Transcript: Elisabeth King: Teaching Intolerance in Rwanda | Apr 28, 2014

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray pinstripe suit, white shirt, and striped golden tie. Behind him, a wall screen reads “The Agenda, with Steve Paikin.”

Steve says IT'S BEEN 20 YEARS
SINCE THE START OF THE RWANDAN
GENOCIDE, AN EVENT THAT SAW
800,000 TUTSIS AND MODERATE
HUTUS KILLED OVER THE COURSE OF
THREE MONTHS IN THE AFRICAN
NATION.
SOME BELIEVE MUCH OF THE ETHNIC
CONFLICT CAN BE TRACED BACK TO
AN EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM THAT
ENFORCED DIVISIONS WITHIN THE
POPULATION.
JOINING US NOW TO TELL US MORE
ABOUT THIS THINKING AND WHAT
RWANDA'S EDUCATION SYSTEM SEES
20 YEARS LATER, ELISABETH KING,
AUTHOR OF “FROM CLASSROOMS TO
CONFLICT IN RWANDA.”
SHE'S ALSO A CONSULTANT FOR THE
CENTRE FOR INTERNATIONAL
GOVERNANCE INNOVATION'S AFRICA
INITIATIVE IN WATERLOO.

Elisabeth sits in the studio with Steve. She’s in her early thirties, with long straight blond hair. She’s wearing a gray blazer over a caramel sweater.
A picture of her book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a picture of a woman helping a little boy write the word “Rwanda” on a chalkboard, seen from behind.

Steve continues PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU HERE.
LET'S START FROM SCRATCH.
HOW DID YOU END UP RESEARCHING
RWANDA OF ALL PLACES?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Elisabeth King. Author ‘From classrooms to conflict in Rwanda.’ C.I.G.I."

Elisabeth says WELL I'M A POLITICAL
SCIENTIST.
I'M INTERESTED IN DEVELOPMENT
AMEND PEACE SOLVING.
I'M INTERESTED IN HOW THEORIES
AND HOPE WE HAVE TILELY PLAY
OUT FOR PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.
SO AS SOMEONE INTERESTED IN
THESE ISSUES, AS YOU JUST
NOTED, RWANDA IS PERHAPS THE
MOST EXTREME CASE OF INTERGROUP
CONFLICT WHERE WE KNOW
APPROXIMATELY 800,000 PEOPLE
WERE KILLED IN THE SPAN OF A
HYUNDAIS.
WE KNOW THIS IS A CONTEXT IN
WHICH EDUCATION IS VERY
POLITICAL.
BUT HASN'T BEEN REALLY THOUGHT
ABOUT.
ESPECIALLY IN THE WAY I TACKLE
IT IN THE BOOK.

The caption changes to "Teaching intolerance in Rwanda. Putting pen to paper."

Steve says YOU CHOSE TO DO YOUR
INTERVIEWS WITHOUT A
TRANSLATOR.
SO I WONDER HOW YOU DID THE
BOOK.

Elisabeth says SURE.
THE RAP DANES HAD BEEN STUDENTS
AND OR TEACHERS AT DIFFERENT
TYPES IN RWANDA'S HISTORY
BECAUSE THE RESEARCH STEMS BACK
FROM THE COLONIAL PERIOD TO
TODAY.
IT WAS TRICKY IN WHAT HAS
BECOME A POLITICAL CONTEXT TO
ASK A PEOPLE TO SHARE DIFFICULT
MEMORIES AND CONTRA GOVERNMENT
NARRATIVES.
SO I FOREGO A TRANSLATOR.
SO I CHOSE TO LUM NATE A LARGE
PART OF THE POPULATION.
AND CHOSE TO SPEAK TO PEOPLE
WHO SPOKE FRENCH AND SPOKE ONE
ON ONE.

Steve says YOU STILL THINK YOU
MANAGED TO GET A GOOD ENOUGH
CHUNK OF THE POPULATION TO MAKE
THIS RELEVANT.

Elisabeth says THIS IS A SAMPLE THAT I
TALKED TO PEOPLE FROM GROUPS
THAT MATTER.
THEY SELF IDENTIFIED AS HUTU,
TUTSI, DIFFERENT ECONOMIC
BACKGROUNDS, DIFFERENT PARTS OF
THE COUNTRY.
IT WAS A PRIVILEGE TO DO THAT.

Steve says LET'S BRING UP THE
MAP.
WE WANT TO REMIND EVERYBODY THE
PART OF THE WORLD WE ARE
TALKING ABOUT.

A map pops up on screen with the title “Recovering Rwanda.” It shows the location of Rwanda, just north of Burundi, south of Uganda, east of the Democratic Republic of the Congo and west of Tanzania.

Steve continues ONE OF THE MORE fascinating
STATISTICS IN YOUR BOOK IS
NEARLY 43 PER CENT OF RWANDA'S
POPULATION TODAY IS UNDER THE
AGE OF 14.
THIS IS A VERY, VERY YOUNG
COUNTRY.
BUT TAKE US BACK, BEFORE THIS
COUNTRY WAS COLONIZED, WHAT DID
IT LOOK LIKE?

Elisabeth says OF COURSE I WASN'T THERE BY
DID HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF
PRACTICING DOWN PEOPLE WHO WERE
COLONIAL MISSIONARIES.

Steve says THIS IS GOING BACK
FIFTY YEARS OR SO, RIGHT.

Elisabeth says RWANDA GAINED INDEPENDENCE
IN 1962.
SO SPEAKING TO PEOPLE ABOUT
WHAT THE COUNTRY LOOKED LIKE
THEN, IT LOOKED LIKE A VERY
DIFFERENT PLACE.
AND ESPECIALLY IN THE BOOK
TALKING ABOUT SCHOOLS, THAT WAS
JUST THE TIME WHEN THE FORMAL
EDUCATION SYSTEM WAS FOR THE
FIRST TIME BEING SET UP.

The caption changes to "From colonization to genocide."

Steve says AND WE OF COURSE KNOW
ABOUT HUTUS VERSUS TUTSIS
BAUTISTA IS THERE A THIRD
GROUP.

Elisabeth says YES, THERE IS A THIRD
GROUP, TWA.
ACCORDING TO INTERNATIONAL
WISDOM HUTU ACCOUNT FOR 55 PER
CENT OF THE POPULATION.
TWA IS JUST UNDER ONE PER CENT
OF THE POPULATION.
THEY ARE NOT A GROUP UPON WHICH
I FOCUSED IN THE GROUP BECAUSE
THEY ARE A GROUP THAT HAVE
ALWAYS BEEN LARGELY LOOKED DOWN
FON AND EXCLUDED FROM POLITICS
AND THEY DIDN'T PLAY TO THE
BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE AN
IMPORTANT ROLE IN THE GENOCIDE.

Steve says OKAY.
ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT
QUESTIONS TO ANSWER, I THINK,
HAS OPINION OVER THE LAST 20
YEARS, WHAT RESPONSIBILITY, IF
ANY, DID THE COLONIZERS PLAY 20
YEARS AGO.
WERE YOU ABLE TO GET A CLEAR
ANSWER ON THAT?

Elisabeth says THIS IS SUCH A TRICKY
QUESTION.
IT'S PART OF THE CURRENT
GOVERNMENT'S NARRATIVE TO SAY
THAT IN THE PRECOLONIAL PERIOD
RWANDA WAS A GOLDEN AGE WHEN
HUTU, TUTSI AND TWA DIDN'T
MATTER.

Steve says IS THAT TRUE.

Elisabeth says WE KNOW THAT CONSISTENT WITH
THE RECORD, WHAT IS SAID THAT
IS BELGIUM AS THE COLONIAL
POWER HELPED CRYSTALIZE ETHNIC
GROUPS THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN
THERE BUT HAD FOR MALL -- FOR
MALLIZED THEM AND PRIORITIZED
TUTSI IN TERMS OF SCHOOL AND STATE.

Steve says DO YOU AGREE THAT IS
AN ACCURATE CONCLUSION.

Elisabeth says CERTAINLY.

Elisabeth says THERE'S ALWAYS NUANCE TO THE
STORY.
I THINK FOR INSTANCE THOSE THAT
WOULD PUT A HUGE ROLE ON THE
FACT THAT BELGIUM SOUGHT
IDENTITY CARD IN 1923 AND WE
SAW THOSE IDENTITY CARDS COME
BACK IN THE RWANDAN GENOCIDE,
WE HAVE TO LOOK TO THE ROLE
THAT BELGIUM PLAYS BUT WE ALSO
HAVE TO LOOK TO THE ROLE THAT
RWANDANS PLAYED IN CONSTRUCTING
THEIR OWN COUNTRY AND
INTERGROUP.
THIS IS A HUGE TRANSITION,
PIVOTAL MOMENT WHERE TUTSI, WHO
HAD BEEN FAVOURED BY THE
COLONIAL POWER WERE THEN TAKEN
THEIR PLACE BY HUTU WHO CALM TO
POWER.
THE FIRST AND SECOND PRESIDENT
OF RWANDA WERE HUTU AND POWER
REALLY REVERSED IN WHO HAD
ENTITLEMENT TO STATE AND.

A slate pops up with the question “How do you teach genocide?” The slate also shows the Twitter logo and the hashtag AgendaTVO.

Steve says I WANT TO READ A
SHORT EXCEPT FROM YOUR BOOK NOW.
YOU DID AN INTERVIEW WITH A
TUTSI WOMAN NOW.
HERE'S THE QUOTE....

A quote appears on screen, under the title “Ingrained conflict.” The quote reads “When we arrived at school, they said Hutu stand up, Tutsi stand up. And Hutu didn’t really have any problems. But the Tutsi hat problems in relation to Hutu. And they would tell us in class, when they knew that you were Tutsi, that you didn’t have the right to speak. After making the list of Hutu and Tutsi, they would call the Hutu to the front and they would take the seats in front, and us Tutsi, we had to sit at the back...”
Quote by Elisabeth King, ‘From classrooms to conflict in Rwanda,’ 2014.

Steve continues OKAY, THIS IS -- WELL, LET ME
ASK YOU THE OPEN ENDED
QUESTION.
WHAT DID YOU INFER FROM THAT.

Elisabeth says WELL IN LOOKING AT EDUCATION
WE USUALLY THINK ABOUT
EDUCATION BY WHICH I MEAN
FORMAL SCHOOL AS CONTRIBUTING
TO PEACE.
WIDESPREAD BELIEF IS IT'S A
LACK OF EDUCATION THAT
CONTRIBUTES TO CONFLICT.
WHAT I WANTED TO DO IN THIS
BOOK IS FLIP THIS ON ITS HEAD
AND LOOK AT WAYS IN WHICH
SCHOOLING ITSELF MIGHT
CONTRIBUTE TO UNDERLYING
CONFLICT.

Steve says IT REDEFINED.

Elisabeth says THOSE WHO HAD ACCESSION IN
HOW SCHOOL WAS SET UP AND THEN
THE CONTENT, HISTORY, PEDAGOGY
AND CLASSROOM PRACTICE.
IT WAS A COMMON PRACTICE TO ASK
THEM TO STAND UP AND SELF
IDENTIFY BY ETHNIC IN CLASS.

Steve says IS IT FAIR TO SAY
THIS CONTRIBUTED TO OR LAID THE
GROUND WORK FOR THE GENOCIDE TO COME?

Elisabeth says I WOULD SAY, AND I WOULD
CAUTION US, THAT EDUCATION IS
NOT A SMOKING GUN HERE.
IT'S NOT THE APPROXIMATE CAUSE
BUT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF
ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT EDUCATION
AS A BUILDER FOR PEACE, YES, I
WOULD SAY A NUMBER OF THE
PRACTICES THAT WE KNOW HELPED
UNDERLIE CONFLICT IN RWANDA,
COLLECTIVE EYEING GROUPS,
STIGMATIZING GROUPS, IN
EQUALITIES BETWEEN GROUPS, ONE
OF OF THE PLACES WHERE THOSE
UNDERLYING FACTORS DEVELOPED
WAS RWANDA'S SCHOOL.

Steve says ALL THE WAY.
AND POST SECONDARY AS WELL.

Elisabeth says I SPECIFICALLY FOCUSED ON
PRIMARY EDUCATION.
THAT IS THE LEVEL OF EDUCATION
TO WHICH MOST HAVE ACCESS.
AND SECONDARY EDUCATION.

Steve says AND PRESUMABLY ONCE
THOSE STEREO TYPES AND VALUES
ARE ENGRAINED AT THAT AGE THEY
ARE THERE.
IT'S PRETTY HARD TO GET RID OF THEM?

Elisabeth says THAT'S CERTAINLY AN ARGUMENT
TO BE MADE THAT YOUTH ARE
IMPRESSIONABLE AND WE DEVELOP
RACE IMPRESSIONS IN CHILDHOOD
SO TIESSEN ENDURING TO THINK
ABOUT WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT.

Steve says RIGHT.
SO THOSE CLEAVAGES HAVING BEEN
PUT IN PLACE IT MIGHT NOT HAVE
TAKEN AS BIG A SPARK TO LIGHT
THE BOMB.

Elisabeth says AND school IS ONE PLACE.
THERE'S LOTS OF OTHER PLACES.
I LOOK AT SCHOOLING AS
REFLECTOR BUT ALSO AS AN
AMPLIFIER.

Steve says REFLECTOR AND
AMPLIFIER.
GOOD.
I'M GOING TO SET UP ANOTHER
QUOTE FROM YOUR BOOK HERE.
BECAUSE DURING THE GENOCIDE
PERPETRATORS MURDERED NEARLY
75 percent OF RWANDA'S RESIDENT TUTSI
POPULATION ALONG WITH TENS OF
THOUSANDS OF MODERATE.
75 percent of the TEACHERS WERE KILLED OR FLED
THE COUNTRY ON GENOCIDE CHARGES.
SCHOOLS WERE CLOSED COMPLETELY.

A quote appears on screen, under the title “An adverse reaction.” The quote reads “The logic of the Kagame regime seems to go as follows: tell them to reconcile and the population will do so. Teach them a new history and they will embrace it. Notify them that Hutu, Tutsi, and Twa no longer exist and it will be so. While on the surface, ordinary Rwandans may appear to embrace these initiatives, my interviews revealed deep disagreement.”
Quote by Elisabeth King.

Steve continues LET'S PICK THAT APART A BIT.

Elisabeth says IN THE AFTER MATH OF
GENOCIDE THE GOVERNMENT IN
POWER RIGHT NOW, THE RWANDAN
PATRIOTIC FRONT IS A GROUP OF
MOSLEY TUTSI WHO HAD BEEN IN
EXILE IN UGANDA SINCE 1959.
SO IT'S A SMALL MINORITY THAT
CONTROLS THE GOVERNMENT.
IT MAKES SENSE.
BOTH FROM A POLITICAL
PERSPECTIVE AND FROM A
RECONCILIATION PERSPECTIVE
MOTTO FOCUS ON ETHNICITY AND TO
FOCUS ON THIS WE ARE ALL
RWANDAN WHICH IS THE STRATEGY
THE GOVERNMENT HAS EMBRACED.
OSTENSIBLY OR REC SILL YAG
PURPOSES BUT ALSO PROBABLY FOR
POLITICAL REASONS.

The caption changes to "The dust settles."

Steve says WHAT DID YOUR
INTERVIEWS REVEAL ABOUT THAT
STRATEGY.

Elisabeth says I REMEMBER ONE INTERVIEWEE
IN PARTICULAR WHO STRUCK ME,
SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT, WE GO
IN THE STREET AND SMILE AND
WAVE HELLO HELLO NOT DARING TO
REVEAL OUR TRUE OPINION.
I THINK THAT INTERVIEW IS MORE
EMBLEM ATTIC OF WHAT IS GOING
ON MORE BROADPLY IN THE
COUNTRY.
THERE IS IMPORTANT PROGRESS BUT
THERE'S A HUGE BUT THE.
DOT, DOT, DOT.

Steve says BECAUSE THE TRUE
OPINION THEY WANT TO REVEAL IS
WHAT THERE ARE MANY PERSPECTIVE
S TODAY.
THERE EATS A LOT TODAY CALLED A
DIVISIONISM LAW AND IT'S MEANT
TO ERADICATE GENOCIDE.
YOU CAN GET THROWN IN JAIL FOR
GENOCIDE IDEOLOGY.

Steve says WHAT IS GENOCIDE
IDEOLOGY.

Elisabeth says THIS IS A QUESTION YOU HAVE
TO GO TO RWANDAN SENATE WHO
ISSUED A REPORT ON IT IN 206.
BUT THERE'S A HOST.
WE WOULD THINK OF IT AS
DISAGREEMENT.

Steve says OKAY.
THE FACT THAT YOU WEREN'T OF
THE COUNTRY, THAT HELP YOU OR
HURT YOU MORE IN YOUR VIEW TO
GET THE INFORMATION YOU WANTED
TO GET?

Elisabeth says THAT'S AN INTERESTING
QUESTION.
I THINK I HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF
GOING AND SPEAKING WITH PEOPLE
AND THE FACT THAT I WAS AN
OUTSIDER I THINK OFTEN HELPED
IN TERMS OF ALLOWING PEOPLE OF
DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS,
DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS TO
EXPRESS THEMSELVES TO ME IN A
WAY THEY MAY NOT HAVE BEEN
TABLE TO TO ANOTHER RWANDAN, AS
TO THEIR HISTORY.

Steve says JUST LOOKING AT YOU
THEY KNOW YOU ARE NOT PART OF
THIS.

Elisabeth says THAT'S RIGHT.
I ALSO TRIED TO WORK AS A
RESEARCH STRATEGY SOMETHING
CALLED SNOWBALL STRATEGIZING, I
MET WITH PEOPLE IN TORONTO WHO
WERE AIL TO INTRODUCE ME TO
PEOPLE THEY KNEW IN RWANDA AND
SO TO VOUCH FOR MY INTEGRITY
FOR THE FIRST STEP.
I'M TIME I HAD A MEETING I
WOULD ASK THEM TO INTRODUCE ME
TO SOMEONE ELSE WHO MAY HAVE A
SIMILAR OPINION TO THEM OR A
DIFFERENT OPINION TO THEM.
THAT MODICUM OF TRUST AT THE
BEGINNING I THINK ULTIMATELY
HELPED PLEA IN SPEAKING WITH
PEOPLE.

Steve says YOU KNOW, 20 YEARS IS
NOT THAT LONG A PERIOD OF TIME
IN THE BROAD SWATH OF HISTORY.
SO HOW ARE THEY -- PRESUMABLY A
LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE TEACHING
THIS STUFF TODAY, WHATEVER THEY
ARE TEACHING, YOU KNOW, THEY
WERE THERE THEN.
HOW ARE THEY TEACHING THIS TIME
OF THE HISTORY TODAY.

Elisabeth says IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTER MATH
OF THE RWANDAN GENOCIDE THE
GOVERNMENT PLACED A MORATORIUM
ON HISTORY TEACHING.
SO THERE'S A PERIOD OF TIME NO
HISTORY WAS TAUGHT IN THE
COUNTRY.
IT BEGAN TO BE REINTRODUCED IN
THE MID 2000s.
AT LEAST FOR THE GOVERNMENT.
THE NARRATIVE OF THE GENOCIDE
AND THE CIVIL WAR IS ONE THAT
FOCUSES, IF I CAN SIMPLIFY FOR
THE PURPOSES OF OUR DISCUSSION,
TUTSI VICTIMS AND HUTU
PERPETRATORS AND SIMPLIFIES
THINGS THAT WAY EXCLUDING FROM
THE NARRATIVE A HUGE PART OF
THE POPULATION WHO ALSO HAD
IMPORTANT LOSSES NOT ONLY IN
GENOCIDE BUT AFTER THE
GENOCIDE.
TEACHERS ARE RELUCTANT TO
TACKLE THE THORNY ISSUES WHERE
THEY HAVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
ON WITHIN SIDE OR THE OTHER AND
KNOW THAT THE POLITICAL CONTEXT
IN WHICH THEY ARE TEACHING IS A
REALLY TRICKTY COUNTRY.

Steve says SO ELISABETH, IN
RWANDA TODAY, TO BE A TUTSI IS
TO BE SEEN AS WHAT.

Elisabeth says A SURVIVOR.

Steve says TO BE A HUTU.

Elisabeth says OFTEN TYPES A PERPETRATOR,
OR AS ONE PERSON DESCRIBED TO
ME, THOSE THAT ARE NOT LIKED IN RWANDA.

Steve says THOSE THAT ARE NOT LIKED.
TO YOU SEE ANY EVIDENCE THAT
PRESUMABLY OVER TIME THESE
THINGS MAY CHANGE?
DO YOU SEE ANY EVIDENCE THAT IT
IS CURRENTLY CHANGING.

Elisabeth says IT HAS MADE REMARKABLE
PROGRESS SINCE THE GENOCIDE.
THERE'S BEEN NO LARGE TERM
RETURN TO VIOLENCE.
ECONOMICALLY THE CUP IS GROWING
SEVEN OR EIGHT PER CENT A YEAR
BUT JUSTICE IS BEING
IMPLEMENTED IN A VERY ONE
SAIDED WAY AND REC SULLATION IS
TOP TOWN FROM MAYAN AL SAYS.
WHILE YOU CAN COERCING IS LIKE
A CEASE FIRE I DON'T THINK YOU
CAN COERCE JUSTICE.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU MEAN.

Elisabeth says THERE'S BEEN AN EXTENSIVE
JUSTICE PROCESS IN RWANDA WHICH
MANY HAVE PRAISED.
IT'S A PRACTICAL SOLUTION TO
THE FACT THAT THERE WERE OVER
130,000 PERPETRATORS IN JAIL IN
THE YEARS AFT THE GENOCIDE.
BUT CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE
CURRENT GOVERNMENT ARE EXCLUDED
ENTIRELY FROM THAT JUSTICE
PROCESS.

The caption changes to "Mending wounds."

Steve says IF YOU WERE A BETTING
PERSON WOULD YOU BET ON
RWANDA'S FUTURE.

Elisabeth says I WANT TO BET ON RWANDA'S
FUTURE.
I MET SO MANY WONDERFUL PEOPLE
AND YOU HAVE NOTHING BUT HOPE
TO THEM.
BUT I THINK WE DO A CONTINUED
DISSERVICE TO RWANDANS IF WE
PRETEND THAT THERE AREN'T
IMPORTANT STEPS STILL TO BE
TAKEN FOR RWANDA TO SECURE A
DUR AND PIECE.

Steve says LIKE WHAT?

Elisabeth says ONE WOULD CERTAINLY BE
OPENING UP POLITICAL SPACE.
IT'S AN IMPORTANT CHALLENGE
THAT AN IMPORTANT SEGMENT OF
THE POPULATION FEELS THEY ARE
BEING EXCLUDED FROM MEMORY.
AND THAT'S A REALLY DIFFICULT
FOUNDATION ON WHICH TO BUILD
RECONCILIATION.

Steve says I MEAN, I GUESS ONE
OF OF THE -- LET'S LEAVE IT HERE.
DOES RWANDA TODAY LOOK LIKE
RWANDA TWO YEARS BEFORE THE
GENOCIDE OR TWO CAREERS AFTER
THE GENOCIDE?

Elisabeth says THIS IS SUCH A TRICKY
QUESTION.
THE BOOK FOLLOWS THREE PERIODS
IN RAN AT A'S HISTORY.
AND AS MUCH AS AT THESE
CRITICAL JUNCTURES WHERE A LOT
CHANGES YOU ALSO SEE A THREAD
THAT SO MUCH IS THE SAME IN THE
COUNTRY.
PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN ON THE
GROUND MUCH MORE RECENTLY IN
RWANDA THAN I, WOULD SAY RWANDA
TODAY LOOKS A LOT LIKE RWANDA A
COUPLE YEARS BEFORE THE
GENOCIDE.
AND RWANDANS WITH WHOM I'M IN
TOUCH ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE
YEAR 2017.
THAT'S THE YEAR THE PRESIDENT
IS TO STEP DOWN AFTER HAVING
SERVED TWO TERMS.
THEY ARE WORRIED WHAT HAPPENS
IF HE DOES STEP DOWN BECAUSE HE
HAS KEPT THE COUNTRY UNDER
TIGHT CONTROL AND THEY ARE
WORRIED WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF HE
DOESN'T MEAN ANXIETY HE WOULD
UNILATERALLY CHANGE THE
CONSTITUTION.

Steve says SO THE WORLD HOLDS
ITS BREATH FOR 2017.
AND I HOPE THE SCHOOLS AND
YOUTH MIGHT BE PART OF THE
SOLUTION AS MUCH AS IT HAS BEEN
PART OF THE PROBLEM IN THE
PAST.

The caption changes to "Theagenda.tvo.org"

Steve says GOTTCHA.
IT'S A FASCINATING READ.
FROM CLASSROOMS TO CONFLICT IN
RWANDA.
SO GOOD OF YOU TO COME TO THE
STUDIO.

Elisabeth says THANK YOU, IT’S MY PLEASURE.

Watch: Elisabeth King: Teaching Intolerance in Rwanda