Transcript: The Gender Divide in Tech | Nov 03, 2014

Steve sits in the studio, facing the camera. He’s in his forties or early fifties, slim and clean shaven, with short brown hair. He’s wearing a grey suit with a poppy on the lapel, light blue shirt and striped blue and yellow tie. Behind him, a title on a wall screen reads The Agenda with Steve Paikin.

Steve says A NEW REPORT BY
CATALYST FINDS
THAT WHEN IT COMES TO TECH.
INTENSIVE INDUSTRIES WOMEN
AREN'T NECESSARILY WELCOME WITH
MANY CHOOSING NOT TO ENTER THE
SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, ENGINEERING
OR MATH FIELDS AND MORE LIKELY
TO LEAVE ONCE THEY JOIN.
JOINING US NOW FOR MORE ON THE
TECH. GENDER GAP, ALEX JOHNSTON
EXECUTIVE COLLECTOR AT CATALYST
CANADA.

Alex is in her fifties, slim, with long, straight strawberry blond hair. She’s wearing a black jacket with a poppy on the lapel over a pink top.

Steve continues AND SAADIA MUZAFFAR, FOUNDER AND
CEO OF TECH GIRLS CANADA.

Saadia is in her thirties or early forties, slim, with short black hair. She’s wearing a yellow jacket with a poppy on the lapel and pearl earrings.

Steve continues JENNIFER EVANS, PRESIDENT OF
B2BNEWSNETWORK. NEWSNETWORK.COM
JUST LAUNCHED TODAY.

Jennifer is in her forties, heavyset, with neck length brown hair. She’s wearing a black cardigan with a poppy, over a striped black and white top.

Steve continues AND JAMIE LEVERTON,
VICE-PRESIDENT OF NORTH AMERICA
CARRIERS AT BLACKBERRY.

Jamie is in her forties, slim, with long, straight blond hair. She’s wearing a black jacket with a poppy on the lapel, over a white shirt.

Steve continues GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE FOR A LONG
OVERDUE DISCUSSION.
ALEX WE'LL START WITH YOU TO GO
THROUGH THE FINDINGS OF YOUR
REPORT AND I WANT TO START WITH
TELLING US WHAT IS CATALYST.


Alex says CATALYST IS A GLOBAL
NONPROFIT.
I RUN THE CANADA OPERATIONS.
WE WORK WITH LARGE BUSINESSES,
FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES TO HELP
THEM DEVELOP THEIR TALENT WELL
AND SPECIFIC FOCUS ON HELPING
THEM UNDERSTAND GENDER BARRIERS
IN THE WORK PLACE.

A caption reads The Gender (Tech) Divide, outsiders from the start.

Steve says AND HERE ARE THE
NUMBERS WE'LL CONSIDER THAT YOU
HAVE PUT TOGETHER.
LET'S BRING THESE UP.

As Steve reads, a graphic appears onscreen under the title Barriers for Women. BUSINESS ROLES IN TECH.
INTENSIVE INDUSTRIES.
FIFTY-THREE PERCENT OF WOMEN LEFT TO
TAKE A POSITION IN ANOTHER
INDUSTRY COMPARED TO JUST 31 PERCENT OF
MEN WHO DO THAT.
FIFTY-FIVE PERCENT OF WOMEN WERE MORE
LIKELY TO START IN ENTRY LEVEL
POSITIONS AND BE PAID LESS
COMPARED TO 39 PERCENT OF MEN.
THIS IS IS A ASSUME BEING THE
SAME EDUCATION LEVEL.
AND HIGH POTENTIAL MEN SO-CALLED
AND WOMEN, WERE LESS LIKELY TO
HAVE A FEMALE SUPERVISOR THAN
THOSE IN OTHER HAVE
OTHER INDUSTRIES AND 55 PERCENT OF
WOMEN REPORT UNCLEAR EVALUATION
CRITERIA.
IT'S ONLY 42 PERCENT IN OTHER
INDUSTRIES AND 84 PERCENT OF WOMEN
ASPIRE TO SENIOR EXECUTIVE/CEO
LEVELS COMPARED TO 97 PERCENT OF MEN.

At the bottom of the graph, a title reads – Anna Beninger, “High Potentials in Tech-Intensive Industries: The Gender Divide in Business Roles”, (Catalyst) October 23, 2014

Steve says AND LET'S START TO GO THROUGH
THROUGH THIS WHY DID YOU GO TO
THIS.

A caption reads Alex Johnston, Catalyst Canada.

Alex says THIS IS A LONG TERM STUDY
TRACKING MBA GRADS GLOBALLY.
WE ARE FOLLOWING 10,000 MEN AND
WILL AND THIS IS A SUB SET OF
THAT.
WE HAVE BEEN DOING IT SINCE
2008.
WE WANT TO FOCUS ON STEM.

Steve says STEM REMIND EVERYBODY.

Alex says SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY,
ENGINEERING AND MATHEMATICS.
EVERYBODY KNOWS THERE ARE
CHALLENGES, GETTING WOMEN IN
STEM AND KEEPING THEM IN STEM.
THE DIFFERENCE WITH THIS IS IT'S
FOCUSED ON MBA GRADS AND LOOKING
AT MEN AND WOMEN WITH A STEM
BACKGROUND AND ONCE THEY GO AND
DO THEIR MBA RETURN
TO STEM AS A SECTOR AND ONCE
THEY DO RETURN, WHETHER THEY
STAY, WHAT WE FOUND IS THAT ONCE
WOMEN HAVE A MBA THEY ARE
TYPICALLY NOT GOING BACK TO STEM
TO PURSUE THEIR CAREER AND IF
THEY DO GO BACK THE MAJORITY OF
THEM WILL LEAVE.
THAT IS CHALLENGING AND HAS
SIGNIFICANT RED FLAGS FOR THE
SECTOR AND IS A HUGE
DISADVANTAGE TO COMPANIES IN
THAT SECTOR NOT LEVERAGING THE
FULL COMPLIMENT OF TALENT IN
CANADA AND IT'S A DISADVANTAGE
FOR WOMEN BECAUSE THESE ARE
DESIRABLE JOBS AND COMPANIES TO
WORK IN.

Steve nods and says AND HOW DID YOU COME
TO THESE NUMBERS?

Alex says WE BASICALLY SURVEYED ABOUT
6,000 MBA GRADS AND BROKE DOWN
PATTERNS IN TERMS OF WHERE
PEOPLE WERE GOING, WHETHER THEY
WERE STAYING AND WE REALLY
WANTED TO DRILL DOWN AND LOOK AT
THE REASONS WHY THEY WERE
LEAVING.
YOU TABLED SOME OF THAT BUT THE
BIG THREE WE FOUND WOMEN WERE
SAYING IS HAVING VERY FEW OR NO
FEMALE MODELS OR MENTORS IN THE
WORK PLACE IS TOUGH.
UNCLEAR EVALUATION CRITERIA.
IT'S NOT CLEAR TO THEM HOW THEY
ADVANCE.
I THINK WHAT WE ARE GETTING AT
THERE IS EVEN IF YOU ARE SAYING
HERE ARE THE THREE THINGS WE
WANT TO SEE FROM YOU.
UNWRITTEN RULES ARE AS IMPORTANT
AS WRITTEN RULES AND THAT'S
PLAYING OUT SIGNIFICANTLY HERE.
AND THEN FEELING LIKE AN
OUTSIDER.
TYPICALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT GROUP
SETTINGS PEOPLE WANT TO FEEL
BOTH INCLUDED AND UNIQUE AND
WANT TO BE PART OF THE GROUP AND
ALSO WANT TO BE THEMSELVES.
WHAT WOMEN ARE TELLING US IN THIS
RESEARCH IS THAT THEY DO FEEL
LIKE OUTSIDERS AND WALKING INTO
A ROOM AND NEVER FEELING LIKE
YOU BELONG IS A TOUGH
EXPERIENCE.

Steve says AND I'LL GET THE
REST OF THE GROUP IN A SECOND.
ONE MORE QUESTION.
IS THERE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND
BUT THAT THIS SECTOR IN
PARTICULAR IS MORE SEXIST THAN
MANY OTHERS?

Alex says CERTAINLY WHAT THIS IS TELLING
US IS IT'S A CHALLENGING
CULTURE.
WE SEE THESE PATTERNS GLOBALLY.
WE SEE THEM IN A MORE PRONOUNCED
WAY IN THE SECTOR AND THAT'S A
RED FLAG THAT THEY HAVE AN
OPPORTUNITY TO ADDRESS.

Steve says OKAY LET'S GO AROUND
THE TABLE HERE.
JENNIFER TELL US ABOUT YOUR WEB
SITE WHICH LAUNCHED TODAY WHAT
IS THAT.

A caption reads Jennifer Evans, B2Bnewsnetwork.com.

Jennifer says THIS IS A SITE FOR
PROFESSIONALS IN THE B2B SPACE
AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE HEARD
OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS IS IS
THERE A SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT
IN CONTENT MARKETING AND
COMPANIES THAT INVEST IN CONTENT
MARKETING WHICH TEND TO BE
TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES, BY AND
LARGE, ARE FINDING DIFFICULTY
ACTUALLY GETTING THIS ABILITY
AROUND THESE ASSETS SO WE'LL
COVER THE SPACE BUT ALSO MAKING
A CONNECTION THROUGH THE
GENERATION.
A BIT OF AN EXPERIMENT.

Steve says AND WHAT DO YOU DO
THERE?

Jennifer nods and says I AM THE PRESIDENT AND CO-
FOUNDER.

Steve says SO YOU ARE IN CHARGE
OF THE WHOLE THING.

Jennifer smiles and says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says AND HOW MUCH HAVE
YOU SPENT SO FAR.

Jennifer says WE ARE DOING THIS LEANLY AND
INVESTED IN A DOMAIN NAME AND
HAVE AN EXISTING TEAM THAT'S
BASICALLY DEPLOYED ON THIS AND A
COUPLE OF SPONSORS SO IT'S GOING
WELL SO FAR.

A caption reads The Gender (Tech) Divide, a “brogramming” culture?

Steve says AND LET'S FIND OUT
OTHER PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCES
HERE.
JAIME WHAT DO YOU DO.

A caption reads Jamie Leverton, Blackberry.

Jamie says I AM THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF
NORTH AMERICAN CARRIERS AT
BLACKBERRY.
I RECENTLY JOINED BLACKBERRY IN
JULY HAVING SPENT FIVE PREVIOUS
YEARS AT BELL AND TEN YEARS
BEFORE THAT AT IBM AFTER
GRADUATING WITH MY MBA.
I AM A MBA GRAD AND BEEN IN
TECH. FOR THE PAST 15 YEARS.

Steve says AND HOW DO YOU ENJOY
IT.

Jamie says I REALLY ENJOY IT.
IT'S CHALLENGING.

Steve says WHY.

Jamie looks pensive and says CHALLENGING TO BE THE MINORITY
IN MOST ROOMS THAT I AM IN.

Steve says SO YOU DON'T MEAN
CHALLENGING BECAUSE IT'S
BLACKBERRY BUT TECH IS CHALLENGING....

Jamie says TECH IS CHALLENGING AS A
WOMAN I DIDN'T NOTICE IT WHEN I
STARTED AT IBM, THERE WAS MORE
OF A GENDER MIX BUT TO BECAME
MORE PREVALENT AS I ADVANCED IN
MY CAREER AND THE FURTHER UP THE
LADDER I WENT IN MY CAREER THE
MORE I REALIZED I WAS A LONEIER
VOICE AS A WOMAN AT THE TABLE.
AND ACTUALLY, WHAT I FOUND AS I
BECAME AWARE OF THAT IS IT MADE
ME WANT TO USE THAT VOICE MORE
OFTEN, MORE LOUDLY AND I BECAME
MUCH MORE PASSIONATE ABOUT
GENDER ISSUES IN TECHNOLOGY.
AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT I
CONTINUE TO BE VERY PASSIONATE
ABOUT TODAY.
I THINK THAT TECH. IS THE
FUTURE.
I HAVE TWO DAUGHTERS, THEY ARE
FOUR AND SIX, AND I THINK IT'S
ONE OF THE AREAS THAT THEY WILL
MOST LIKELY GO INTO WHEN THEY
ARE CAREER READY, AND I WANT
THEM TO GO INTO AN INDUSTRY THAT
THEY CAN LOVE AND THAT THEY CAN
FEEL WELCOME IN.

Steve says WHEN GO TO SENIOR
STAFF MEETINGS WHERE, LET'S SAY,
THE PRESIDENT AND ALL THE VPs
AND EVPs ARE THERE, HOW MANY
ARE MEN AND HOW MANY ARE WOMEN.

Jamie says I WOULD SAY OVER THE COURSE OF
ALL THREE COMPANIES IT'S BETWEEN
TEN AND 15 PERCENT OF ANY ROOM WOULD BE
WOMEN AT THE SENIOR LEVEL.

Steve says SAADIA TELL US ABOUT
TECH GIRLS CANADA.

A caption reads Saadia Muzaffar, Techgirls Canada.

Saadia says THAT'S A DIRECT RESULT OF ME
NOT FINDING ENOUGH WOMEN THAT I
COULD NETWORK WITH WHEN I
CROSSED OVER INTO TECHNOLOGY
FROM FINANCE.
AND THAT WAS SHOCKING TO ME FOR
THE FIRST YEAR BECAUSE OUT OF
THE 114 OR SO STARTUPS THAT I
WORKED WITH IN A TECHNOLOGY AND
INNOVATION CENTRE, MAYBE TWO HAD
WOMEN.
AND I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT, THAT
STATISTICALLY THAT IT WAS EVEN
POSSIBLE.

Steve says TWO HAD JUST WOMEN
AT ALL.

Saadia says AT ALL IN THE FOUNDING TEAMS
BECAUSE YOUR WORKING WITH
STARTUPS.
THAT JUST FELT WRONG THAT YOU
WOULD CROSS INTO THIS WARP
ZONE.
SO TECHGIRLS CANADA WANTS TO
CHANGE THAT CONVERSATION BY
ABRIDGING THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND
NOT FOR PROFIT SECTOR TO FORM
PARTNERSHIP THAT IS MOVE THE
NEEDLE RATHER THAN GENERATE
REPORTS THAT GET SHELVED AND
NOTHING REALLY HAPPENS BECAUSE
THERE IS A DIVIDE BETWEEN THE
TWO SECTORS WHERE EACH FEELS THE
OTHER DOESN'T UNDERSTAND HOW
THEIR WORLD OPERATES.

Steve says WHEN YOU DO WHAT YOU
DO AND YOU PRESENT THESE
FINDINGS, FOR EXAMPLE, TO MALE
DOMINATED COMPANIES IN YOUR
SECTOR, DO THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THIS
AS A THING?

Saadia says I THINK IT'S BECOMING BETTER
NOW, IN TERMS
ACKNOWLEDGMENT,
BUT THERE IS STILL A SENSE OF IS
THIS A PROBLEM WE WANT TO TACKLE
AND I THINK THAT'S PRIMARILY
BECAUSE OF WHAT'S COME OUT IN
THE PAST HAS BEEN BASED ON THE
SOCIAL JUSTICE ASPECT OF IT,
WHICH IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT IN
TERMS OF FAIRNESS.
BUT, THERE IS A WHOLE ECONOMIC SIDE
TO THIS ARGUMENT THAT
DOESN'T GET ENOUGH AIR TILE AND
THAT NEEDS TO BE TABLED FAR MORE
OFTEN AND MORE CLEARLY.

Steve says AND WHAT IS THE ECONOMIC
ARGUMENT.

Saadia says HAVING WOMEN AND DIVERSITY AND
WOMEN OF COLOUR AND GENLDER
QUEER PEOPLE AND EVERYONE AT THE
TABLE IS GOOD FOR BUSINESS.
IT'S GOOD FOR THE BOTTOM LINE
AND AFFECT YOUR RETURN ON
EQUITY.
IT'S GOOD FOR SHAREHOLDER
PERCEPTION OF WHAT YOUR COMPANY
DOES.

Jennifer nods and says AND IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE WE
STILL HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE
LOOKING FOR JOBS THERE ARE A
TREMENDOUS NUMBER OF JOBS IN THE
SEC TEXTOR THAT GO UNFILLED
EVERY YEAR AND BY UPGRADING
SKILLS AND BY BECOMING A PART OF
THAT ENVIRONMENT, YOU CAN
INCREASE YOUR EARNING
POTENTIAL.

Steve says LET ME MAKE THE
DEVIL'S ADVOCATE ARGUMENT WHICH
IS IF MORE WOMEN WANTED TO GO
INTO TECH. THEY COULD AND THE
REASON IT'S 85/15 TO USE JAIME'S
NUMBERS IS THAT OVERWHELMINGLY
MEN WANT TO DO THIS AND
OVERWHELMINGLY WOMEN DON'T WANT TO DO
THIS.
IS THAT THE ARGUMENT.

Alex says TOTALLY FALSE.
WHAT I LOVE ABOUT THE RESEARCH
AND THE RESEARCH IS EVIDENCE AND
THEN YOU TURN THE RESEARCH.
PRACTICAL STRATEGIES
AND TRY IT DEVIEF A PRACTICAL
CONVERSATION.
THERE HAVE SPECIFIC REASONS WHY
WILL DON'T CHOOSE IT AND WHY
THEY ARE NOT STAYING.
ANY GOOD BUSINESS LEADER WHO
THINKS ABOUT TALENT AND SOME OF
THEM DO, LOOK AT THIS AND SAYS
OH, I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT I
AM LOOKING AT A HUNDRED PERCENT
OF MY TALENT POOL AND GETTING
THE BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST.

Steve says SO IT'S NOT A
QUESTION OF WOMEN DON'T WANT TO
GO INTO THE FIELD BUT A QUESTION
OF ONCE THEY ARE IN IT'S NOT
WELCOMING.

Alex says WILL AND MEN WANT GOOD JOBS
AND CAREERS AND THESE ARE THE
CAREERS OF THE FUTURE.
YOU KNOW, WE'LL NEED A WHOLE
RANGE OF PEOPLE GOING INTO
DIFFERENT FIELDS BUT FOR WOMEN
NOT TO BE CHOOSING THIS AND NOT
TO BE STAYING IS REALLY TOUGH.
WHAT THIS IS TELLING US IS THERE
ARE SPECIFIC BARRIERS AND
OBSTACLES THAT BUSINESS
LEADERS CAN ADDRESS SO IT'S
POSITIVE.

Steve says CAN I GET MORE
SPECIFIC HERE.
NAMELY, IF WE'RE GOING TO
UNDERSTAND THIS, WE NEED TO
UNDERSTAND EXAMPLES OF WHAT KIND
OF SEXISM WOMEN RUN INTO IN A
FIELD OVERRUN BY MEN.
SO, ANYBODY GOT AN EXAMPLE HERE
THEY WANT TO SHARE?

Saadia says WE COULD BE HERE ALL DAY IF I
WENT THROUGH THAT.

Steve says REALLY.
GIVE US AN EXAMPLE.

Saadia says A GOOD EXAMPLE IS IN MY WORLD
WHICH IS TECHNOLOGY
ENTREPRENEURSHIP, STARTUPS,
WOMEN NEED TO LEAD THEIR TEAM
AND RAISE FUNDS AND ONE OF THE
BIGGEST BARRIERS THEY RUN INTO
ONCE THEY HAVE GONE PAST THE
NOTION OF "I HAVE AN IDEA AND I
WANT TO BUILD IN" IS RAISE
FUNDING AND THEY WOULD OFTEN,
VERY CLEARLY HEAR TERMS LIKE, IF
YOU ONLY WORE A SHORTER SKIRT
THIS WOULD WORK FOR YOU.
I HAVE -- I KNOW PEOPLE
PERSONALLY WHO GOT THESE
COMMENTS.

Steve says I DON'T KNOW.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN.

Saadia says THAT MEANS YOU NEED TO PRESENT
YOURSELF A CERTAIN WAY OR IT
COULD JUST MEAN AS BLATANTLY
SEXIST AS IT SOUNDS.
I DON'T THINK IT'S COMPLICATED.
I THINK WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO IS
WHAT DO WE TOLERATE?
IS THERE A HUGE BYSTANDER
CULTURE IN TECHNOLOGY WHERE
EVERYBODY SEES THESE THINGS
HAPPENING, SO THERE IS THE
PASSIVE SIDE OF BIAS AND
AND DISCRIMINATION BUT IS THERE
SAY ACTIVE SIDE OF HARASSMENT,
AND WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH BUY-IN
FROM THE TOP DOWN TO SAY "WE
WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS."
THERE ISN'T ENOUGH OF A CULTURE
OF ACCOUNTABILITY WHERE YOU CAN
CALL SOMEBODY OUT.
JUST BECAUSE THERE IS A POLICY
HR HAS IN THE MANUAL DOESN'T
MEAN IT GETS IMPLEMENTED.

Alex frowns and says AND WHEN WE TOUCH ON IT HERE
BUT IT'S THE DIFFERENT
CONVERSATION RIGHT OUT OF THE
GATE AND THAT TO ME IS A
SIGNIFICANT ISSUE.
WHAT WE FOUND IN THE GLOBAL
STUDY AND WE DON'T DRAW IT OUT
HERE IS WHEN WE LOOK AT FINAL
ALLOCATION AND WE ASK MEN AND
WOMEN A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO ARE
YOU GETTING JOB EXPERIENCE TO
THE ORGANIZATION AND THEY BOTH
SAID YES WE ARE AND THIS IS
THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF
INDIVIDUALS AND THEN WE DRILLED
DOWN AND LOOKED AT THE FILES
AND FOUND ON AVERAGE MEN'S
PROJECTS WERE TWICE THAT OF
THEIR FEMALE COUNTER PARTS IN
TERMS OF MONETARY VALUE AND
SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EXPOSURE TO
SENIOR EXECUTIVES.
THE FILE ALLOCATION AND PROJECT
ALLOCATION HAS SIGNIFICANT
THINGS AND PEOPLE DECIDING WHO
THEY TRUST AND HOW.
YOU LOOK AT EQUALLY CAPABLE,
SKILLED, COMPETENT PEOPLE AND
RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE YOU ARE
PUTTING THEY WILL ON DIFFERENT
CAREER TRACKS.
THAT'S NOT SEXISM IN THE WAY WE
DEFINE IT AND PEOPLE
DELIBERATELY DO AND SAY THINGS
BUT PART OF WHO WE ARE AND WHAT
WE BRING TO THE TABLE.
WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS SAY TO
BUSINESS LEADERS, LOOK AT YOUR
DECISION MAKING AND MAKE SURE
YOU ARE MAKING THESE DECISIONS
IN A WAY THAT ALLOWS MEN AND
WOMEN TO ADVANCE THEIR CAREERS
AND FULFIL THEIR POTENTIAL AND
ACHIEVE THEIR POTENTIAL AND
CONTRIBUTE TO THE ORGANIZATION.

Saadia says MUCH THE SAME WAY YOU WOULD
DEFINE LEADERSHIP, THAT NEEDS
REVISITING.
ALL THE QUALITIES THAT WE
ASSOCIATE WITH LEADERSHIP TODAY
ARE A NEGATIVE FOR WOMEN.
WOMEN WOULD BE, IN THEIR
PERFORMANCE APPRAISALS, ASSESSED
AS ABRASIVE, WHEREAS THE VERY
SAME ASSESSMENT FOR A MALE
COUNTER PART.

Steve says SURE, TOUGH OF WHATEVER.
BUT THAT'S CROSS SECTORAL. WE HEAR THOSE COMMENTS
ANYWHERE.
IS THERE A TECH. THAT MAKES IT
MORE SEXIST?

Saadia says IF YOU HAVE A VAST MAJORITY OF
THE DECISION MAKERS IN
TECHNOLOGY BEING MALE AND NOT
JUST MALE BUT WHITE MALE, I
THINK YOU LOOK FOR PEOPLE LIKE
YOURSELVES AND THEY SURROUND
THEMSELVES.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DOES NOT
GET TALKED ABOUT OFTEN IS TECH
AS WE KNOW IT IS RELATIVELY
YOUNG.
YOU ARE LOOKING AT COMPANIES
LIKE FACEBOOK, LIKE BLACKBERRY.
THEIR TENURE IS UNDER 15 YEARS
AND WHEN YOU BUILD A COMPANY
THAT GOES FROM A GARAGE TO A
MULTIBILLION DOLLARS IPO IN A
SPAN OF A DECADE, YOU ARE NOT
REALLY PUTTING A LOT OF THOUGHT
IN HOW YOU HIRE PEOPLE, WHO ARE
YOU SURROUNDING YOURSELVES WITH
AND WHAT ARE YOU FUNDING?
YOU ARE ACTUALLY CHECKING IN
WITH A LOT OF GUT FEEL, WHICH IS
SOMETHING THAT DATA SHOWS IS
BIASED.

Jennifer says AND IT'S TYPICAL THAT YOU HIRE
PEOPLE THAT LOOK LIKE YOU, THAT
ARE FAMILIAR, THAT AGREE WITH
YOU, THAT HAVE THE SAME KINDS OF
OPINIONS, IT'S AN OPINION BIAS
UNFORTUNATELY.
AND I THINK THAT THERE IS ALSO A
COUNTER PART TO THAT WHICH IS
THAT WOMEN CAN BE TERMED AS
ABRASIVE.
I HAD AN EXPERIENCE WHERE I WAS
IN A MANAGEMENT MEETING AND I
WAS VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT WHAT I
WAS TALKING ABOUT AND TOO
PASSIONATE,
I BROKE INTO TEARS IN THE MIDDLE
OF THE MEETING AND
I PRETTY MUCH HAD TO LEAVE THE
COMPANY THERE AFTER BECAUSE I
WAS THE ONLY WOMAN ON THE
MANAGEMENT TEAM, I WAS THE
YOUNGEST PERSON AND AFTER THAT
ALL THE MEN I WAS WORKING WITH
LOOKED AT ME DIFFERENTLY.

Steve says THEY DIDN'T TAKE YOU
AS SERIOUSLY.

Jennifer says THEY DIDN'T.
THEY LOOKED AT ME AS EMOTIONAL
AND MY HEART WAS IN THE RIGHT
PLACE.
I HAD THE PASSION IT JUST CAME
OUT THE WRONG WAY AND COMPLETELY
KILLED MY CAREER.

Steve says THAT'S STRANGE
BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN NO
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
THAT HAS CRIED MORE IN PUBLIC
THAN GEORGE W. BUSH BUT
EVERYBODY THINKS OF HIM AS A
BIG, YOU KNOW, TOUGH, MACHO,
STRONG TEXAS SWAGGER.
THAT'S A TERRIBLE DOUBLE
STANDARD

Steve turns to Jamie and says
AND HOW ABOUT YOU IN
TERMS OF SEXISM -- NOW I DON'T
KNOW.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT TO SAY
ANYTHING ABOUT BLACKBERRY
BUT IN GENERAL.

Jamie smiles, nods and says A COUPLE OF THINGS.
EARLY IN MY CAREER I HAD A
MENTOR WHO WAS VERY, VERY GOOD
TO ME AND IS STILL A CLOSE
FRIEND TO THIS DAY AND AS I
STARTED TO MOVE UP THE RANKS HE
PULLED ME ASIDE AND SAID I KNOW
YOU HAVE STRONG ASPIRATIONS, YOU
ARE VERY, VERY COMPETENT BUT IF
YOU WANT TO TAKE ON INCREASINGLY
SENIOR ROLES, YOU ARE GOING TO
HAVE TO BE LESS NICE.
PEOPLE LOOK AT YOU AND THEY
THINK YOU ARE NICE, YOU ARE
FRIENDLY AND HE SAID AND YOU
ARE.
BUT YOU CAN'T LEAD WITH THAT.
YOU HAVE GOT -- YOU ARE NOT
GOING TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY IF
PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE NICE OR TOO
NICE OR TOO FRIENDLY.

Steve says AND WHAT DID YOU
THINK OF THAT ADVICE?

Jamie smiles and says I DIDN'T LIKE IN THE BEGINNING
FOR SURE AND I STRUGGLED WITH IT
BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO BE
SOMEBODY DIFFERENT AT WORK.
BUT WHAT HE WAS REALLY TRYING TO
TELL ME WAS I HAD TO SHOW UP
DIFFERENTLY IN THE BEGINNING.
AND IT'S ADVICE THAT.

Steve says DID HE MEAN BE LESS
FEMALE IS THAT WHAT YOU
INTERPRETED IT TO BE.

Jamie says I DON'T THINK HE COUNSELED
ANY MALE TO BE LESS NICE.

Steve says GOTCHA.

Jamie says I THINK PARTICULARLY AT THE
TIME I WAS VERY YOUNG, AND BEING
PERCEIVED AS BUBBLY OR
FRIENDLY OR NICE WASN'T A WAY TO
GET AHEAD, IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.
I TELL THAT STORY A LOT WITH
GIRLS I MENTOR NOW, BECAUSE I
WANT THEM TO BE THEIR WHOLE
SELVES AT WORK.
BEEN THEIR WHOLE SELF AT WORK
BUT THERE IS A WAY TO BE YOUR
WHOLE SELF AND BE TAKEN
SERIOUSLY AND YOU HAVE TO LOOK
TO FIND IN A BALANCE, BUT AS I
SAY, I DON'T THINK MEN ARE
COACHED BASED ON THEIR LEVEL OF
NICENESS.

Steve says BUT YOU LIKE THIS
GUY?

Jamie says VERY MUCH.

Steve says AND SEWS NOT BEING
PURPOSEFULLY JERKISH.

Jamie says ABSOLUTELY NOT.
HE WAS ABSOLUTELY DOING ME A
FAVOUR.
HE AT LEAST HAD THE COURAGE TO
TELL ME WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WERE
PROBABLY THINKING BUT WOULDN'T
SAY AND HE COULD SAY IT.

Jennifer says LET'S FACE IT, AS WOMEN, WE
ARE BROUGHT UP TO BE NICE.
WE KEEP THE PEACE, AND I AM
GENERALIZING HERE BUT WE TEND TO
BE THE PEOPLE WHO GET THINGS
DONE AND SMOOTH THE WATERS OVER
AND IT'S HARD FOR US AT SOME
POINT TO LEAP OUT OF THAT AND
SAY, YOU KNOW, I NEED TO BE A
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WAY IN
ORDER TO GET THINGS DONE.
THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY A NATURAL
PROGRESSION.

Steve says HAVE ANY OF YOU OR
ALL OF YOU AT SOME POINT IN YOUR
CAREERS EXPERIENCED SOME GUY
TELLING YOU, YOU KNOW, THAT'S
NOT HOW YOU SHOULD DRESS IN THIS
PARTICULAR COMPANY OR ON THIS
PARTICULAR PROJECT, WITH ADVICE
THAT OBVIOUSLY HE WOULD NEVER
GIVE TO A FELLOW MAN?
HAS THAT HAPPENED?

Alex says I THINK I RECEIVED GREAT
ADVICE AND TERRIBLE ADVICE.
THE OLDER YOU GET YOUR BETTER
ABLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN BAD
ADVICE AND RELEVANT ADVICE.
THE BENEFIT IN HAVING A DIVERSE
SET OF ROLE MODELS IS YOU SEE
YOURSELF IN DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

A caption reads Alex Johnston, Catalyst Canada.

Alex continues WHEN YOU CAN'T SEE YOURSELF IN
ANYONE, I ALWAYS DESCRIBE MYSELF
AS A FEISTY PASSIONATE HAND
TALKER AND I DO CRY AND I DO GET
EMOTIONAL AND MY HANDS ARE GOING
AND AIM SURE THAT 25 YEARS AGO
THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE
JARRING THAN IT IS TOO BECAUSE I
SEE WOMEN LIKE THAT.
THE WOMEN I ADMIRE ARE VERY MUCH
THEMSELVES.
AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY
STARTED OUT AT 22 EXACTLY THE
WAY THEY ARE AT 52 BUT KATIE
TAYLOR SAYS WHEN YOU HAVE A MALE
MENTOR OR ROLE PIECES OF
HARDWARE MODEL OR SPONSOR MEET
THE WIFE.
AND IF HE IS MARRIED TO A
STRONG, GROUNDED WOMAN, HE IS
NOT GOING TO
HAVE ANY DIFFICULTY WITH YOU
BEING STRONG.

Steve says THIS IS THE FIRST FEMALE BANK
CHAIR IN HISTORY.

Alex nods and says FOR RBC, YES.
AND I THINK IN THE END OF THE DAY,
BEING ABLE TO DISTINGUISH FROM
ADVICE THAT'S HELPFUL AND
RELEVANT AND A STEREOTYPE
THAT'S NOT RELEVANT IS IMPORTANT
AND COMES WITH TIME.

Steve says LET ME ASK THE NEXT
LEVEL QUESTION WHICH IS -- AND
WE GO THROUGH THIS IN POLITICS
ALL THE TIME WHERE PEOPLE
FREQUENTLY TELL US WOMEN BRING
SOMETHING DIFFERENT TO THE TABLE
IN POLITICS AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE
IT AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT,
SOCIETY WILL LOSE OUT.
IS IT THE SAME THING, SAADIA
WHEN IT COMES TO THE TECH. WORLD
THAT IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT THERE
AND PRESENCE, WE ALL LOSE OUT
SOME HOW?

A caption reads Saadia Muzaffar, Techgirls Canada.

Saadia says I AM VERY WARY OF NOTIONS LIKE
THAT, PRIMARILY BECAUSE THEY ARE
SET IN A GENDER BINARY THAT'S
NOT APPLICABLE ANY MORE.
WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT WHEN
YOU HAVE DIVERSITY OF GENDER AND
POINT OF VIEWS AROUND YOUR
TABLE, YOU ARE LESS LIKELY TO
MAKE CERTAIN DECISIONS THAT
WOULD BE BIASED TOWARDS PEOPLE
WHO ARE DIFFERENT FROM YOU.
SO IT'S NOT JUST THE FACT THAT
WHEN YOU HAVE WOMEN AROUND THE
TABLE, WHAT THEY OFFER IS INPUT,
IS WHAT CHANGES THE GAME.
IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AROUND
THE TABLE WHO ARE AFFECTED BY
THE FACT THAT THEY ARE NOT
SURROUNDED BY A REPLICA OF
THEMSELVES AND IT'S NOT A ECHO
CHAMBER.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAN OFFER
DIFFERENT PRIORITIES AND SAY
HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THE
IMPLICATIONS OF THIS OF WHAT
OTHERS MIGHT THINK SAY
MINORITY.
SO IF GOES BOTH WAYS.
IT'S NOT JUST A SPECIAL
SOMETHING THAT WOMEN CAN BRING
THOUGH THERE ARE A LOT OF
PERSPECTIVES.

Steve says AND I WANT TO FOLLOW
UP WITH JAIME ON THAT.
WHEN YOU ARE IN THOSE
MEETINGS AND LET'S PICK ON
BLACKBERRY, YOU ARE ONE OF 15 PERCENT
IN THE ROOM WHO ARE FEMALE.
DO THE WOMEN THERE THINK THEY
ARE BRINGING SOMETHING DIFFERENT
TO BLACKBERRY IN TERMS OF
SMARTS, CONTRIBUTION, AWARENESS
OF PRODUCT OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE
THAT THE MEN WON'T HAVE BECAUSE
YOU ARE NOT MEN?

A caption reads Jamie Leverton, Blackberry.

Jamie says I WOULDN'T SAY IT IN TERMS AS
BLACK AND WHITE AS THAT.
I WOULD SAY FOR MOST TECH.
COMPANIES, YOUR CONSUMERS ARE
50 PERCENT WOMEN.
IF YOU DON'T HAVE FEMALES AT THE
TABLE IN ALL STEPS, THE CHANCE
OF YOU BEING ABLE TO BEST CREATE
PRODUCTS AND CREATE PROGRAMS
THAT ADDRESS YOUR MARKETPLACE
ARE REDUCED, BECAUSE IF YOU
DON'T HAVE 50 PERCENT OF WOMEN AT THE
TABLE YOU ARE NOT NECESSARILY
GETTING THE PERSPECTIVE THAT
GOES TO 50 PERCENT OF YOUR
SHAREHOLDERS OR
CONSUMERS.

Steve says I CAN'T EMERGENCY ANY TECH.
COMPANY HAS 50 PERCENT OF WOMEN
IN MANAGEMENT POSITIONS AND YET
50 PERCENT OF THEIR COMMERCE ARE
WOMEN.

Jennifer nods and says AND HAVE 80 PERCENT OF THE
HOUSEHOLD SPENDING POWER.

Steve says AND SO SOMEHOW THESE COMPANIES
ARE DOING WELL ENOUGH -- AND
PEOPLE ARE OUT THERE MAKING
BILLIONS EVEN THOUGH WOMEN ARE
NOT WELL REPRESENTED IN DECISION
MAKING CAPACITIES.

Alex says IT'S THE 15 PERCENT THAT'S THE
ISSUE.
THIRTY PERCENT IS A CRITICAL MASS.
ONCE YOU HAVE 30 PERCENT OF ANYTHING IN
A ROOM, IN ANY ONE GROUP.

Steve says WHAT HAPPENS.

Alex says THE CULTURE STARTS TO CHANGE.
IT'S NOT THAT YOU WON'T HAVE ONE
WOMAN AROUND A TAIBL
TABLE OF TEN BUT ONCE YOU
HAVE 30 PERCENT THE CULTURE CHANGES.
THE 15 PERCENT IS THE CHALLENGE AND
BUILDING ON THAT IS THE
OBJECTIVE.
WEATHER WE GET TO 50/50 --
LIVING IN A WORLD OF 50/50 IS
NOT REALISTIC.
WHAT WE ARE SAYING HERE, THE
CONVERSATION IS HAVING TOO FEW
WOMEN IS A PROBLEM.
I THINK THAT CHANGING THE
DYNAMIC AROUND A TABLE TAKES A
CRITICAL MASS.
I DON'T THINK AT THIS POINT
PEOPLE ARE TALKING IN TERMS OF
50/50.
THEY ARE SAYING ALARM BELLS ARE
GOING OFF BECAUSE MANY COMPANIES
MIGHT DO WELL TODAY BUT THE
WORLD CHANGES AT THE SPEED OF
LIGHT AND MAKING SURE YOU HAVE
THE BEST TALENT FOR THE NEXT
FIVE, 15, 20 YEARS.

A caption reads Jennifer Evans, B2Bnewsnetwork.com.

Jennifer says AND THE QUESTION IS WHAT
HAPPENED BECAUSE UP UNTIL 1984 WOMEN DOMINATED
COMPUTERS BUT THEN THE NUMBERS
GO DOWN AND THE MALE NUMBERS GO
UP.

Steve says ANYBODY HAVE A THEORY ON
THAT?
WHAT WAS MAGIC ABOUT THAT?

Jennifer says THE 80s, PUFFY SHOULDERS.

Saadia says I THINK WHAT WE
CONSIDER HI-TECH IS WHAT
HAPPENED.
A LOT OF TECHNOLOGY SHIFTED TO
SOFTWARE WHICH IS WHAT WE SEE
TODAY AND WE SEE THAT NO MATTER
WHAT SECTOR YOU ARE IN, WHETHER
YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF WITHIN
TECHNOLOGY YOU ARE PERIPHERAL TO
IT OR YOU ARE USING IT AND
THAT'S FAIRLY RECENT.
VERY, VERY SHORT TIME FRAME WHEN
YOU THINK ABOUT A SECTOR AND THE
DEVELOPMENT OF CULTURE AND
EXPECTATIONS AND ALL OF THAT SO
MAYBE 1984 WAS THE MAGIC
YEAR WHEN THINGS CHANGED.

Steve says I DON'T KNOW ABOUT
THIS SO HELP ME OUT HERE BUT THE
GUYS WHO WERE SUPERSTARS IN THIS
FIELD ARE GUYS WHO ARE HAPPY TO
SIT ALONE IN THEIR BASEMENTS AND
WRITE CODE FOR 20 HOURS A DAY.
DO WOMEN WANT TO DO THAT?

Jamie says SOME WOMEN DO WANT TO WRITE
CODE, ABSOLUTELY.

Saadia says TECHGIRLS HAS A CAMPAIGN
CALLED PORTRAITS OF STRENGTH.
WE RAN IT SINCE MARCH OF THIS
YEAR AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE
WOMEN FEATURED THERE, THEY ARE
PRIMARILY NOT YOUR USUAL
SUSPECTS AS YOU MENTIONED.
THEY ARE VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT
WHAT THEY DO.
THEY ARE IN GAMING.
THEY ARE DIGITAL ACTIVISTS WHO
REWRITE GAMES TO REPRESENT
BETTER WHAT A PROTAGONIST SHOULD
BE SO WOMEN AREN'T ALWAYS
GETTING RESCUED IN GAMES AND
THEY CAN ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW,
CHANGE THAT.
AND THEY ARE CODERS.

Steve says IN WHICH CASE WHAT WAS YOUR
REACTION TO THIS GAMER-GATE
WHERE A WOMAN WHO'S TRYING TO
MAKE
VIDEO GAMES ACTUALLY LOOK MORE
REALISTIC AND SANER THAN THE
GUYS WHO PROGRAM THEM IN THE
FIRST PLACE ARE AND SHE HAD A
HEAP OF MISERY COME DOWN ON HER
HEAD AS A RESULT OF THAT.

A caption reads The Gender (Tech) Divide, the tipping point?

Saadia says THE THING THAT I WANT TO UNDER
SCORE WITH THAT IS THAT EVEN
THOUGH EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT
ANITA AND WHAT HAPPENED WITH HER
WITH GAMER-GATE SHE IS NOT THE
ONLY ONE.
THIS IS ACTUALLY HAVE HE VERY
COMMON TO THE POINT WHERE MOST
OF THE WOMEN IN GAMING KNOW
ABOUT THIS AND NOW WE HAVE A
HASHTAG AND A NAME TO TALK ABOUT
IT BUT IT'S NOT JUST IN GAMING.
I THINK IT EXISTS IN DIFFERENT
VERSIONS IN MANY PLACES THAT ARE
MALE DOMINANT AND THERE IS A
SHIFT THAT'S HAPPENING AND THAT
SHIFT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS
LOOKED UPON FAVOURABLY BY THE
PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT THEY RULED
WHAT I WILL CALL THE PROGRAM
CULTURE.

Jennifer says AND LOOK AT KATHY SIERRA THAT
PREDATES GAMER-GATE.

Steve says AND WHAT'S THE
STORY.

Jennifer says SHE IS ONE OF THE MOST
RENOWNED USABILITY.
SHE WROTE A BOOK CALLED CREATING
PASSIONATE USERS AND CAME FROM A
TECHNICAL BACKGROUND AND GOT
TARGETED BECAUSE SHE HAD SOME
PROMINENCE, BY AN ON LINE
TROLL NAMED WEAVE, WHO DID
SOMETHING CALLED DOXING HER AND
PUT HER PUBLIC INFORMATION OUT
SO PEOPLE COULD FIND OUT WHERE
SHE LIVED AND SHE WITHDREW FROM
THE INTERNET IMMEDIATELY AND YOU
KNOW, IT WAS A REAL LOSS TO THE
COMMUNITY BECAUSE SHE IS A
REALLY SIGNIFICANT, POWERFUL
VOICE FOR WOMEN IN TECHNOLOGY
AND FOR USERS IN THE SPACE.
AND SHE CAME BACK TO TWITTER FOR
A LITTLE WHILE AND THEN IT
HAPPENED AGAIN AND SHE HAS GONE
AGAIN AND THAT'S ONE OF THE
LEADERS IN OUR COMMUNITY AND SHE
DOESN'T FEEL SAFE ENOUGH TO BE
ABLE TO HAVE AN ON LINE
PRESENCE.

Steve says BUT THIS IS
DIFFERENT, CLEARLY FROM WOMEN
DON'T MAKE A HIGH ENOUGH
PERCENTAGE OF EXECUTIVE
MANAGEMENT.
THIS IS HARASSMENT, THIS IS
FEAR, THIS IS THREATENING.

Sadia says I THINK WE CAN'T PRETEND THAT
THE ON LINE RAPE AND DEATH
THREATS DO NOT HAVE AN EFFECT ON
WOMEN WANTING TO BE IN
TECHNOLOGY.

Jamie nods as Jennifer says EXACTLY!

Saadia says WE CAN'T PRETEND THAT THAT
DOESN'T MATTER.

Steve says WHAT'S THAT ABOUT?
THIS IS MEN SIMPLY WANTING TO
HAVE THIS SECTOR BE ALL MALE?

Saadia nods and says YES.
PRIMARILY, THAT'S -- SO WHAT
THEY ARE SAYING IS IT'S CHANGING
AND WE DON'T LIKE IT.
THAT'S WHAT IT REALLY BOILS DOWN
TO.
BECAUSE A LOT OF THE THINGS IN
GAMER-GATE WHICH HAS NOW BECOME
A MEME, THAT THIS IS ABOUT ET I
ETHICS IN GAMES JOURNALISM BUT
IT'S NOT.
IT DIDN'T START WITH THIS AND I
THINK REPORTS LIKE THE ONE
CATALYST PUT OUT ARE IMPORTANT.
BUT THEY ARE ONE ASPECT OF WHAT
WE NEED TO ADDRESS.
WHAT I REALLY WANT TO SAY IS,
ARE WE ACTUALLY READY NOW TO
TALK ABOUT THE MORE ACTIVE SORTS
OF FACTORS THAT AFFECT WOMEN'S
DESIRE TO ENTER TECH, TO STAY
IN IT?
A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL TELL YOU
THERE IS A PIPELINE PROBLEM.

Steve says MEANING.

Saadia says MEANING THERE AREN'T ENOUGH
WOMEN ENTERING TECH AND THEY
WON'T TAKE COMPUTER SCIENCES,
THEY ARE NOT CODING.
I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE
PROBLEM.
IF YOU HAVE A SECTOR THAT'S
LUCRATIVE, THAT'S A GOOD CHOICE
IN TERMS OF A CAREER, THERE IS
NO REASON WHY ANYBODY WOULD WANT
OUT OF IT, OTHER THAN THEY ARE
NOT WELCOME.

Steve says CAN I PUT THIS CHART
UP NOW?
THIS IS SORT OF AMPLIFIES ON
WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT
HERE.

As Steve reads, a chart appears onscreen.
THIS IS THE PURE RESEARCH
ORGANIZATION WHICH LOOKED AT
LEVELS OF ON LINE HARASSMENT FOR
MEN AND WOMEN, AND HERE WE GO
THE DARKER LINE, THE DARKER BAR
IS MALE AND THE LIGHTER ONE IS
FEMALE AND HOW ABOUT CALLED
OFFENSIVE NAMES, MORE MEN ARE
DOING IT THAN APPARENTLY WOMEN.
PURPOSEFULLY EMBARRASSED, MEN
LEAD AND PHYSICALLY THREATENED,
MORE MEN AND HARASSED FOR A
SUSTAINED PERIOD.
MORE MEN BUT LOOK AT THESE LAST
TWO.
STALKED.
STALKED.
MORE FEMALES ARE ENCOUNTERING
THIS THAN MALES AND SEXUALLY
HARASSED, MORE FEMALES ENCOUNTER
THAN MALES AND AS YOU LOOK AT
THOSE NUMBERS WHAT JUMPS OUT AT
YOU.

Jennifer says THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT WAYS
WAYS THE GENDERS
RESPOND.
I THINK THAT THE ACTIVITIES OF
HARASSMENT AND STALKING ARE A
LOT MORE PASSIVE
AND A LOT MORE INSIDIOUS BECAUSE
THEY ARE HARD TO DEAL WITH A
NAMELESS, FACELESS OPPONENT.
AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT CAN BE
REALLY TERRIFYING, ESPECIALLY
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE DOXING,
WHICH IS RELEASING PEOPLE'S
INFORMATION SO YOU CAN E-MAIL
THEM OR GO TO THEIR HOME OR TAKE
SOME OTHER ACTION WITH THAT
INFORMATION.

Steve says MAKING PUBLIC THEIR PRIVATE
INFORMATION IS WHAT YOU MEAN.

Jennifer says THAT'S RIGHT.
PUBLISHING IT ON SITES LIKE 4CHAN.

Steve says AND DOES IT GO WITHOUT SAYING
THAT ALL OF YOU AT SOME POINT IN
YOUR LIVES HAVE FACED THIS ON
LINE?

A female voice says YES.

Steve says YES, YOU ALL HAVE.

Alex says I HAVE NO ON LINE PRESENCE
WHATSOEVER SO NO BUT IN MY
LIFE.

Steve says ALEX YOU HAVE NO ON LINE
PRESENCE?

Alex smiles and says YES THAT'S TRUE.

Steve says WAIT YOU DON'T HAVE A FACEBOOK
PAGE?

Alex says I DO NOT.
I DIDN'T WANT TO SAY THAT
PUBLICLY TODAY BUT NO I DON'T.

Steve says YOU DON'T HAVE A TWITTER
ACCOUNT.

Alex says THIS IS HUMILIATING, NO.

Steve says YOU HAVE AN E-MAIL ADDRESS.

Alex nods and says I HAVE AN E-MAIL AND
BLACKBERRY.

Jamie says AND I CAN'T SAY I HAVE EITHER,
STEVE TO BE HONEST.
I HAVE A FACEBOOK BUT A LIMITED
ON LINE PROFILE.

Steve says AND YOU DO THAT ON PURPOSE?

Jamie nods and says I DO THAT -- YEAH, ON
PURPOSE.
I AM A PRIVATE PERSON AND I
HAVEN'T EXPANDED MY ON LINE
PRESENCE FOR THAT REASON,
OUTSIDE.

Steve says I'M INFERRING HERE IT'S NOT
THAT YOU DIDN'T GET AROUND TO IT
BUT YOU MADE THE DECISION NOT TO
DO THIS BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT
INTERESTED IN ALL THE CRAP THAT
COMES ASSOCIATED WITH THAT.

Jamie says AT THIS POINT IN TIME I DON'T
HAVE THE TIME TO INVEST IN
EVERYTHING THAT THAT ENTAILS, A
BROADER ON LINE PRESENCE.

Steve says SAADIA HOW ABOUT
YOU.

Saadia says I AM VERY INVOLVED ON LINE AND
IF I HAVE NOT PERSONALLY
EXPERIENCED IT FOR MYSELF, I
HAVE WITNESSED IN REALTIME, IN
TERMS OF WHAT THE COMMUNITY
ACTUALLY GOES THROUGH.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS TO
CONSIDER WHEN ANYBODY IS LOOKING
AT SOMETHING LIKE GAMER-GATE IS
SURE, THIS IS MUCH MORE
ADDRESSED TO PEOPLE WHO ARE
INVOLVED IN THESE COMMUNITIES,
BUT EVEN WOMEN WHO LEAVE TECH,
THE 53 PERCENT WHO DECIDE GO
ELSEWHERE, THIS ISN'T A SPLIT
SECOND DECISION THAT THEY WAKE UP
ONE DAY AND SAY I DON'T FEEL
LIKE BEING HERE, IT'S YEARS IN
THE MAKING.
IT'S DEATH BY A MILLION MICRO
AGGRESSIONS.
THAT HAPPENS EVERY DAY AND WE
DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT.
BECAUSE PERHAPS THERE ARE FAR
TOO MANY BUT WE NEED TO HAVE
THOSE MESSY CONVERSATIONS RIGHT
NOW BECAUSE IF WE JUST SAY THAT
WE'LL PUT IN POLICIES WHICH ARE
SUPER CRITICAL LIKE EQUAL PAY
AND MENTORSHIP AND SPONSORSHIP,
ALL OF THAT, REMEMBER, ALL
POLICIES ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE IMPLEMENTING
THEM.

Steve says ALEX, DO WE SAY SOMETHING AS
SIMPLE AS THIS WILL BE SOLVED
WHEN MEN BEHAVE BETTER.

Alex says IT WILL BE SOLVED WHEN LEADERS
TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT'S
GOING ON AND I ALWAYS SAY THIS
IS TRULY ABOUT ALL OF US MUCH
THE REASON WE FOCUS OUR
ATTENTION ON MEN IS BECAUSE THEY
ARE IN DECISION MAKING
LEADERSHIP ROLES
DISPROPORTIONATELY IN THE
SECTOR.
THE REASON I LOVE THE EVIDENCE
IS IT GIVES YOU SOMETHING
CONCRETE AND SO WE GRAVITATE TO
ANECDOTES BUT I ASKED SO AND SO
TO TAKE THE PROMOTION AND SHE
SAID NO.
ANECDOTE TALL CAN BE INFORMATIVE
BUT ONCE YOU HAVE A PATTERN YOU
HAVE HAVE THE CONVERSATION.
NOW WE HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE FOR
A CONVERSATION.

Jennifer says AND IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE
WORK PLACE.
FOR THE TWO OF YOU WHO
HAVE IN ANY EVENTUALLY MANAGED
YOUR ON LINE PRESENCE, IT BLEEDS
INTO EVERYTHING ELSE, RIGHT.
IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT WORK ANY
MORE.
AND WHEN YOU SEE INITIATIVES
LIKE WE FOR SHE, THAT EMMA
WATSON HAS RECENTLY BROUGHT UP,
SO THAT YOU HAVE MEN SUPPORTING
THIS AND THE WHITE RIBBON
CAMPAIGN WHERE I WAS CHAIR FOR A
NUMBER OF YEARS OR THE SAME
THING IS HAPPENING, WE DO NEED
BOTH GENDERS TO ADDRESS THIS.
IT WON'T BE SOLVED BY WOMEN
ALONE AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN BY
WHAT'S HAPPENED IN CANADA OVER
THE PAST WEEK IT'S HEARTENING TO
SEE THOSE RESPONSES.

Steve says THAT'S A VERY BLAND REFERENCE
TO SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN ON THE
FRONT PAGE FOR A WEEK NOW, EVERY
DAY FOR A WEEK NOW, SK THAT'S
BEEN HAPPENING -- SOMETHING
THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IN CANADA,
AND I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT.
AND WE HAVE A MINUTE TO GO
HERE.
WOMEN, CLEARLY, ARE HIP TO THIS
ISSUE AND THE PROBLEMS AROUND
IT.
ARE MEN IN YOUR SECTOR YET, HIP
TO THIS?

Jamie nods and says ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK WITH RESPECT TO
BLACKBERRY WE HAVE REALLY STRONG
REPRESENTATION.
WE HAVE 29 PERCENT OF OUR BOARD
MEMBERS ARE WOMEN AND BLACKBERRY
STARTED TO DO SOME CREATIVE
THINGS TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM.
AND MANY THANKS TO OUR
LEADERSHIP TEAM, WE HAVE TEN
WOMEN IN UNIVERSITIES RIGHT NOW
IN STEM PROGRAMS ON FULL
SCHOLARSHIP WITH BLACKBERRY,
FOUR YEAR PROGRAMS WHERE THEY
WILL GRADUATE FROM STEM FIELDS,
THEY ARE PAIRED WAY MENTOR, I
MENTOR ONE OF THE STUDENTS, THEY
GO TO HACKATHONS ON BEHALF OF
BLACKBERRY.

Steve says HACK-ATHONS?
WHAT'S THAT, WHAT'S A
HACK-ATHON?

Jennifer says YOU BRING A BUNCH OF PEOPLE
TOGETHER TO SOLVE A PROBLEM IN A
24-HOUR PERIOD AND THE WINNING
TEAM -- THE GROUP THAT CREATES
THE BEST SOLUTION.

Steve says OH SOUNDED
MUCH MORE NEFARIOUS.

The guests laugh as Jamie says WE WANT TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM
OF GETTING MORE WOMEN INTO THE
COMPANY AND MAKING SURE THEY
HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH A
SENIOR LEADER, SO THAT WE CAN
SLOWLY PULL THEM UP AND CHANGE
THE DEMOGRAPHICS AROUND THE
TABLE BECAUSE IT'S RECOGNIZED
THAT IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT
TO DO SO.

A caption reads The Gender (Tech) Divide. Theagenda.tvo.org.

Steve says AND SPEAKING OF
AROUND THE TABLE I WOULD LIKE TO
THANK THE FOUR WOMEN AROUND THIS
TABLE FOR JOINING US AT TVO
TONIGHT.
ALEX JOHNSTON AND JENNIFER EVANS
ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE OF THE
TABLE,
AND SAADIA MUZAFFAR AND JAIME
LEVERTON ON THE RIGHT HAND SIDE
OF THE TABLE.
GOOD OF YOU TO SHARE YOUR VIEWS
WITH US TONIGHT. THANK YOU.


Watch: The Gender Divide in Tech