THEN WAS
STILL VERY MUCH A GRIMY
INDUSTRIAL CITY.
THEY WOULD POINT ACROSS THE
RIVER TO A PLACE CALLED PUDONG
IN DOWNTOWN SHANGHAI AND SAY
SOME DAY WE WILL MAKE THAT A
MODERN METROPOLIS AND SORRY TO
SAY, I SAID, I KIND OF DOUBT
THAT.
I MEAN IT WAS REALLY A
STRUGGLING CITY.
IT HAD A DYNAMIC MAYOR, WHO
LATER BECAME THE LEADER OF ALL
OF CHINA AND ENSURED THAT
SHANGHAI PLAYED ITS PLACE IN
CHINA'S DEVELOPMENT, and then CHINA
ITSELF DEVELOPED QUICKLY.
THE LAST GASP OR THE LAST CHANCE
TO SEE AN OLDER CHINA.
IT NOW COMPLETELY VANISHED.

Steve says WHERE WERE YOU ON JUNE 4,
1989.

David says I had RETURNED TO OTTAWA AND I
WAS WORKING ON THE CHINA DESK
AND WE HAD FOLLOWED THE
DEMONSTRATIONS.
IT IS HARD TO REMEMBER NOW IN
THE WAKE OF THE TERRIBLE THINGS
THAT HAPPENED, IN THE RUN-UP TO
THE TIANANMEN MASSACRE THERE WAS
OPTIMISM THAT PERHAPS CHINA
MIGHT CHANGE.
IT WAS THE DEMONSTRATIONS WERE
WIDESPREAD AND THEY INVOLVED
LOTS OF PEOPLE IN CHINESE
SOCIETY AND THERES WITH A
THOUGHT THAT THIS COULD BE A
TURNING POINT IN CHINESE
HISTORY.
A LOT OF THE PEOPLE I KNEW, WHO
WORKED ON CHINA A LOT OF THE
CANADIANS WHO WORKED IN
BUSINESS AND MEDIA AND ACADEMIA LEFT
The CHINA file AFTER THAT BECAUSE IT WAS
SO EMOTIONALLY UNSETTLING TO
THINK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.
IT WAS A TERRIBLE TIME AND A
TIME IN WHICH WE DECIDED TO PUT
THE RELATIONSHIP ON HOLD FOR A
NUMBER OF YEARS THAT LASTED
UNTIL PRIME MINISTER CHRETIEN'S
TEAM landed IN 1994.

Steve says I WAS GOING TO SAY BRIAN
MULRONEY WAS THE PRIME MINISTER
WHEN THAT HAPPENED AND
ESSENTIALLY OUR RELATIONSHIP
WENT INTO A FREEZE AFTER THAT?

David says AS THE RELATIONSHIP WITH
OTHER COUNTRIES DID.
WHAT WAS IMPORTANT STEVEN IN
TERMS OF THAT AND I LEARNED A
LESSON THERE ARE SOME THINGS
THAT ARE NO LONGER POSSIBLE WHEN
YOU GO INTO crises like that,
BUT YOU CAN
NOT SHUT OFF EVERY FORM OF
COMMUNICATION.
YOU NEED TO TALK TO BIG,
IMPORTANT COUNTRIES AND MAKE
SURE THAT THEY ARE NOT FEELING
DANGEROUSLY ISOLATED.
I'M NOT A MIDDLE EAST SPECIALIST,
But when I LOOK AT A COUNTRY LIKE IRAN.
MY CHINA EXPERIENCE MAKES ME
THINK IT IS BETTER TO HAVE SOME
LEVEL OF communication WITH the IRANIANS OR
CHINESE OR RUSSIANS AS MUCH AS
THEY MAY DISPLEASE US, TO
UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY ARE DOING
AND WHY THEY ARE DOING IT AND TO
MAKE SURE THAT THEY DON'T
FEEL dangerously ISOLATED.

Steve says YOU SERVED IN CHINA UNDER
CHRETIEN, MARTIN AND HARPER.
COULD YOU COMPARE THE ENGAGEMENT
ON THE CHINA FILE THAT YOU HAD
WITH EACH OF THOSE THREE?

The caption changes to "Making foreign policy."

David says WELL, CLEARLY THE PERSON WHO
MOST ENJOYED THE CHINA FILE WAS
PRIME MINISTER CHRETIEN AND HE
FELT HE HAD PUT THINGS BACK ON
TRACK WITH TEAM CANADA AND I
WANT TO MAKE THE POINT THAT THEY
WERE GREAT INNOVATIONS IN THEIR
DAY.

Steve says TELL PEOPLE...

David says TEAM CANADA WAS SOMETHING
THAT PRIME MINISTER CHRETIEN
LAUNCHED IN 1994.
IT INVOLVED SEVERAL HUNDRED
BUSINESS PEOPLE, ALL OF THE
PREMIERS, THE HUGE CANADIAN
CAVALCADE THAT WENT KNOCKING ON
THE DOORS IN BEIJING AND
REMINDING THE CHINESE OF HOW
SIGNIFICANT YOU KNOW, THE
RELATIONSHIP WITH CANADA WAS AND
IT WAS GREETED WITH REAL
ENTHUSIASM BY THE CHINESE.
I THINK WE CARRIED THAT ON WELL
INTO THE 21st CENTURY when it had
Been DONE BY OTHERS.
THE OTHER THING I POINT OUT IN
THE BOOK IS I'M NOT SURE THAT IT
IS -- THAT HAVING A PRIME
MINISTER IS THE MAIN EXPORT
PROMOTER IS THE BEST THING
BECAUSE PRIME MINISTERS HAVE TO
HAVE DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS
About HUMAN RIGHTS AND SECURITY
ISSUES.
PROBABLY BETTER TO HAVE TRADE
MINISTER AND PREMIERS PROMOTE
TRADE AND SPECIFIC MINISTERS AND
LEAVE OTHER ASPECTS OF THE
RELATIONSHIP SUCH AS THE TOUGH
QUESTIONS ON HUMAN RIGHTS TO THE
PRIME MINISTER.

Steve says LET ME PICK UP ON THAT.
I PRESUME YOU WERE IN THE ROOM
WITH VARIOUS PRIME MINISTERS AT
THOSE MOMENTS WHEN THE
INEVITABLE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT
HUMAN RIGHTS CAME UP.
IN WHAT FASHION AND WITH WHAT
TONE WOULD OUR PRIME MINISTERS
ENGAGE HIS CHINESE COUNTERPARTS
ON THAT TOPIC?

David says I WOULD SAY ALL THREE DID A
PRETTY GOOD JOB.
YOU ARE DEALING WITH SOMEONE WHO
IS LEADER OF THE LARGEST COUNTRY
IN THE WORLD WHO COME UP THROUGH
A TOUGH HIGHLY COMPETITIVE
BRUTAL SYSTEM.
SO THESE ARE NOT SHRINKING
VIOLETS AND THEY ARE NOT AFRAID
TO CONTEST DIFFICULT ISSUES.
IT IS NOT EASY TO bring it UP.

Steve says Can WE BRING IT UP?

David says WE BRING IT up.
[ TALKING SIMULTANEOUSLY ]
AND SOME OF THEM, THERE WAS A
PREMIER IN THE PAST CALLED
JU-WONG JI, THE ECONOMIC CZAR,
PREMIER THAT DEALT WITH
CHRETIEN.
HE WAS COMFORTABLE IN his REBUTTALS.
He would SAY LOOK HERE IS WHAT WE ARE
DOING, HERE IS WHERE WE ARE
DOING IT, WE THINK WE ARE MAKING
PROGRESS HERE BUT NOT THERE...
He was very FRANK AND GOOD WITH THE
MEDIA.
OTHERS ARE A BIT MORE WOODEN,
OTHERS ARE A BIT MORE PRONE TO
SPOUTING A PARTY LINE.

Steve asks ANYBODY SAY NONE OF YOUR DAM
BUSINESS?

David says NO, NO.

Steve says THEY NEVER SAID THAT?

David says NO.
ONE OF THE THINGS I WOULD BRIEF
MINISTERS ON IN PARTICULAR, AND
SOMETIMES THE PRIME MINISTER,
BUT THIS HAPPENED MORE WITH
MINISTERS IS IF THEY WERE IN A
SESSION, SO THE FOREIGN MINISTER
WAS IN A LARGE MEETING WITH HIS
COUNTERPART AND YOU HAD A DOZEN
OFFICIALS IN THE ROOM AND THERE
WAS A VERY SENSITIVE TOPIC THAT
WE HAD TO RAIDS RELATING TO A
PRISONER OF CONSCIENCE OR
SOMEONE WHO NEEDED URGENT
MEDICAL TREATMENT I WOULD
SUGGEST THAT AFTER MAKING
GENERAL COMMENTS ABOUT HUMAN
RIGHTS THEY SAVE THAT
INTERVENTION UNTIL THE TWO
MINISTERS WERE WALKING INTO THE
NEXT MEETING OR ALONE BECAUSE
YOU WOULD GET A MORE THOUGHTFUL
RESPONSE IF YOU DID IT THAT WAY
RATHER THAN IN THE FORMAL
SETTING WHEN THE CHINESE
COUNTERPART THEN feels IN FRONT
OF HIS OFFICIALS THAT HE OR SHE
HAS TO GIVE YOU THE PARTY LINE.
HOW YOU RAISE IT WHEN YOU RAISE
IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

Steve says CAN YOU POINT TO CASES WHERE
DOING IT YOUR WAY WORKED?

David says YES, I CAN THINK OF ONE
EXAMPLE STRANGELY ENOUGH A
MEETING OF HEALTH MINISTERS, WE
HAVE THE ANNUAL HEALTH DIALOGUE
WHICH IS IMPORTANT AND I TALK
ABOUT THAT IN THE BOOK, because CHINA
NEEDS CANADIAN HEALTH SOLUTIONS
AND PEOPLE AND BETHUNE THE
FAMOUS CANADIAN DOCTOR WHO DIED
ON THE BATTLEFIELDS IN CHINA.
[ TALKING SIMULTANEOUSLY ]

David says BETHUNE DIED IN '39 SO A LONG
TIME AGO HE IS STILL REVERED.
SO WE HAVE A HEALTH MINISTER'S
MEETING AND AT THIS TIME THE
SPOUSE OF A CANADIAN WHO WAS
IMPRISONED, WE THINK HE WAS
BEATEN UP BY THE POLICE AND
NEEDED URGENT MEDICAL TREATMENT
AND HIS CANADIAN SPOUSE WAS
WORRIED THAT HE WAS NOT GETTING
TREATMENT.
THE CANADIAN HEALTH MINISTER
RAISED IT WITH HER CHINESE
COUNTERPART WALKING IN A PRIVATE
SESSION AND SHE SAID AND HE
HAPPENED TO BE A MEDICAL DOCTOR.
SHE SAID I KNOW YOU ARE A
DOCTOR, THIS IS IMPORTANT TO US,
COULD YOU LOOK INTO THIS BECAUSE
IT IS A CASE WHERE, YOU KNOW,
MEDICAL TREATMENT IS AND HE SAID
HE WOULD AND HE DID.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU ONE MORE THING
ON THIS AND THAT IS ABOUT
RELIGION, JEAN CHRETIEN AND PAUL
MARTIN WERE CATHOLIC STEPHEN
HARPER IS AN EVANGELICAL
CHRISTIAN.
AN ITEM IN THE PAPER THE OTHER
DAY ABOUT EDICT GOING OUT IN
CHINA TO START TO REMOVE CROSSES
FROM PLACES AROUND TO COUNTRY A
CLEAR slap at THE PROGRESS THAT
CHRISTIANS HAVE MADE IN CHINA
FOR YEARS.
ANYBODY TO GO BAT FOR
CHRISTIANITY IN CHINA ON YOUR
WATCH?

David says THEY ESTABLISHED AN
AMBASSADOR FOR RELIGIOUS
FREEDOMS WHICH IS A GOOD THING.
I DON'T THINK THAT AMBASSADORIAL
POSITION HAS BEEN DEPLOYED AS
ACTIVELY AS IT SHOULD BE.
I TOOK A KEEN INTEREST IN
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.
I VISITED WHAT IS CALLED A HOUSE
CHURCH OR PROTESTANT CHURCH THAT
IS NOT UNDER THE official
CONTROL OF THE PARTY.
I HAD TO GO INTO A RURAL AREA
AND I WENT IN TO SEE WHAT WAS
HAPPENING.
THESE ARE PROTESTANTS who WISH
TO PRACTICE RELIGION WITHOUT
EXCESSIVE STATE CONTROL.
So I WANTED
TO SEE WHAT THEY WERE DOING, I
USED TO VISIT MOSQUES.
I HAPPEN TO BE CATHOLIC.
IT WAS AN INTERESTING EXPERIENCE
FOR ME BECAUSE I HAVE GROWN UP
IN CANADA, TOLERANT PROSPEROUS
CANADA ENJOYED COMPLETE FREEDOM
OF RELIGION AND WHILE I WAS IN
CHINA CHINESE GOVERNMENT CRACKED
DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY ON THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH.
FORMER POPE BENEDICT TRIED TO
REACH OUT TO CHINESE.
TRIED TO FIND ACCOMMODATION WITH
THEM, BUT BY 2009 THEY WERE
FEELING CONFIDENT IN A LOT OF
RESPECTS SO THEY SPURNED THIS
AND PUT PRIESTS AND BISHOPS IN
PRISON, MADE IT HARDER FOR
CATHOLICS TO PRACTICE THEIR
FAITH.
It was AN INTERESTING EXPERIENCE FOR ME
TO BE CATHOLIC IN A COUNTRY
WHERE CATHOLICS WERE UNDER
SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE.
I MADE AT POINT TO VISIT WITH
CATHOLIC PRIESTS, CATHOLIC
NGOs AND TO INCLUDE A VISIT TO
RELIGIOUS BELIEVERS ACROSS THE
SPECTRUM ON ALL OF THE MAJOR
TRAVELS THAT I DID.
I THINK THAT IS HUGELY
IMPORTANT.

Steve says OKAY.
LET ME TAKE YOU TO 10 YEARS AGO.
PRIME MINISTER OF THE DAY IS
PAUL MARTIN, HE GOES TO CHINA
AND MEETS WITH HU JINTAO AND
THEY AGREE THAT THE
SINO-CANADIAN RELATIONSHIP
QUALIFIED AS QUOTE-UNQUOTE
STRATEGIC RELATIONSHIP, WHAT
DOES THAT MEAN?

The caption changes to "What does China want?"

David says YOU KNOW, THAT IS SOMETHING
THAT IS ENDLESSLY CONFUSING IN
CANADA.
I REMEMBER AT THE TIME CHINESE
SAID LOOK WE WANT TO USE THIS
TERMINOLOGY.
YOU SHOULD AGREE, DON'T TURN US
DOWN AND I THINK THE CANADIAN
RESPONSE WAS, WELL IF YOU WANT
TO CALL IT THAT, THAT IS FINE.
IT MEANS SOMETHING.
IN CHINA IT IS REALLY NECESSARY
TO DEFINE RELATIONSHIPS WITH
COUNTRIES.
SO WHEN THEY SAY WE HAVE A
STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIP WITH
CANADA, THAT IS A SIGNAL TO
CHINA'S VAST BUREAUCRACY THAT
SAYS WE CAN NOW DO THINGS WITH
CANADA THAT WE COULD NOT
PREVIOUSLY DO.
SO PRIME MINISTER MARTIN AGREED
ON THE STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIP
CONCEPT BUT WE NEVER GOT IT
MOVING, NEVER PUT ANYTHING
BEHIND THAT.
AND IT WAS NOT UNTIL PRIME
MINISTER HARPER'S 2009 VISIT
WHERE WE GOT THAT -- WE HAD THAT
PUT BACK INTO THE AGREEMENT
BETWEEN THE TWO LEADERS AND WE
SAID LET'S MAKE IT MEAN
SOMETHING.
Within 3 OR 4 DAYS I HAD A SENIOR
CHINESE OFFICIAL AT THE DINNER
AT EMBASSY. This is the person RESPONSIBLE
FOR INTERNATIONAL EDUCATION,
WHICH IS HUGELY IMPORTANT.
WE WANT TO DO MORE WITH CANADA
DAVID, BECAUSE I JUST HEARD THAT
OUR STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIP IS
RECONFIRMED.
SO PART OF MY JOB WAS TO TREK
BACK TO OTTAWA AND SAY, THESE
DEFINITIONS MEAN THINGS.
IT GIVES US PERMISSION TO BUILD
IN AREA WHEREAS WE WANT TO BUILD
BUT LET'S DO THAT WHILE, YOU
KNOW, BECAUSE RELATIONSHIPS
DON'T STAY WARM AND CUDDLY
FOREVER, LET'S BUILD THEM WHILE
THEY ARE.

Steve says DID IT TURN INTO ANYTHING
MORE WE GET YOUR PANDAS AND GET
TO COO ALL OVER THEM WHEN THEY
COME HERE?

David says PANDAS WERE THE ICING ON THE
CAKE, TREMENDOUSLY IMPORTANT
POLITICALLY IN CANADA AND THE
SUBJECT I GOT THE MOST GRIEF
FROM Ottawa.

Steve says HOW DID PANDAS BECOME A BIG
DEAL, PANDA DIPLOMACY, YOU TALK
ABOUT IN IT THE BOOK.

David says PANDAS ARE THE ULTIMATE SOFT
POWER CARD THAT CHINA HAS TO
PLAY, NOBODY ELSE HAS PANDAS AND
PEOPLE ARE NUTS ABOUT PANDAS.
I DEALT WITH THE CORRESPONDENT
OF ANOTHER NETWORK WHO USED TO
COMPLAIN ALL THE TIME, SAYING MY
NETWORK WILL NOT PAY FOR ME TO
TRAVEL, BEIJING AND SUPPOSED TO
COVER ASIA I DON'T HAVE TRAVEL
MONEY TO GET TO CHINA.
I SHOWED UP IN A REGIONAL
AIRPORT IN THE SOUTHWEST NEAR
WHERE THE PANDAS COME FROM, I
SEE A CANADIAN CORRESPONDENT IN
THIS AIRPORT.
HAS YOUR NETWORK SEEN THE LIGHT
NO I'M COVERING THE STORY ABOUT
PANDAS.
IF THE STORY HAS PANDAS IN IT
YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE YOU WANT.

Steve laughs.

David continues THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT AND
THE CHINESE GET THAT.

Steve says DID they make you nuts?

David says YOU HAVE TO BE PRACTICAL AND
REALISTIC IF THAT IS A SYMBOL
FOR THE RELATIONSHIP THAT IS
FINE.
YOU HAVE TO PUT OTHER THINGS IN
THE STORE WINDOW.

Steve says ONE OF THE INTRIGUING THINGS
in YOUR BOOK, is that STEPHEN
HARPER'S FOREIGN MINISTER WAS
JOHN BAIRD, HE JUST LEFT PUBLIC
LIFE AS YOU KNOW.
HIS NAME, FOUR YEARS, I THINK
YEAH, THAT IS ONE OF THE LONGEST
SERVING FOREIGN MINISTERS OF THE
LAST 25 YEARS I THINK.
HIS NAME APPEARS IN YOUR BOOK
ONCE.
HOW COME?

David says I WAS MORE INTERESTED, I
THINK SOME OF THE TRENDS THAT I
SAW, CERTAINLY IN THE most RECENT
GOVERNMENT WERE NOT SO MUCH
Personal trends as
POLITICAL TRENDS.
AND I DID NOT
WANT TO CREATE IMPRESSION THAT
WE WERE DOING THINGS IN A
PARTICULAR WAY BECAUSE OF A
PARTICULAR PERSON.
I TALK ABOUT DEPENDENCY, NOT TO
USE DIPLOMATS IN DIPLOMACY.
THAT IS PART OF A LARGER TREND
TO SIDELINE THE PUBLIC SERVICE
TO DESCRIBE IT TO CANADIANS AS
BUREAUCRACY TO DIMINISH IT AND I
THINK THAT THE MINISTER BAIRD
WAS AN EXAMPLE OF THAT SO WERE
MANY OF THE OTHER MINISTERS IN
THAT CABINET.
THE OTHER THING WAS IT WOULD BE
EASIER TO TALK ABOUT MINISTERS
IF THERE WAS A SUSTAINED AND I
THINK LONG-TERM VISION OF THE
RELATIONSHIP AND I DID NOT SEE
THAT.
IT DOES NOT STAND OUT IN MY
MEMORY AS THE BAIRD ERA OR
WORKED ON MINISTER CANNON AS
WELL.

Steve says LAWRENCE CANNON.

David says YES.

Steve says YOU MENTIONED HIM ONCE
BECAUSE HE WAS EITHER SO
INSIGNIFICANT AND HAD NOTHING
ATTACHED TO HIS NAME WORTH
MENTIONING OR YOU AND HE WENT
HAMMER AND TONGUE SO MANY TIMES
YOU DID NOT WANT TO MENTION HIM,
WHICH IS CLOSER TO THE TRUTH?

David says I HAD A GOOD RELATIONSHIP
WITH MINISTER BAIRD.
I CAME TO SEE THAT AS PART OF
THE PROBLEM.
THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT HAS
CERTAIN PEOPLE THAT THEY WILL
WORK WITH AND THAT IS GOOD IF
YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE AND
I THINK I WAS ONE OF THOSE
PEOPLE.
IT IS NOT GOOD FOR THE
INSTITUTION.
I MENTIONED MINISTER BAIRD'S
VISITS TO CHINA WHERE HE
WOULD -- WELL, THE CHINESE
AMBASSADOR WOULD ACCOMPANY HIM
TO CHINA WHICH IS UNUSUAL.
IN THE MEETINGS AND IN THE
SUMMATION FOR THE MEETINGS,
MINISTER BAIRD WOULD WORK WITH
THE CHINESE AMBASSADOR AND
ACCOMPANYING OFFICIALS FROM
FOREIGN AFFAIRS WOULD BE LEFT ON
THE SIDELINES.
THAT SENDS A STRONG SIGNAL TO
CHINESE THAT FOREIGN AFFAIRS IS
NOT A PLAYER.
But it’s also A BAD IDEA BECAUSE IT IS
IMPORTANT FOR MINISTERS TO STEP
BACK A BIT TO LET OFFICIALS DEAL
WITH THE MESSY ISSUES AND TO
INTERVENE AT MUCH HIGHER LEVEL.
SO SIDELINING OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS
PART OF MINISTER BAIRD'S
APPROACH EVIDENT IN THE CANNON
YEARS I ATTRIBUTE TO THE
GOVERNMENT THAN TO INDIVIDUALS.

Steve says YOU SAY IN THE BOOK THE
FEDERAL PUBLIC SERVICE HAS A
PROBLEM WITH LEADERSHIP, WHAT DO
YOU MEAN BY THAT?

David says YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE
COVERAGE OF THE BOOK IS FOCUSED
ON MY CRITICISM AND IT IS REAL
CRITICISM OF THE CURRENT
GOVERNMENT, MINISTERS.
BUT I ALSO, FIRST I ACKNOWLEDGE
THAT I WAS A SENIOR OFFICIAL IN
THE PUBLIC SERVICE ON CHINA I
CAN NOT EVADE RESPONSIBILITY
ENTIRELY AND I MAKE THE POINT
THAT THE FEDERAL PUBLIC SERVICE
OFTEN FAILS TO RISE TO TRULY
NATIONAL ISSUES.
SO AFGHANISTAN IS FOR me a COMPELLING
CASE IN POINT BECAUSE I LIVED it.
You had the CANADIAN INTERNATIONAL
DEVELOPMENT AGENCY, CIDA WHICH
DOES HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.
You had the DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS, and in
A MUCH LARGER CAPACITY, THE
CANADIAN FORCES ALL ENGAGED IN
AFGHANISTAN IN VARIOUS WAYS AND
SUPPOSEDLY TOGETHER IN THE
KANDAHAR MISSION.
MUCH OF MY
TIME, IN FACT ALL OF MY TIME WAS
SPENT TRYING TO GET THOSE THREE
ORGANIZATIONS TO WORK TOGETHER
FOR CANADIAN ENDS RATHER THAN
FOR THE ORGANIZATIONAL ENDS OF
CITA, FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND THE
CANADIAN FORCES.

Steve says HOW TOUGH WAS THAT?

David says IT WAS EXTREMELY TOUGH AND
only AFTER the INTERVENTION OF the MANLEY
PANEL, ESTABLISHMENT OF CABINET
COMMITTEE, PUTTING
RESPONSIBILITY IN THE PRIVY
COUNCIL OFFICE THAT WE MANAGED
TO DO THAT FOR A COUPLE OF
YEARS.
IT IS EXTREMELY TOUGH.
AS THE AMBASSADOR I CALLED
MYSELF THE CONNECTOR CHIEF.
Because in the embassy IT IS
NOT JUST PEOPLE FROM FOREIGN
AFFAIRS; you’ve got PEOPLE FROM NATURAL
RESOURCES CANADA, AGRICULTURE
CANADA, THE PROVINCES AND I HAD
12 OR SO DEPARTMENTS AND
AGENCIES REPRESENTED AND MY MAIN
JOB THERE WAS TO GET THEM TO
FOCUS ON FOUR OR FIVE TRULY
CANADIAN OBJECTIVES NOT THE
INDIVIDUAL OBJECTIVES OF
WHATEVER DESK WAS PULLING THE
STRINGS BACK IN OTTAWA AND THAT
WAS REALLY TOUGH.
THE PUBLIC SERVICE NEEDS TO
ACCEPT THE FACT THAT SOMETIMES
THE WORKING FOR CANADIAN
OBJECTIVES NOT ORGANIZATIONAL
OBJECTIVES.

Steve says OUR ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIP
WITH CHINA IS DEEPENING, WE SAW
ANNOUNCEMENT THE OTHER DAY THAT
CANADA AND CHINA HAVE LAUNCHED
THE FIRST NORTH AMERICAN ONE
HUB.
FOR CANADIAN CHINESE CURRENCY.
FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS THAT AND
WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WILL DO?

The caption changes to "Adapting to a new superpower."

David says WHAT IT IS AND WHAT IT IS
GOING TO DO, IT GIVES CANADIAN
BUSINESS PEOPLE THE OPPORTUNITY
TO DENOMINATE THEIR GOODS IN
CHINESE CURRENCY TO TRANSFER
FROM CANADIAN DOLLARS TO CHINESE
CURRENCY WITHOUT FIRST GOING
THROUGH U.S. CURRENCY.
SO IT SAVES THEM AND BY SOME
ESTIMATIONS SAVE THEM 6 BILLION
OVER A DECADE.
I THINK IT IS POSSIBLE.
SO IF THAT IS A GOOD THING
AND IT IS ONE OF THE THINGS YOU
NEED TO PUT IN PLACE AS THE
RELATIONSHIP GROWS.
WHEN I GIVE TALKS AROUND THE GTA
OR AROUND TORONTO ABOUT THE
ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIP, PEOPLE
ARE ASTOUNDED TO SEE THAT CHINA
IS FAR AND AWAY OUR NUMBER TWO
ECONOMIC PARTNER.
IT IS NOT THE SIZE OF THE UNITED
STATES BUT IT IS MUCH, MUCH
BIGGER THAN OUR RELATIONSHIP
WITH THE U.K. AND JAPAN AND
GERMANY AND FRANCE COMBINED SO
THINGS LIKE THAT THAT MAKE THE
RELATIONSHIP A bit EASIER
ARE GOOD THINGS.
IT IS also a PART OF CHINA'S DESIRE TO
INTERNATIONALIZE THEIR CURRENCY.
IT IS STILL INTERNATIONAL TRADE
ONLY VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF
INTERNATIONAL TRADE IS CURRENTLY
DENOMINATED IN CHINESE CURRENCY.
THEY LIKE THAT TO GROW BUT THERE
ARE LIMITS ON HOW MUCH IT CAN
GROW BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT
THE CHINESE ECONOMY ITSELF IS
STILL RELATIVELY CLOSED.
SO THESE GESTURES ARE IMPORTANT
BUT IT IS JUST ONE OF A NUMBER
OF THINGS THAT WE NEED TO DO TO
KEEP THE RELATIONSHIP GROWING.

Steve says HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU THAT
CHINA'S STATE-RUN COMPANIES WILL
COME OVER HERE AND BUY UP OUR
FREE PRIVATE MARKET COMPANIES
WHICH WOULD BE GREAT FOR CHINA
BUT NOT NECESSARILY SO GOOD FOR
US?

David says YOU KNOW, A COUPLE OF THINGS
ABOUT THAT.
FIRST, I THINK REAL ACTION IN
CHINA THAT WE WILL SEE IS NO
LONGER IN THE STATE-OWNED
COMPANIES, IT IS IN THE PRIVATE
COMPANIES AND THEY TEND TO BE A
BIT SMALLER AND MAYBE MORE
NIMBLE.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I SPEND A
LOT OF TIME DOING IN CHINA WAS
WORKING WITH THE COMPANIES THAT
WERE MOST LIKELY TO INVEST IN
CANADA IN GETTING THEM TO FOCUS
ON HOW YOU DO BUSINESS IN
CANADA.
SO, WE WERE LUCKY SOMETIMES IF
THEY WOULD TAKE OFF THE SHELF
THEIR HOW TO DO BUSINESS IN THE
U.S. BOOK AND THAT WASN'T
ENOUGH.
IN CANADA PROVINCES MATTER,
MUNICIPALITIES MATTER, WE ARE
VERY SENSITIVE ABOUT THE
ENVIRONMENT AND LABOUR RIGHTS
AND SAFETY IN THE WORKPLACE.
The NORTH IS IMPORTANT US TO AND THE
SMARTEST AND BEST CHINESE
COMPANIES GOT THAT, OTHERS, YOU
KNOW, FUMBLED A BIT, COMING OUT
OF THE GATE.
MY OWN SENSE IS THAT CANADA IS
ALWAYS DEPENDENT ON FOREIGN
INVESTMENT TO GROW ITS ECONOMY.
THE LARGEST SOURCE OF FOREIGN
INVESTMENT GROWTH IS PROBABLY
COMING FROM CHINA FOR THE
FORESEEABLE FUTURE SO WE NEED TO
FIGURE OUT HOW TO WORK WITH
CHINA AS AUSTRALIA AND EUROPE
AND MANY OTHERS ARE DOING.
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY WE
HAVE TO HAVE FAITH AND WE HAVE
TO APPLY OUR OWN CANADIAN
REGULATIONS.
AND WE SHOULD NOT LOSE HEART OR
ASSUME THAT THERE IS SOMETHING
THAT THE CHINESE CAN DO TO
OVERTURN THOSE.
IF WE APPLY OUR CANADIAN LAWS
AND REGULATIONS IN A SOCIETY
WHERE WE HAVE A LIVELY MEDIA AND
NGOs, I THINK THAT THE CHINESE
LIKE MOST FOREIGN INVESTORS WILL
FIND THAT IT IS A GOOD BUSINESS
ENVIRONMENT AS LONG AS THEY PLAY
BY THE RULES.
I'M CONFIDENT WE CAN DO THAT.

Steve says THIS COUNTRY HAS A NORTH
AMERICAN FREE TRADE AGREEMENT, A
COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, FREE TRADE
AGREEMENT WITH THE EU, LAST YEAR
FREE TRADE AGREEMENT WITH SOUTH
KOREA, FREE TRADE WITH CHINA?

David says CHINESE IN 2012 BEGAN TO
FLOAT THIS IDEA WHICH IS
UNCHARACTERISTIC FOR THEM, YOU
NORMALLY COME TO THEM AND PAY
THREE OR FOUR TIMES FOR THE
PRIVILEGE OF OPENING
DISCUSSIONS.
WE WERE CLEARLY IN THEIR GOOD
BOOKS.
MY SENSE IS -- IT WOULD BE A
GOOD IDEA TO BEGIN SITTING DOWN
WITH CHINESE TO TALK ABOUT THIS.
WE DON'T HAVE TO NEGOTIATE A BAD
DEAL.
BUT FREE TRADE NEGOTIATIONS DO A
NUMBER OF THINGS.
ONE, IT FORCES BOTH SIDES,
CHINESE IN PARTICULAR, TO THINK
OF TOTALITY OF THE CANADIAN
ECONOMY INCLUDING NOT JUST
RESOURCE SECTOR, BUT, YOU KNOW,
OUR...
ENGINEERING, FINANCIAL SERVICES,
HEALTH CARE, FOOD, FOOD AND
BEVERAGE.
A MUCH BROADER SENSE OF WHAT
CANADA IS ALL ABOUT.
IT ALSO HAS THE EFFECT OF
RAISING EXPORTER INTEREST IN THE
OTHER ECONOMY.
PEOPLE BECOME MUCH MORE AWARE OF
WHAT THE POSSIBILITIES ARE.
SO I THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA.
I WISH WE PICKED UP ON THAT IN
2012.
NOT SURE WHEN WE WILL NEXT HAVE
THE OPPORTUNITY TO BEGIN THOSE
DISCUSSIONS BUT I THINK IT IS
ESSENTIAL FOR OUR ECONOMIC
GROWTH TO HAVE A MUCH CLOSER
ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIP WITH
CHINA.

Steve says Here’s FROM YOUR BOOK...

A quote appears on screen, under the title “Do they care?” The quote reads “WE NEED TO BE WILLING TO STAND UP FOR VALUES THAT CHINA IS NOW CHALLENGING. OUR SYMPATHY FOR CHINA’S VERY DIFFERENT CULTURE AND history SHOULD NOT LEAD US TO ABANDON BELIEF IN the UNIVERSALITY OF BASIC HUMAN
RIGHTS.”
Quoted from David Mulroney, ‘Middle Power, Middle Kingdom.” 2015.

Steve says I GET THAT, but WOULD YOU AGREE THAT
CHINA SEEMS TO BE DOING FINE
THANK YOU VERY MUCH WITHOUT
PAYING ANY HEED TO OUR CONCERN
ABOUT UNIVERSAL BASIC HUMAN
RIGHTS?

The caption changes to "Theagenda.tvo.org"

David says IT IS AN OLD SONG, IT DEPENDS
ON YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND TIMING.
IF YOU LOOK AT CHINA YEAR BY
YEAR, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE
CHANGING VERY MUCH.
IF YOU LOOK AT CHINA OVER
DECADES IT IS CHANGING AND IT IS
CHANGING IN PART BECAUSE OF WHAT
IT HEARS FROM OUTSIDERS BUT ALSO
CHANGES BECAUSE OF THE PRESSURE
AND IDEAS AND ENERGY OF PEOPLE
WITHIN CHINA.
I CALL THESE PEOPLE
Constituents FOR CHANGE.
I MET LOTS OF JOURNALISTS WHO
KNOW WHAT JOURNALISTS DO AROUND
THE WORLD AND WANT BE GOOD
JOURNALISTS.
THEY DON'T TO GO WORK TO BE BAD
JOURNALISTS.
THEY DON'T LIKE THAT.
I MET LAWYERS WHO KNOW WHAT
LAWYERS DO AND UNDERSTAND THE
RULE OF LAW AND WANT TO BE BEST
LAWYERS.
PART OF THE EFFORT IS TO REACH
OUT TO THESE PEOPLE TO REMIND
THEM THAT THERE IS A WIDER WORLD
OUT THERE THAT CARES.
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE US DOING
MORE BETWEEN LAW SCHOOLS AND
JOURNALISM SCHOOLS AND MORE
EXCHANGES TO ENCOURAGE THAT
PROCESS OF CHANGE AND EVOLUTION
IN CHINA.

Steve says YOU THINK WE CAN INFLUENCE
THEIR BEHAVIOUR TOWARDS OUR
DIRECTION AND OUR WAY OF
THINKING?

David says ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK WE ARE SEEING THAT NOW
IN CHINA.
IT IS ONE STEP FORWARD AND TWO
BACK.
BUT THAT IS NO REASON NOT TO
ENGAGE IN THAT.
AND there are SMALLER INDIVIDUAL CASES.
YOU CAN SAY WHAT GOOD DOES OUR
ACTIVITY ON BEHALF OF INDIVIDUAL
DISSIDENTS DO.
THE GERMAN AMBASSADOR USED TO
TELL ME A STORY, he would SENDING CARDS
TO a DISSIDENT who was IN PRISON.
He said I FELT SILLY DOING THAT, I THOUGHT THAT
IS ALL I CAN DO.
WHEN THE GENTLEMAN GOT OUT OF
PRISON HE SAID YOU WOULD NOT
BELIEVE HOW IMPORTANT THOSE
CARDS WERE TO ME, BECAUSE IT
REMINDED ME THAT SOMEONE OUT
THERE HAD NOT FORGOTTEN ME.
WE USED TO VISIT FAMILIES OF
dissidents TO BRING THEM TOYS FOR
THEIR KIDS AND TO GO COURT
CASES.
IT IS IMPORTANT TO KEEP THOSE
DISCUSSIONS UP AND YOU ARE NOT
DOING IT GIVE THE CHINESE A
SENSE THAT IT IS OKAY AND THAT
THERE IS A FREE PASS.

Steve says DAVID ONE LAST QUESTION, YOU
HAVING SEEN AUTHORITARIAN
CAPITALISM UP CLOSE AND BEING
CANADIAN AND LIVING IN A
DEMOCRATIC CAPITALISTIC SOCIETY,
WHO’S GOING TO WIN?

David says MY OWN SENSE IS THAT THE
CHINESE MODEL WILL CONTINUE FOR
AT LEAST THE SHORT TO MEDIUM
TERM AND TALK ABOUT 5 TO 7 YEARS
OUT, BUT I THINK THEY ARE IN FOR
SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE BECAUSE THE
AUTHORITARIAN CAPITALIST MODEL
ULTIMATELY RUNS OUT OF STEAM.
The CHINESE SINCE THE TERRIBLE
CRACKDOWN IN TIANANMEN SQUARE IN
1989 HAVE BASICALLY FOCUSED ON
ECONOMIC PROGRESS AND SO THAT
THE MESSAGE TO CHINESE PEOPLE IS
WE WILL GIVE YOU YOUR CONDO, AND
YOUR ONE CHILD CAN GO TO
UNIVERSITY AND YOUR LIFE CAN BE
BETTER.

Steve says BUT NOT YOUR FREEDOM.

David says BUT NOT YOUR FREEDOM.
AND THEY HAVE ALSO FAILED TO
FACE UP TO POLITICAL REFORM.
SO THE ULTIMATE QUESTION FACING
CHINA, THE EXISTENTIAL QUESTION
IS ABOUT RULE OF LAW, WHAT IS
THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE
PARTY AND THE LAW.
IS THE PARTY THE FONT OF THE LAW
ABOVE THE LAW OR SUBJECT TO THE
LAW.
SO they’re MOUNTING a MAJOR ANTICORRUPTION
CAMPAIGN WHICH IS POPULAR BUT
THEY ONLY LET IT GO SO FAR
BECAUSE AT SOME POINT THE PARTY
IS THEN FORCED TO INVESTIGATE
ITSELF WHICH BECOMES VERY, VERY
DIFFICULT.
I DON'T THINK THOSE PROBLEMS AND
QUESTIONS CAN BE PUT OFF
FOREVER.
KEY QUESTIONS ABOUT RULE OF LAW
AND ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP
RELATIONSHIP WEN THE PARTY AND
THE CHINESE PEOPLE ARE COMING
DUE AND they’re COMING DUE IN
THE NEXT FIVE TO 7 YEARS AND IF
CHINA CAN SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY
ADDRESS THEM THE WAY FORWARD
LOOKS GOOD.
IF THEY CONTINUE TO STONEWALL ON
THAT I THINK THERE IS A BUMPY
ROAD AHEAD.

Steve says MIDDLE POWER MIDDLE KINGDOM,
WHAT CANADIANS NEED TO KNOW
ABOUT CHINA IN 21st CENTURY.
That’s our FORMER AMBASSADOR TO
CHINA DAVID MULRONEY, NOT TO BE
CONFUSED WITH BRIAN MULRONEY WHO
HAS BEEN OUR GUEST THANKS FOR
VISITING US AT TVO.

David says THANK YOU STEVE.

Watch: David Mulroney: The Far Eastern Colossus