Transcript: Andreas Harsono: Indonesia Divided | Apr 15, 2014

Steve sits in the studio. He’s a man in his fifties with dark brown, slightly curly hair in a neat cut. He wears a dark suit, a white shirt and striped golden tie. Behind him, a wall screen reads ‘The Agenda, with Steve Paikin.’

Steve says FORMER U.S. SECRETARY
OF STATE HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON
SAID IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHETHER
ISLAM, DEMOCRACY, MODERNITY AND
WOMEN'S RIGHTS CAN COEXIST GO TO
INDONESIA. BUT THAT NATION HAS
RECENTLY WITNESSED FREQUENT
VIOLENT ATTACKS AGAINST SOME OF
THE COUNTRY’S RELIGIOUS MINORITIES.
IS INDONESIA NOT THE PLURALISTIC
PARADISE IT ONCE WAS? JOINING US WITH
HIS VIEW ANDREAS HARSONO. HE’S A
RESEARCHER WITH HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH
AND WE WELCOME YOU TO ONTARIO AND
TO OUR STUDIO.

Andreas is a man in his fifties. He has short grey hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a dark brown shirt and glasses.

Steve continues THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
LET'S JUST REMIND EVERYBODY THE
NATURE OF INDONESIA AS IT BREAKS
DOWN BY RELIGION.
I WILL ASK THE CONTROL ROOM TO
BRING THESE NUMBERS UP.
IN INDONESIA, ALMOST 90 PERCENT OF THE
POPULATION FOLLOWS ISLAM.
CHRISTIANS MAKE UP ALMOST 10 PERCENT.
HINDU ALMOST 3 PERCENT.
BUDDHIST, LESS THAN 1 PERCENT.
AND OTHERS ABOUT A HALF A PERCENT.

A slate on screen details the actual numbers. It reads ‘Religious breakdown. Muslim 87.18 percent; Christian 9.87 percent; Hindu 2.69 percent; Buddhist 0.72 percent; Others 0.56 percent.’
Quoted from Statistics Indonesia, May 2010.

Steve continues NOW, IN THIS COUNTRY,
ANDREAS,
OF 250 MILLION PEOPLE, HOW MANY
RELIGIONS IN TOTAL ARE THERE?

A caption reads ‘Andreas Harsono. Human Rights Watch.’ Then it changes to ‘Indonesia divided. Varying faiths.’

Andreas says ACCORDING TO THE
GOVERNMENT DATA, THERE ARE MORE
THAN 400 RELIGIONS.

Steve says 400.
SO THESE ARE THE MAIN ONES BUT
THERE ARE PLENTY MORE.

Andreas continues BECAUSE OF THE
BLASPHEMY LAW.
ONLY SIX ARE OFFICIALLY
RECOGNIZED.

Steve says HOW DID THEY GET TO BE
OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED AND THE
OTHER ONES NOT?

Andreas says THERE WAS THE
BLASPHEMY LAW.
THE NEXT QUESTION IS WHO DO YOU
PROTECT?
IF YOU CANNOT BLASPHEMOUS.
THE QUESTION IS THERE SHOULD BE
RELIGION TO BE PROTECTED AND
THOSE THAT SHOULD NOT AND THEY
CAME UP WITH THESE SIX.

Steve says IS ATHEISM RECOGNIZED?

Andreas continues LEGALLY, IT IS NOT
CLEAR.
BUT YOU CAN BE ACCUSED AS
COMMITTING BLASPHEMY IF YOU ARE
DECLARING YOURSELF AS AN
ATHEIST.

Steve says I SEE.
EVERYONE CARRIES AN IDENTITY
CARD AND YOUR RELIGION IS NOTED
ON THE CARD.

Andreas says YES.

Steve says IF IT'S ONE OF THE
MAJOR RELIGIONS.

Andreas says YES.

Steve says AND IF IT'S NOT?

Andreas says LEGALLY YOU CAN SAY
IT'S A BLANK.
FOR EXAMPLE I AM A BAHA'I.
I WANT THAT TO BE PRINTED ON MY
RELIGIOUS COLUMN OR JUDAISM.
BUT THEY SAY YOU CANNOT.

Steve says YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT ON
YOUR IDENTITY CARD.

Andreas says YOU CANNOT.

Steve continues BECAUSE IT'S NOT ONE
OF THE OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED
RELIGIONS. YOU THINK THAT’S UNFAIR?

Andreas says IT IS DISCRIMINATORY
AGAINST OTHER RELIGIONS
INCLUDING SHIA MUSLIM AND OTHER
TYPES OF MUSLIM.
IN CERTAIN PLACES IN INDONESIA
IF YOU ARE A SHIA YOU CANNOT PUT
ISLAM ON YOUR IDENTITY CARD
BECAUSE SHIA IS NOT CATEGORIZED
AS ISLAM.
BUT IF IT IS BLANK IT IS
DANGEROUS FOR VARIOUS REASONS.
SO THEY PUT CHRISTIAN ON THEIR
I.D. CARD.

Steve says SHIA MUSLIMS PUT
CHRISTIAN ON THE IDENTITY CARD.

Andreas continues WE HAVE EXAMPLES OF
WOMEN WEARING A HEADSCARF.
OBVIOUSLY MUSLIM.
BUT CHECK HER IDENTITY CARD,
CHRISTIAN.

Steve says WHY WOULD IT BE SO
DANGEROUS TO HAVE SOMETHING ELSE
ON THERE?

Andreas says WELL, BECAUSE THERE
IS A NARROW MINDEDNESS.
THERE IS A GROWING --

Steve says INTOLERANCE?

Andreas continues YES, DISCRIMINATION.
OVER THE LAST EIGHT YEARS IN
INDONESIA.
WE ALSO SEE HUNDREDS OF CASES OF
RELIGIOUS VIOLENCE AGAINST
RELIGIOUS MINORITIES.

Steve says ANDREAS, YOU HAVE HAD
AN INTERESTING RELIGIOUS JOURNEY
YOURSELF.
YOU ARE BAHAI NOW.
WHAT WERE YOU?

Andreas says I'M CHINESE.
I WAS BORN IN A CONFUCIANISM
FAMILY.
BUT THREE YEARS LATER IT WAS
BANNED.
IF YOU ARE DECLARING YOURSELF TO
BE CONFUCIAN YOU ARE COMMITTING
BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE
GOVERNMENT.

Steve says YOU CHANGED TO WHAT?

Andreas continues MY PARENTS BECAME
CHRISTIAN.
MY MOTHER WAS A NEWBORN
CHRISTIAN.
BUT THEY SENT ME TO CATHOLIC
SCHOOL SO I BECAME CATHOLIC.
I WAS BAPTIZED AS CATHOLIC.
THEN I MARRIED -- MY WIFE IS A
MUSLIM.
I MARRIED A MUSLIM LADY.
AND I BECAME A MUSLIM.

Steve says SUNI?

Andreas says SHE IS A TYPE OF
MUSLIM.

Steve says HOW DID YOU GO FROM
MUSLIM TO BAHAI?

Andreas says I'M NOT PRACTICING
NOW.

Steve says OKAY.
THAT'S QUITE A JOURNEY.
FOUR DIFFERENT RELIGIONS OVER
THE COURSE OF A LIFETIME.

Andreas says OH, YEAH.
IN SOME COUNTRIES YOU WOULD BE
BEHEADED FOR THAT.

Steve says HAVE YOU FOUND
YOURSELF THAT YOU HAVE BEEN
DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BECAUSE OF
YOUR RELIGIOUS CHANGES?

Andreas says WELL, AT THE SAME
TIME, I'M KNOWN AS SOMEONE WHO
DEFENDS RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS.
SO PEOPLE KNOW THAT I KNOW THIS
BUSINESS SO I'M OKAY.

Steve says YOU'VE HAD ACTUALLY
OTHER TROUBLES BESIDES RELIGION.
WHAT WAS YOUR NAME WHEN YOU WERE
BORN?

Andreas says MY NAME WAS ONG CHI
YOUNG.

Steve inquires CHINESE NAME.

Andreas replies CHINESE NAME.

Steve says WHY DON'T YOU USE THAT
NAME TODAY?

Andreas says AFTER GENERAL
SUHARTO CAME TO POWER CHINESE
CHARACTERS WERE BANNED.
EVERYTHING CHINESE WAS BANNED.
MOVIE NAMES WE HAD TO CHANGE OUR
NAME.

Steve says YOU CHANGED IT TO
ANDREAS?

Andreas continues THE VILLAGE OFFICIAL
TOLD MY FATHER THAT HE SHOULD
CHANGE THE FAMILY NAME INTO
ANDREAS HARSONO.
AND MY MOTHER BECAME A
CHRISTIAN.
SHE GAVE ME THE FIRST NAME OF
ANDREAS.

Steve says SO YOU HAVE NEITHER
THE SAME NAME NOR THE SAME
RELIGION THAT YOU WERE BORN
WITH.

Andreas says I THINK SO.

Steve continues DOES THAT BOTHER YOU?

Andreas says WELL, IF THEY TAKE
YOUR IDENTITY YOU HAVE TO DEAL
WITH THAT.
YOU HAVE TO FACE THAT.
IT IS SOMETHING -- SOMETHING --
I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE.
A LOT OF PEOPLE -- MILLIONS OF
PEOPLE SUFFERED THIS KIND OF
THING.

Steve says YOUR ORGANIZATION,
HUMAN RIGHTS, DID A VIDEO ABOUT
SOME OF THE PROBLEMS THAT ARE
GOING ON IN INDONESIA RIGHT NOW.
I'D LIKE TO PLAY A SHORT SNIPPET
OF THAT AND THEN WE'LL COME BACK
AND CHAT.
ROLL TAPE, PLEASE.

Fast clips feature people protesting and holding flags by a stage with leaders that talk to them using amplifiers. Most of them wearing white costumes and hats. A caption reads ‘Behead blasphemers of Islam.’

A new clip features Phelim Kine. Deputy Asia Director. Human Rights Watch. He’s a man in his late forties. He has curly short hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a dark suit, a white shirt, and a light blue tie.

Phelim says HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH
RESEARCH
INDONESIA SHOWS A VERY WORRYING
UP TICK IN RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE
WHICH IS BEING EXPRESSED IN ACTS
OF INTIMIDATION, HARASSMENT,
THREATS AND DEADLY VIOLENCE.

New images of people throwing stones at a house and a car burning up in flames with a link to find it on YouTube as ‘2013 Human Rights Watch.’

Phelim continues THESE INCIDENTS ARE
OCCURRING
WITH ALARMING FREQUENCY ON A
WEEKLY BASIS.
SOMETIMES EVEN ON A DAILY BASIS.

A clip features a woman in her forties. She wears a purple hijab and a yellow scarf. A caption reads ‘Aliyah. Nangkernang. Madura Island.’

Aliyah says THEY TALK ABOUT
ELIMINATING THE SHIA, UNTIL
WE’RE ALL GONE. NOT ONLY
THE OLD, BUT ALSO THE BABIES.
THEY SAID THEY WANT TO GET
RID OF THE BABIES. SO SHIISM
WON’T BE CONTAGIOUS.

Steve says WHY DO YOU THINK THIS
IS HAPPENING NOW?

Andreas says BECAUSE THERE IS A
BELIEF AMONG INDONESIAN ELITE
THAT RATHER THAN PROMOTING
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, THEY BELIEVE
THAT IT SHOULD BE RELIGIOUS
HARMONY.

A new caption reads ‘Indonesia divided. Religious repression.’

Andreas continues AND BECAUSE OF
THEIR BELIEF,
THEIR CONVICTIONS, THEY
INTRODUCE A NUMBER OF NEW
REGULATIONS.
THE FIRST ONE WAS THE HOUSE OF
WORSHIP BUILDING PERMIT
REGULATIONS IN 2006.
THEY ALSO INTRODUCED A NUMBER OF
REGULATIONS WHERE THEY'LL SEND
ANYONE WHO PRACTICES THE AHMADIA
FAITH OR SHIA FAITH TO --

Steve says ARE THEY THE TWO
RELIGIONS THAT ARE THE MOST
DISCRIMINATED AGAINST?

Andreas continues YES, SHIA AND
AHMADIA.
WE ALSO HAVE THE SUFFI.
BUT BECAUSE THE NUMBERS ARE
SMALL NOT AS MUCH AS AHMADIA AND
SHIA BUT THE CHRISTIANS ARE
MOSTLY DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.

Steve says HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT
FOR HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH TO GET
THAT VIDEO OUT OF THE COUNTRY TO
THE REST OF THE WORLD?

Andreas says WELL, THE VIDEO WAS
TAKEN BY AN AHMADI MAN.
BUT HE WAS AFRAID TO BROADCAST
IT.
SO HE ASKED HUMAN RIGHTS FOR
SOME ADVICE WHAT TO DO.
WE ADVISED HIM TO GIVE IT TO AN
INDONESIAN T.V. STATION BUT THE
T.V. STATION REFUSED TO AIR IT
SO WE GAVE IT TO INTERNATIONAL
T.V.s, ASSOCIATED PRESS, NBC,
AND THEY DID BROADCAST THE
VIDEO.
THE QUESTION IS: HOW IS IT
BROADCAST INTERNALLY TO A
DOMESTIC INDONESIAN AUDIENCE?
AND I THINK THAT'S UNUSUAL.

Steve says SO IT HAS NOT ACTUALLY
PLAYED ON INDONESIAN TELEVISION.
IT'S ONLY BEEN ON YOUTUBE.

Andreas says YES.

Steve continues YOU DON'T
REALLY KNOW
IF ANYONE HAS SEEN IT IN
INDONESIA?

Andreas says THEY HAVE SEEN SOME
PART OF THE VIOLENCE BUT
INDONESIAN T.V. DOES PRACTICE
CENSORSHIP.
SO THIS IS QUITE A CONCERN.
BECAUSE INDONESIAN DOMESTIC
ORGANS ARE SLOWER IN GETTING
REALIZING THAT THERE IS A BIG
PROBLEM CAUSED BY THE CURRENT
GOVERNMENT OVER RELIGIOUS
FREEDOM IN INDONESIA.

Steve says PEOPLE I GATHER KNOW
YOU ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THAT
VIDEO.

Andreas says YES.

Steve continues HAVE YOU HAD SECURITY
PROBLEMS AS A RESULT?

Andreas says OH, YES.
THEY THREATEN ME.
THEY SEND THREATENING MESSAGES.
E-MAIL, PHONE CALL.

Steve says LIKE WHAT?

Andreas continues OH, THEY SAY THEY'LL
KILL ME.
THEY SAY I'M AN ENEMY OF ISLAM.
THAT I AM TARNISHING THE GOOD
NAME OF ISLAM IN INDONESIA.
THOSE KIND OF STUFF.

Steve says DOES THAT WORRY YOU?

Andreas says OH, THEY THREATEN MY
CAR TIRES, FOUR TIRES AT THE
SAME TIME.
CALL MY SON, CALL MY WIFE.

Steve inquiries WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT
THAT?

Andreas says THINGS LIKE THIS IS
HAPPENING.
THIS IS OUR BUSINESS.
HUMAN RIGHTS IS NOT SOMETHING
NOT -- THIS KIND OF DIRTY STUFF
HAPPENS.
WE HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THINGS
CALM DOWN.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THIS
IS REALLY HAPPENING.
THIS IS NOT A FICTION.
WE HAVE THE NAMES OF THE
VICTIMS, THE HOSPITALS ARE
THERE.
THE MEDICAL RECORDS ARE THERE.
AND OF COURSE THERE IS A VIDEO.

Steve says YOU MENTION THE
PERPETRATORS.

Andreas says YES.

Steve continues WHO'S DOING THIS?

Andreas says MOST OF THEM ARE
SUNNI MILITANTS.
MOST OF THEM ARE ORGANIZED UNDER
ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE ISLAMIC
DEFENDERS FRONT.
AND MOST OF THEM ARE DIRECTLY OR
INDIRECTLY RELATED TO THE
INDONESIAN ULAMA COUNCIL.

Steve says ARE THERE SO-CALLED
TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS
OPERATING OUT OF INDONESIA THAT
ARE PART OF THIS?

Andreas says NO, THEY ARE NOT
TERRORISTS THEY ARE DOING
VIOLENCE AGAINST MINORITIES.
THE TERRORISTS ARE A DIFFERENT
MATTER.
THE COUNCIL ALSO DENOUNCES
TERRORISM.
SUICIDE BOMBERS, THAT KIND OF
STUFF.

Steve says YOU HEARD MY LINE OFF
THE TOP FROM HILLARY CLINTON.
YOU REMEMBER THAT LINE.

Andreas says YES.

Steve says IF YOU WANT TO SEE ALL
OF THESE WONDERFUL THINGS
COEXISTING PEACEFULLY COME TO
INDONESIA.

Andreas says I THINK HILLARY
REGRETS SAYING THAT.
IF SHE COMES TO JAKARTA TODAY
SHE WOULDN'T SEE WHAT SHE SAID
BACK IN 2007.

A slate presents a map that shows Indonesia in the center and the names of Philippines, Malaysia, Jakarta, Surabaya and the Indian Ocean.’ The top right corner has the Indonesian flag on it.

Steve says WHY DO YOU THINK THIS
HAS HAPPENED?

Andreas says WELL, BECAUSE PEOPLE
LIKE HILLARY CLINTON, BARACK
OBAMA, DAVID CAMERON, ANGELA
MERKEL, THEY LIKE TO DO
BUSINESS.
AND THEY WANT TO BE SEEN AS SOFT
ON INDONESIA.
THEY WANT TO DO THINGS BEHIND
THE SCENES.
AND THAT'S WHY THEY SAY
SOMETHING NICE WHICH IS
UNFORTUNATELY INACCURATE ABOUT
WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND.
BUT LATELY I LEARNED THAT THEY
DON'T DO IT ANYMORE.
ALTHOUGH KIND OF STILL TRYING TO
BE DIPLOMATIC, WHICH IS OBVIOUS.
BUT IT IS NOT HAPPENING.
A STATEMENT LIKE HILLARY CLINTON
IS NOT HAPPENING AGAIN.

Steve says LET'S JUST UNDERSTAND
A BIT OF THE HISTORY.
BECAUSE I THINK MANY PEOPLE
REMEMBER WHEN IT WAS SUHARNO AND
SUKARTO THE COUNTRY WAS A MESS.
AND THERE WERE TERRIBLE
KILLINGS.
AND INDONESIA WAS A TRAGIC PLACE
FOR A LONG TIME.
BUT THEN WE WERE TOLD THAT
INDONESIA HAD STRAIGHTENED
ITSELF OUT FOR A GOOD LONG TIME.

Andreas says MM-HMM.

Steve continues SO WHAT CHANGED?
WHY DID INDONESIA GO FROM A
PLACE THAT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS
GETTING ITS ACT TOGETHER TO A
PLACE WHERE THEY ARE PERSECUTING
RELIGIOUS MINORITIES ALL OF A
SUDDEN?

Andreas says WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT
AFTER THE FALL OF PRESIDENT
SUHARTO IN 1998, OF COURSE THERE
WERE OPENINGS.
POLITICAL SPACES OPENED.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME,
INSTITUTIONS ARE NOT
STRENGTHENED.
PEOPLE CAN VOTE FREELY BUT THERE
ARE NO PROTECTIONS FOR FREEDOM
OF SPEECH, FREEDOM OF RELIGION,
OF COURSE.
FREEDOM OF FAITH.
FREEDOM OF EXPRESSIONS.
AND THEN THIS IS A RULE OF THE
MAJORITY.
THE TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY.
POLITICIANS, OF COURSE, LIKE TO
TALK ABOUT RELIGIONS BECAUSE IT
IS THE EASIEST THING TO GET
VOTES OTHER THAN TALKING ABOUT
BUDGET, TALKING ABOUT VARIOUS
REGULATIONS, TALKING ABOUT
FOREIGN POLICY, DEFENCE, ETCETERA.
WHICH IS COMPLICATED.
BUT TALKING ABOUT RELIGION IS
EASY.

Steve says OKAY.
YOU MENTIONED GOVERNMENT THERE.
AND THAT LEADS US INTO THE NEXT
PART OF OUR DISCUSSION.
AND WE WANT TO GET INTO SOME
DISCUSSION ABOUT THAT.
BUT YOU'VE GOT A CLIP AGAIN FROM
YOUR DOCUMENTARY.
LET'S WATCH THAT FIRST AND THEN
WE'LL COME BACK AND CHAT.
ROLL TAPE, PLEASE.

Phelim says IN AUGUST 2012, THE SHIA
COMMUNITY IN SAMPUNG, EAST JAVA
WAS ATTACKED BY A GROUP OF
MILITANTS WHO BURNT DOWN MORE
THAN 50 HOUSES.

The clip features a photo and a video of the house being set on fire. Then it changes to a new photo portraying the state of the area after the fire and destruction.

Phelim continues ONE MAN WAS BURNT
TO DEATH AND
ANOTHER WAS SERIOUSLY INJURED AS
A RESULT OF THIS ATTACK.
THE LOCAL POLICE AND GOVERNMENT
OFFICIALS ON THE SCENE DID
NOTHING TO PREVENT THE VIOLENCE
WHICH ENSUED.
EVEN THOUGH THE LOCAL SHIA
COMMUNITY HAD WARNED THE POLICE,
HAD PLEADED FOR INTERVENTION.

Steve says WERE YOU SAYING YOU
WERE ARRESTED IN CONNECTION WITH
THAT VIDEO?

Andreas says I WAS THERE
INTERVIEWING SHIA VILLAGERS A
YEAR BEFORE THAT.
AND THE SUNNI MILITANTS WERE NOT
HAPPY WITH OUR PRESENCE.
THEY THREATENED TO, YOU KNOW, TO
ACT AGAINST US.
AND THE POLICE INTERVENED AND WE
WERE ARRESTED FOR THREE NIGHTS.

A caption reads ‘Indonesia divided. All eyes on the government.’

Steve says THREE NIGHTS IN JAIL?

Andreas says IN POLICE DETENTION.

Steve says HOW WERE YOU TREATED
IN DETENTION?

Andreas continues IT'S OKAY.
WE WERE ALL RELEASED -- TWO OF
US RELEASED BECAUSE, OF COURSE,
WE DID NOTHING WRONG.

Steve says RIGHT.
FREEDOM OF RELIGION IS
GUARANTEED UNDER THE
CONSTITUTION OF INDONESIA IS IT
NOT?

Andreas says HE WHY, THE
CONSTITUTION EXPLICITLY SAYS
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.
BUT THE GOVERNMENT INTRODUCED A
NEW CONCEPT -- IT IS CALLED
RELIGIOUS HARMONY.
IT MEANS THAT THE MAJORITY IS
GOING TO INTO CONSIDERATIONS.
AND IN 2006, THE GOVERNMENT SET
UP WHAT THEY CALL RELIGIOUS
HARMONY FORUM.
HUNDREDS OF THEM.
ALL OVER INDONESIA, EVERY
REGENCY, EVERY PROVINCE.
THE PURPOSE IS TO MAINTAIN MORE
OR LESS THE PERCENTAGE.
YOU TALK ABOUT THE PERCENTAGE IN
THE BEGINNING OF THE SHOW.
THAT IS THE MANTRA OF THE
GOVERNMENT.
ISLAM CERTAIN PERCENT.
KEEP IT THAT WAY.
HOUSE OF WORSHIP, SHOULD
REPRESENT MORE OR LESS THE
PERCENTAGE OF THE MUSLIM OR THE
CHRISTIAN.
AND THAT'S WHY MAKING A HOUSE OF
WORSHIP FOR THE MINORITY RIGHT
NOW IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.
THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF CHURCHES
BEING CLOSED DOWN OVER THE LAST
EIGHT YEARS.

Steve says WELL, WE'VE POINTED
OUT OFF THE TOP THERE ARE ABOUT
80 PERCENT OF INDONESIANS ARE MUSLIM.
DOES THAT MEAN 87 PERCENT OF THE
MOSQUES OR OF THE HOUSES OF
WORSHIP IN INDONESIA ARE
MOSQUES?

Andreas says ACCORDING TO THE
GOVERNMENT DATA, MOST ARE ONLY
78 PERCENT.
MEANWHILE, MUSLIM ARE 88 PERCENT
ACCORDING TO THE GOVERNMENT
DATA.

Steve says THEY WANT MORE
MOSQUES.

Andreas continues THEY SAID IT SHOULD
BE BOOSTED.
MEANWHILE, THE CHRISTIAN IS
ABOUT 10 PERCENT.
MEANWHILE, CHURCHES ARE ABOUT
19 PERCENT.
THERE ARE TOO MANY CHURCHES.

Steve says SO THEY ARE LITERALLY
GOING AROUND SHUTTING DOWN
CHURCHES.

Andreas continues THEY DON'T SHUT DOWN
CHURCHES.
BUT THEY MAKE IT DIFFICULT FOR
NEW CHURCHES TO BE ESTABLISHED.
AND, OF COURSE, THERE ARE
HUNDREDS OF CHURCHES THAT ARE
BEING CLOSED DOWN.
OF COURSE, IT IS RIDICULOUS.
BECAUSE CHRISTIANS HAVE
DIFFERENT DENOMINATIONS.
THE PRESBYTERIANS DO NOT PRAY IN
A CATHOLIC CHURCH AND VICE
VERSA.
INSIDE INDONESIA, CHURCHES ARE
ALSO DIVIDED IN ACCORDANCE TO
LANGUAGE GROUP, ETHNIC GROUPS.
IF I SPEAK PATANG, WHICH IS AN
ETHNIC GROUP I DO NOT PRAY IN A
JAVANESE SPEAKING CHURCH.
THIS IS LIKE GOING TO A FRENCH
CHUFF OR A THIRD LANGUAGE
CHURCH.

Steve says I SEE.
HOW MANY LANGUAGES DO YOU SPEAK?

Andreas says SEVEN.

Steve says SEVEN LANGUAGES,
ENGLISH AND WHAT ELSE?

Andreas says THE MOTHERS ARE
MOSTLY LOCAL DIALECTS IN
INDONESIA.

Steve says I SEE.
YOUR PRESIDENT, WHOSE NICKNAME I
GUESS IS ESPAYA.

Andreas says YES.

Steve continues HOW HAS HE REACTED TO
ALL OF THIS RELIGIOUS VIOLENCE?

Andreas says HE FOUND THAT THERE
SHOULD BE NO TOLERANCE AGAINST
VIOLENCE MADE IN THE NAME OF
RELIGION.
AND PRESIDENT OF IRAN EVEN
RAISED THE ISSUE OF VIOLENCE
AGAINST THE PRESIDENT.
AND HE SAID THAT BEFORE THE
ISLAMIC NEW YEAR LAST YEAR,
ANAHEIM THE DISPLACED LEADERS
WOULD BE RETURNED TO THEIR
VILLAGES BUT UNTIL NOW THEY ARE
STILL IN THEIR DISPLACEMENT
CAMP.
HE THOUGHT THAT HE DOES NOT
DELIVER WHAT HE TALK.
HE DOESN'T WALK WHAT HE TALKS.

Steve says I GATHER YOU'RE OVER
HERE IN CANADA BECAUSE YOU HAD
SOME MEETINGS WITH OUR
AMBASSADOR FOR RELIGIOUS
FREEDOM.

Andreas says THIS IS INTERESTING.

Steve continues HOW DID THE MEETINGS
GO?

A caption reads ‘Indonesia divided. A helping hand.’

Andreas says IT WAS A GREAT ONE.
I THINK HE KNOWS HIS BUSINESS.
HE IMPRESSED ME SO MUCH WITH HIS
UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE ISSUE.
HE IS GOING TO JAKARTA NEXT
MONTH.
AND HE KNOWS THAT THERE ARE
DISCRIMINATIONS AGAINST
CHRISTIAN, AHMADIYYA, SHIA, SUFFI
IN INDONESIA.
HE TOLD ME THAT INDONESIA IS A
TOP PRIORITY COUNTRY IN TERMS OF
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.

Steve says DO YOU THINK THAT HE
OR CANADA ARE ABLE TO ACTUALLY
AFFECT ANY POSITIVE CHANGE HERE?

Andreas says IT IS NOT EASY.
YOU KNOW, I KNOW THE BUDGET OF
THAT OFFICE IS ABOUT 2.5
MILLION -- CANADIAN DOLLARS.
I TOLD HIM THAT THE BUDGET OF
INDONESIAN MINISTRY OF RELIGIOUS
FREEDOM IS 8.8 BILLION.

Steve says BILLION.

Andreas says 8.8 BILLION.

Steve says THAT'S A BIT OF A
DAVID AND GOLIATH.

Andreas says YOU CAN DO A LOT OF
BIG THINGS WITH A SMALL BUDGET.
BUT I JUST WOULD LIKE TO PUT ON
THE TABLE THAT YOU'RE DEALING
WITH ONE AGENCY OF FOUR
AGENCIES -- GOVERNMENT AGENCIES
WHICH FACILITATE DISCRIMINATION
OF RELIGION AND ONE AGENCY ALONE
HAS 8 BILLION DOLLARS ON THEIR POCKET.

Steve says ANDREAS, WE'RE REALLY
GRATEFUL YOU CAME INTO TVO
TONIGHT AND SHARED SOME OF YOUR
HISTORY ON THIS SUBJECT WITH US.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

A caption reads ‘Indonesia divided. theagenda.tvo.org.’

Steve concludes THAT'S ANDREAS HARSONO.
INDONESIA RESEARCHER WITH HUMAN
RIGHTS WATCH.
THANK YOU.

Watch: Andreas Harsono: Indonesia Divided