Transcript: Peter Gzowski | Jan 25, 1983

(music plays)

The title “Realities” appears on screen as fast animated clips show colourful abstract drawings.

Then, Naomi Loeb appears sitting in a television studio. She’s in her late thirties, with short brown hair. She’s wearing a long-sleeved purple velvet dress and a long pearl necklace.

She says GOOD EVENING, I'M NAOMI LOEB.
TONIGHT, BOB FULFORD TALKS
WITH PETER GZOWSKI, WHO HAS
HAD A LONG AND VARIED CAREER
IN THE CANADIAN MEDIA.
HE'S A FORMER EDITOR OF
MACLEAN'S
MAGAZINE AND
THE STAR WEEKLY.
HE USED TO BE THE HOST OF A
DAILY CBC RADIO PROGRAM CALLED
THIS COUNTRY IN THE MORNING.
AND HE'S RECENTLY RETURNED
TO THAT SAME TIME SLOT,
ONLY NOW THE PROGRAM IS
CALLED
MORNINGSIDE.
HE'S AUTHOR OF A BOOK ON THE
EDMONTON OILERS, AND HE'S A
BIG FAN OF WAYNE GRETZKY.

A slate with the title “Realities” flashes by, and then Bob Fulford and Peter Gzowski appear in an office for the interview.
Bob is in his sixties, clean-shaven and balding. He’s wearing large glasses, a blue suit, white shirt, and striped blue tie.
Peter is in his late fifties, with side-parted gray hair and a boxed beard. He’s wearing glasses, a gray suit, gray sweater, white shirt, and gray tie.

Bob says YOU DID THAT CBC MORNING
SHOW WHEN IT WAS CALLED
THIS COUNTRY IN THE MORNING
FOR
THREE YEARS, AND NOW YOU'VE
BEEN DOING IT FOR HALF OF
THIS SEASON, AGAIN, UNDER THE
NAME
MORNINGSIDE.
HAVE YOU DEVELOPED A PRETTY
GOOD SENSE OF YOUR AUDIENCE?
DO YOU THINK YOU KNOW WHO
LISTENS, OR WHO DOESN'T?
THERE ARE AN AWFUL LOT OF
PEOPLE LISTENING, AND OF
COURSE, THIS YEAR YOU HAVE A
HIGHER RATING, A GOOD DEAL
HIGHER THAN THE PROGRAM
RATED LAST YEAR.
DO YOU KNOW WHO THEY ARE?

Peter says I THINK I DO.
I HAVE A VERY STRONG SENSE
FROM THE MAIL, WHICH IS
PERSONAL, INTIMATE, AND VERY,
VERY REAL AND ADDRESSES ME
VERY INFORMALLY.
ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS
I FOUND GOING FROM TELEVISION
BACK TO RADIO IS THAT RADIO
PEOPLE WRITE TO PETER,
AND ON TELEVISION, THEY
OFTEN WRITE TO Mr. GZOWSKI.
MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE ON RADIO
THEY CAN'T SPELL MY NAME,
BUT FROM THAT, I DO HAVE
A VERY STRONG SENSE.
AND FROM OTHER THINGS, TOO.
I'VE TRAVELLED AROUND.
I WENT AROUND THE COUNTRY WITH
THE BOOK I DID ABOUT THIS
COUNTRY IN THE MORNING, AND
THERE THROUGH, MET HUNDREDS OF
PEOPLE WHO WERE
STRONG LISTENERS.

Bob says WHO ARE THEY?
CAN YOU CHARACTERIZE THEM?
CAN YOU SAY WHO THEY ARE?

Peter says THEY'RE BRIGHT.
THEY'RE UNBELIEVABLY SMART.
THAT SOUNDS SO EASY TO SAY,
BUT I SOMETIMES, I MEAN,
I GET OVERWHELMED.
I DID A LITTLE POETRY CONTEST
WHICH I THOUGHT MIGHT BE
DIFFICULT AND CORNY.
AS I'M SURE YOU KNOW IF YOU
EVER RAISE THE FLAG AND SAY WE
ACCEPT POETRY HERE, YOU'RE
IN HEAVY TROUBLE, FREQUENTLY
BECAUSE EVERY BAD, CLUMSY
VERSIFIER FLOODS YOU.
I BET EIGHT OUT OF TEN OF THE
HUNDREDS OF POEMS THAT CAME
IN WERE VERY CLEVER.
THEY'RE CLEVER.
THEY'RE TREMENDOUSLY
WELL-INFORMED.
I FIND IF I MAKE AN ERROR OF
FACT, OR MISTAKE IN JUDGMENT,
THEY LET ME KNOW.
THEY ARE VERY GOOD
EDITORS OF ME.
THAT'S NOT REALLY ANSWERING
WHO THEY ARE, AND I'M TRYING
TO STAY AWAY FROM
THAT AWFUL THING.

Bob says DEMOGRAPHICS.

Peter says EVERYBODY, WELL NO, THE
OTHER ANSWER IS, EVERYBODY.
PEOPLE FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE.

Bob says YEAH.

Peter says THEY ARE MUCH MORE MALE
THAN THE ASSUMPTION IS.
THE DEMOGRAPHICS AND MY
LETTERS TELL ME THEY ARE ABOUT
HALF AND HALF,
FEMALE AND MALE.
THERE ARE A LOT OF
YOUNG PEOPLE NOW.
IT'S YOUNGER THAN IT WAS EIGHT
YEARS AGO FOR FAIRLY OBVIOUS
REASON, THE UNEMPLOYED,
YOUNG PEOPLE AT HOME.
THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE
THAT WORK WITH THEIR HANDS,
FARMERS, POTTERS.
THEY ARE MORE
RURAL THAN URBAN.
IT'S ALMOST AS IF THE FARTHER
YOU GET FROM TORONTO, OR THE
FARTHER YOU GET FROM EVERY
BIG CITY, THE MORE DEEP
THE RELATIONSHIP IS.
NOT NECESSARILY BROAD, BUT
DEEPER YOUR RELATIONSHIP IS
WITH THE LISTENER.
BUT I DON'T HAVE MUCH OF A
SENSE OF AGE OR EDUCATION,
BACKGROUNDS OR INCOME, OR
WHETHER THEY ARE UPWARDLY
MOBILE OR NOT.

Bob says SO YOU MIGHT NOT NECESSARILY
HAVE A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF
RADIO LISTENERS IN ESTEVAN,
THAN YOU HAVE IN TORONTO, BUT
YOU MIGHT HAVE A MUCH STRONGER
CONNECTION WITH THEM.
IS THAT YOUR SENSE OF IT?

Peter says YEAH.
AND ALSO THAT I PROBABLY HAVE,
OR WE, THE NETWORK PROBABLY
HAS A HIGHER PERCENTAGE, TOO,
IN ESTEVAN, AND EVEN MORE SO
OUTSIDE OF ESTEVAN.
I MEAN, ESTEVAN HAS
GOT 10,000 PEOPLE.
IF YOU WENT DOWN THE ROAD, TO
ARDILL, SASKATCHEWAN, WHERE
THERE ARE 300 PEOPLE, YOU
MIGHT FIND THAT 150 OF THEM
HAD SOME SENSE OF WHAT YOU
WERE DOING THAT MORNING.

Bob says REALLY?
WHEREAS IN TORONTO, IT WOULD BE
A TINY PERCENTAGE BY COMPARISON.

Peter says YEAH.

Bob says THERE'S A SENSE THE CBC MEANS
A LOT, CBC RADIO MEANS A LOT
OUTSIDE THE
METROPOLITAN AREAS.
I KNOW PEOPLE HAVE TOLD ME
THAT AGAIN AND AGAIN, AND I'VE
ENCOUNTERED IT TOO.
YOU FIND THEY KNOW EXACTLY
WHAT WAS ON
AS IT HAPPENS,
FOR INSTANCE.
AND THEY ARGUE
ABOUT IT, RIGHT?
THEY THINK
AS IT HAPPENS
WAS
HORRIBLY WRONG ON SOMETHING,
OR TERRIFICALLY
RIGHT ON SOMETHING.
WHEREAS IN TORONTO, YOU SORT
OF, YOU MAY TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.
AND YOU CAN TAKE
IT VERY CASUALLY.

Peter says THE ONE THING I CONTINUE
TO HEAR, NOW FROM THE SAME
PEOPLE, IN A SENSE, EIGHT
YEARS LATER, BUT I WOULD HEAR
AS I TRAVELLED AROUND THE
COUNTRY IN THE EIGHT YEARS I
WAS AWAY FROM TELEVISION, IS
THIS SOMEWHAT FRIGHTENING
PHRASE, YOU KEPT ME SANE FOR
THE YEARS I WAS... AND THEN
FILL IN THE BLANK.
IN A CABIN IN THE YUKON,
HAVING A YOUNG CHILD AT HOME,
GOING THROUGH SOME PERSONAL
DIFFICULTIES, WRITING MY PhD,
YOU KEPT ME SANE.
I SAY IT WITH SOME SENSE OF
TERROR BECAUSE I'M NOT
IN THE KEEPING SANE BUSINESS.

Bob says NO.

Peter says BUT I THINK IT'S A REFLECTION
OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THAT
MEDIUM THAT THEY HAVE.
AND OFTEN IT'S THE SUBSTITUTE
FOR A REGULAR ACCESSIBLE
DAILY NEWSPAPER, OR FOR A
GOOD TELEVISION SERVICE, FOR
THIS KIND OF CONVERSATION ON
THE TUBE FOR ANYTHING ELSE.
IT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS.
AND THE MORE REMOTE
YOUR LOCATION,
THE MORE DRAMATICALLY
TRUE THAT IS.

Bob says SO IT PARTLY HAS TO DO
WITH A LACK OF CHOICES.

Peter says YEAH.

Bob says BUT THAT PHRASE, YOU KEPT
ME SANE, THEY DIDN'T EXACTLY
NECESSARILY MEAN SANE, THEY
MEANT YOU KEPT ME, I GUESS
WHAT THEY MEANT WAS YOU KEPT
ME INTERESTED IN A LOT OF
THINGS I WOULDN'T BE
INTERESTED IN OTHERWISE.

Peter says IT GAVE ME SOMETHING
TO THINK ABOUT.
IT GAVE ME SOME CONTENT.

Bob says OF COURSE THAT LEADS TO WHAT
I WAS HOPING WOULD BE MY NEXT
QUESTION, WHICH IS THE
CONTENT OF YOUR PROGRAM.
BECAUSE I'D BE INTERESTED
IN HOW YOU DETERMINE THAT.
I THINK THOSE PEOPLE ARE
THINKING, IF THEY SAY YOU KEPT
ME SANE, THEY MEAN THE NEWS
DRIVES ME CRAZY, YOU KNOW?
AND I THINK IT DOES.
IF YOU LISTEN TO NOTHING BUT
NEWS BROADCASTS ALL THE TIME...

Peter says YOU WOULD BE CRAZY.

Bob says YOU WOULD BE A LITTLE CRAZY.

Peter says YOU'D BE CRAZY IF YOU
WANTED
TO DO IT, AND YOU'D CERTAINLY
BE CRAZY IF YOU DID IT.

Bob says THAT'S RIGHT, AFTERWARDS.
BUT ON
MORNINGSIDE, YOU ARE
GOING BEYOND THE NEWS,
OF COURSE, AND YOU'RE MAKING
A LOT OF SELECTIONS AMONG
VARIOUS SUBJECTS.
HOW DO YOU DECIDE?
WHAT IS THE IDEAL
MORNINGSIDE
ITEM?
WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR?

Peter says GEE, THE IDEAL
MORNINGSIDE
ITEM...?
YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO THINK
ABOUT WHAT CAME AFTER IT
AND BEFORE IT.
BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS
CONSTRUCTED IN THAT WAY THAT
YOU TRY TO GET SOME
MOTION THROUGH IT.
SO I WANT IT TO LEAP FORWARD
AND IT WOULD BE FUNNY,
IT WOULD BE LIGHT, IT
WOULD BE AMUSING.
BUT THAT WOULD DEPEND.

Bob says YOU WOULDN'T WANT
FIVE OF THOSE IN A ROW.

Peter says NO, NO.
I WOULD SAY IT SHOULD BE
CANADIAN, AND IT SHOULD BE
VERY TOPICAL, AND IT SHOULD
HAVE SOMETHING NEW AND
INTERESTING TO SAY IN AN
INTERESTING MANNER ABOUT
SOMETHING THAT IS ON
THE LISTENER'S MIND.
NOW, WHAT IS ON THE LISTENER'S
MIND VARIES SO MUCH FROM INUVIK
TO GLOUCESTER, THAT YOU CAN'T
FIGURE THAT OUT ALL THE TIME.
BUT YOU SENSE THE WAY THEY ARE
PICKING THEIR WAY THROUGH
THE NEWS, I THINK.
THE WAY THAT LISTENER IS AWARE
OF PARLIAMENTARY DEVELOPMENTS.
AND YOU THINK, WHAT DO I WANT
TO KNOW BEYOND THAT OR AHEAD
OF THAT?
WHAT WILL BE COMING THERE?
AND IN THAT EDITORIAL SENSE,
AND THE PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH
ME, AND I MEAN THEY ARE
TREMENDOUSLY IMPORTANT TO THE
WHOLE PROCESS, OFTEN MAKING
JUDGMENTS WHILE I'M ON THE
AIR, THEY ARE BOOKING
TOMORROW'S SHOW.
SO THERE HAS TO BE A LOT
OF UNDERSTANDING THERE.
BUT I THINK THAT'S EDITORIALLY
WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO IS
FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY NEED.
THEY CAN'T ALWAYS
ARTICULATE THAT.
A PERSON MAY NOT BE SITTING
AT HOME IN RED DEER SAYING,
I WISH THEY'D PHONE UP DALTON
CAMP AND SEE WHAT HE THINKS
ABOUT ROY ROMANOW'S RUMOURED
APPOINTMENT TO THE
MACDONALD COMMISSION.
BUT YOU KNOW IF YOU CAN GET
DALTON CAMP TO GIVE THAT
RESPONSE WHEN IT IS STILL
FRESH, AND THE QUESTION IS
STILL IN THE BACK OF THEIR
MIND, THEN YOU ARE DOING IT.

Bob says BUT QUITE OFTEN, OF COURSE,
YOU GO INTO ITEMS, AND INTO
MATERIAL THAT NO ONE, OR VERY
FEW PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY
COULD BE THINKING
ABOUT AT THAT MOMENT.

Peter says SURE.
AND THINGS WITH NO
TOPICAL PEG AT ALL.
SO THEN YOU, THE PROCESS,
VERY MUCH FROM MY OWN VARIED
EXPERIENCE FROM NEWSPAPERS TO
BOOKS, IS I THINK CLOSEST TO
A MAGAZINE IN THAT YOU ARE
TRYING TO ANTICIPATE NEEDS
AND, IN THE END, MUCH OF IT
COMES ABOUT WHAT INTERESTS YOU.
A LOT OF IT IS
WHAT INTERESTS ME.
I HAVE SOME BIZARRE
ELEMENTS OF CURIOSITY.

Bob says WHICH GO FAR BEYOND WHAT'S
NORMALLY IN THE MEDIA.
YOU ARE VERY INTERESTED
IN CHESS, OR YOU ARE VERY
INTERESTED IN CERTAIN BRAIN
SURGERY, AND YOU ARE VERY
INTERESTED IN
HOCKEY, OF COURSE.

Peter says I HAVE TO WATCH THAT
ONE ALL THE TIME.

Bob says YOU DO, EH?
OTHERWISE THE WHOLE PROGRAM
MIGHT BE TAKEN OVER
BY HOCKEY PLAYERS.

Peter says NO, NOW YOU'RE
DOING IT, TOO.
SEE, I REALLY
DON'T THINK THAT.
SOMETIMES THERE'S SOME
PRESSURE AROUND THE CBC TO
MAKE ME, I MEAN, THERE WAS
SOME PERCEPTION OF ME WHEN I
RETURNED TO A UNIT WHO DIDN'T
KNOW
THIS COUNTRY IN THE
MORNING,
AND WHO KNEW ME A
LITTLE BIT AS A WRITER, AND
SOMEONE WHO HAD BEEN ON
THEIR SHOW, I USED TO DO THE
OCCASIONAL SPORTS PIECE.
AND IT'S VERY EASY TO SAY IF
YOU ARE INTERESTED IN SPORT IN
THIS COUNTRY, YOU ARE A JOCK.

Bob says THE SPORTS DEPARTMENT IS NOW
TAKING OVER THE WHOLE PLACE.

Peter says THAT'S RIGHT.
SO I NEED A
POLYESTER SUIT MAYBE.
BUT THAT'S PART OF
MY OWN CURIOSITY.
BUT I'M JUST AS INTERESTED
IN COOKING, IN A SLIGHTLY
DIFFERENT WAY.
SO I LIKE TO FOLLOW
THAT INTEREST.
AND I THINK I'M AT MY BEST ON
THE RADIO, WHEN IT IS NATURAL
CURIOSITY THAT'S DRIVING ME.
WHEN I GENUINELY WANT TO KNOW
HOW YOU MAKE MARRON GLACE
OR WHY THEY'RE KEEPING
THIS YOUNG NEWFOUNDLAND KID
OUT OF A HIGHER HOCKEY LEVEL,
OR WHAT IT IS DALTON CAMP
REALLY THINKS?
IF I REALLY CARE, I'M GOOD.
IT'S KIND OF JOURNALISM
BY LABEL, OR BY MANDATE, AS
THE CBC SAYS, NOT TOO GOOD.

Bob says DID YOU FIND YOURSELF
SOMETIMES IN THE MIDDLE OF A
ITEM SAYING I HAVE TO DO THIS
BECAUSE IT'S A GOOD THING,
OR MY PRODUCERS WANT IT?

Peter says SURE.

Bob says AND I'LL GET THROUGH
IT AS FAST AS I CAN.

Peter says SURE.

Bob says THAT KIND OF THING.
I'M INTERESTED IN HOW THE
PROCESS OF WHAT YOU COULD CALL
YOUR STYLE DEVELOPED BECAUSE
IT SEEMS TO ME YOU HAD A
TRAINING IN VERY
RIGID JOURNALISM.
THE JOURNALISM OF THE '50s AT
MACLEAN'S MAGAZINE
AND SO
ON, WHEN IT WAS REALLY JUST
THE FACTS ORGANIZED IN AS
LITERATE A WAY AS POSSIBLE.
BUT VERY LITTLE PERSONALITY.
THAT IS THE PERSONALITY OF THE
WRITER WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE
IN THERE, UNLIKE THE
MAGAZINE ARTICLES OF TODAY.
AND SOMEHOW YOU MADE A
TRANSITION FROM THAT QUITE
RIGID, KIND OF OLD JOURNALISM
TO SOMETHING THAT IS A
MODIFIED VERSION OF
THE NEW JOURNALISM.
BECAUSE YOU'RE VERY
PRESENT ON THAT PROGRAM.
IN A WAY MOST PEOPLE AREN'T.
INCLUDING THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO
HAVE TRIED TO DO THE PROGRAM.
AND SOME OF THEM, GOOD OR BAD,
BUT THEY'RE NOT VERY MUCH THERE.
YOU'RE THERE IN A
SPECIAL SORT OF WAY.
AND I WONDER IF THAT HAS TO
DEAL WITH THE FACT YOU WENT
FROM BEING A KIND OF
OLD-FASHIONED JOURNALIST INTO
BEING SOMEONE WHO DID PERSONAL
JOURNALISM, AND WHO WAS
GIVING PERSONAL
OPINIONS, AND SO ON?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Peter Gzowski. Broadcaster, Journalist."

Peter says WELL, AS YOU CERTAINLY KNOW
BECAUSE THIS IS SOMETHING YOU
AND I TALK ABOUT IN PRIVATE,
AND IT SEEMS SORT OF STRANGE
TO BE EXPLAINING IT TO YOU, OR
TO BE TRYING TO DEAL WITH AN
IDEA, BUT IT DEEPLY
INTERESTS ME.
BUT AT A TIME WHEN OUR
GENERATION, YOURS AND MINE,
WAS BEING FORMED IN THE
FORGE OF PARTICULARLY THE
MAGAZINES, AND WE'RE ALL,
AS WE SAY, THE CHILDREN
OF RALPH ALLEN.
AND RALPH ALLEN, WHO
WAS OUR GOD AND MENTOR.

Bob says I SHOULD EXPLAIN HE WAS
THE EDITOR OF
MACLEAN'S.

Peter says WHEN ALL OF US WORKED THERE.
ALSO I DON'T THINK HAD A
CAPITAL I ON HIS TYPEWRITER,
WITH RARE EXCEPTIONS WHEN HE
WOULD STEP ASIDE AND WRITE
AN OPINION PIECE.
BUT AS A REPORTER, HE SIMPLY
NEVER WROTE IN A FIRST
PERSON WAY.
BUT AT THAT TIME, LATE '50s,
EARLY '60s, WAS THE BEGINNING
OF A WHOLE NEW PERCEPTION
OF JOURNALISM, WHICH WAS
REVOLUTIONIZED BY TOM WOLFE
AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT
TO IT NOT ONLY A FIRST PERSON
APPROACH, BUT A PERSONALISM
OF ENTERPRISE.

Bob says AN INTIMACY.

Peter says YOU COULD BE THERE IN A WAY
THAT WOLFE, WHO WE COULD TALK
ABOUT FOR FOUR HOURS, AND
OFTEN FIGHT ABOUT, BUT I THINK
TOM WOLFE CHANGED PERCEPTIONS
OF WHAT YOU WOULD DO WHICH
WAS TO GET IN AND GIVE
FLAVOUR FOR FLAVOUR'S SAKE,
OR A SENSE OF BEING THERE.
SO IF I COULD LEAP WAY AHEAD,
REALLY TWENTY YEARS TO WHAT
I'M TRYING NOW TO DO ON THE
RADIO, I DON'T THINK IT'S ONLY
I WHO IS THERE.
WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO
BY PERSONALIZING AND
INFORMALIZING MY OWN PRESENCE,
AND FOLLOWING MY OWN
CURIOSITY, AND I DON'T
INTELLECTUALIZE THIS VERY
MUCH, BUT WHAT I'M TRYING TO
DO, I THINK, IS BRING THE
OTHER PERSON IN THE STUDIO,
OR ON THE LINE, THERE IN THE
SAME SENSE.
SO WHAT THE LISTENER TO THE
RADIO, PERSON I THINK OF IN
THE SINGULAR ALL THE TIME,
THAT THAT LISTENER IS SHARING
AN EXPERIENCE.
AND I THINK IT'S THAT
KIND OF JOURNALISM.
NOW WHETHER I'M THERE BECAUSE
I'M PRESENTLY THERE, I LEAN
INTO MY SUBJECTS, AND I
LISTEN, AND I TRY TO GET
THE INFLECTION.
BUT I'M TRYING TO GET THE
LISTENER TO COME THROUGH ME IN
A WAY THAT I THINK A GENERATION
OF JOURNALISTS TRIED TO
PRESENT SOME ABSTRACT CONCEPTS
IN CONCRETE PRESENCES.
I KEEP WANTING TO SAY TOM
WOLFE, BUT I'D BE MAKING
MORE OF THAT.
BUT THERE'S A --

Bob says WELL, MAILER, OF COURSE, WAS
SPECTACULARLY SUCCESSFUL,
WASN'T HE?

Peter says AND JIMMY BRESLIN AND GAY
TALESE IN OTHER WAYS, AND IN
THIS COUNTRY, NOT TOO MANY.
WE WERE VERY SLOW
TO RESPOND TO THAT.
AND I THINK MANY OF US THOUGHT
WHAT YOU DID WAS START TO
WRITE IN THE FIRST PERSON, OR
START TO APPROACH A STORY BY
RELATING YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE
IN THAT SUBJECT FIRST, RATHER
THAN REALIZING WHAT THE REAL
GENIUS OF THOSE PEOPLE WAS,
WAS TO PRESENT THE MATERIAL AS
IT WERE UNEDITED BUT, IN FACT,
VERY CAREFULLY EDITED THROUGH
ALL OF THEIR PERCEPTIONS.
AND IN A WAY, THAT'S WHAT I'M
TRYING TO DO ON THE RADIO NOW.
AND WHEN I WRITE, AS WELL.

Bob says IS ACHIEVE THAT INTIMACY.

Peter says I THINK SO, YEAH.

Bob says THAT SENSE OF CONNECTION.
IS THAT, AS WOLFE WOULD SAY,
A DEVELOPMENT OUT OF FICTION
THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO GET THE
QUALITIES OF FICTION, WHICH WE
COULD SAY TELEVISION FICTION,
OR FICTION IN A BOOK.
ARE YOU TRYING TO GET
THOSE INTO JOURNALISM?

Peter says WELL, YEAH.
THE PART OF ME THAT EARNS HIS
LIVING AT A TYPEWRITER, VERY
MUCH, I THINK, WE'VE ALL
LEARNED THAT YOU CAN USE
NOVELISTIC DEVICES, YOU CAN
USE INTERIOR MONOLOGUE AND
DIALOGUE AND SCENE
DESCRIPTION, AND
CHARACTERIZATION IN A WAY
THAT AN EARLIER GENERATION OF
JOURNALISTS DIDN'T USE.
BUT I THINK AS WELL AS THAT,
WHAT PEOPLE OF OUR GENERATION
AND PERHAPS THE BACKGROUND YOU
AND I SHARE, THE RALPH ALLEN
DISCIPLINE OF THE
MACLEAN'S
STAFF ARTICLE, FORMULA AS IT
WAS, WAS THAT SENSE
OF DISCIPLINE.
LOOKING FOR SHAPE,
LOOKING FOR STYLE.
KNOWING WHERE YOU'RE GOING.
STRUCTURING A
PIECE AS IT GOES.
SO ALL OF THOSE THINGS, IT
OFTEN SEEMS TO ME, ARE MARRIED
WHEN YOU CAN DO THE PROPER
LIVE RADIO INTERVIEW SO IT HAS
TEXTURE, IT HAS A SENSE OF
CHARACTER, IT HAS A SENSE
OF NARRATIVE.
AND IT HAS, IN THE WAY A
CRAFTED MAGAZINE PIECE HAS,
A BEGINNING, AN EVOLUTION,
MIDDLE, AND AN END.
AND THE IDEAL RADIO PIECE
HAS THAT SAME STRUCTURE.
AND I THINK IT'S THAT SENSE OF
DISCIPLINE FROM 20 YEARS AGO
WE BRING COUPLED WITH
TECHNIQUES THAT WE'VE LEARNED
FROM OTHER WAYS OF DOING IT.
THAT'S THE MOST POMPOUS
I'VE EVER SOUNDED.
I JUST PHONE PEOPLE UP AND
TALK TO THEM ON THE RADIO.

Bob says THAT'S RIGHT.
IT'S JUST THAT EASY.
WELL, I'VE CERTAINLY FOLLOWED
THE EVOLUTION OF THAT STYLE
WITH GREAT INTEREST
AS A LISTENER.
BUT I WONDER HOW MUCH YOU FEEL
ABOUT SORT OF REVEALING YOUR
OWN PREJUDICES
OR YOUR OWN SELF?
YOUR OWN EGO,
IF YOU LIKE.
REVEALING THAT ON THE RADIO
OR TELEVISION, OR WHATEVER.
HOW DO YOU FEEL
ABOUT THAT QUESTION?
IS THAT SOMETHING
THAT BOTHERS YOU?
WELL, TO GO BACK ONCE MORE,
AND I'LL NOT BRING HIM UP
AGAIN, BUT RALPH ALLEN WAS
A PERSON WHO WAS INTENSELY
NERVOUS ABOUT DOING ANY
RADIO OR TELEVISION.
AND I THINK THAT WAS BECAUSE
HE FELT HE WAS REALLY A NOBODY
EXCEPT A WONDERFUL
MAN WITH A TYPEWRITER.
AND I BELIEVE HE HAD A VERY
HIGH OPINION OF HIS ABILITIES
AS A WRITER, ALL
OF IT JUSTIFIED.
BUT HE WOULD NOT WANT TO SAY
WHO HE WAS OR WHERE HE CAME
FROM, OR THAT SORT OF THING,
EXCEPT THROUGH THE VEIL OF A
NOVEL,
PEACE RIVER
COUNTRY
AND SO ON.
HE WAS THE OLD-FASHIONED
TYPE IN THAT WAY.
YOU MOVED AWAY
FROM THAT THING.
YOU'RE A MEMBER OF ANOTHER
ENTIRELY DIFFERENT GENERATION,
OF COURSE.
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

Peter says I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING YOU
STRUGGLE WITH ALL THE TIME.
LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE, I CAN
BE VERY SELF-INDULGENT
ABOUT THAT.
AND I'VE HAD SOME VERY GOOD
EDITORS PAST RALPH ALLEN,
INCLUDING GARY ROSS, WHO WORKS
WITH YOU AT
SATURDAY NIGHT
MAGAZINE, WHO HAS GUIDED ME
THROUGH A COUPLE OF STICKY
MOMENTS OF THAT VERY
FIRST PERSON QUESTION.
AND I THINK A GOOD RULE THAT
PEOPLE COULD KEEP IN THEIR
HEAD AS THEY ARE APPROACHING
THIS IS DON'T WRITE ABOUT
YOURSELF UNLESS YOU REALLY
THINK YOU ARE MORE INTERESTING
THAN THE PEOPLE YOU'VE GOT
UNDER YOUR SCRUTINY,
OR YOUR TYPEWRITER.

Bob says A GOOD MANY WRITERS WILL SAY,
WELL, THAT'S TRUE IN EVERY CASE.

Peter says A LOT OF WRITERS THINK THAT.
I THINK THERE ARE MOMENTS WHEN
YOU DO REACH THAT POINT OF
BEING MORE INTERESTING WHEN
SOMETHING THAT HAS HAPPENED TO
YOU, AS REPORTER, HAS GIVEN
YOU AN INSIGHT INTO A STORY
THAT YOU CAN BEST TRANSMIT TO
THE READER, OR IN THE RADIO
CASE, THE LISTENERS, I'M
NOT SURE HOW MUCH THIS ALL
TRANSLATES DIRECTLY TO RADIO.
BUT I THINK WHEN I SKATED
WITH THE EDMONTON OILERS.
WHEN I WAS TRYING TO CAPTURE
THAT FEELING, I DIDN'T THINK
THERE WAS A WAY I COULD CONVEY
WHAT THAT FELT LIKE WITHOUT
ADMITTING I ACTUALLY DID IT.

Bob says YEAH.

Peter says BUT THERE WERE MOMENTS IN
AN EARLIER DRAFT OF THAT
PARTICULAR BOOK WHEN I GOT --
IT'S VERY TEMPTING.
GIVEN THAT LICENSE TO WRITE
ABOUT YOURSELF IS VERY TEMPTING.
IT'S A LOT EASIER TO
WRITE ABOUT YOURSELF.
AND IT'S VERY SEDUCTIVE.
SO THE LONG LAST ANSWER TO
YOUR QUESTION ABOUT RALPH
ALLEN IS THAT GHOST
IS ALWAYS WITH ME.
IF I WERE AS GOOD AS I WANTED
TO BE, I WOULD ALWAYS BE
CONSCIOUS OF RALPH ALLEN, AND
GARY ROSS, AND OTHER PEOPLE
SAYING, HEY, WAIT A MINUTE,
WHO REALLY CARES ABOUT YOU?
AND I HAVE TO APPLY THAT RULE.
DON'T ALWAYS DO IT.
WISH MORE PEOPLE DID.

Bob says YOU WISH MORE PEOPLE DID.
WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT
THE MAGAZINE WRITERS OF THE
GENERATION THAT CAME AFTER
YOU AND THE JOURNALISTS?
DO YOU FIND THEM
EXTREMELY SELF-INDULGENT?
I MIGHT AS WELL LAY
MY CARDS ON THE TABLE.
I THINK SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS IS
THE GREAT CURSE OF THIS AGE.
AND I THINK WHEN YOU START
GIVING YOUR CHILDHOOD IN THE
MIDDLE OF AN ARTICLE ON THE
CONSTITUTION, YOU'VE PASSED
OVER INTO SOME LINE WHERE
FEW WILL FOLLOW YOU.
NOW, HOW DO YOU SEE IT WHEN
YOU'RE LOOKING AT THOSE THINGS?

Peter says THEY MAKE ME ANGRY.
AND PARTICULARLY SOME OF THEM
HAVE REAL GIFTS, AND REAL
ABILITIES, AND OFTEN
INSIGHTS TO GIVE YOU.
BUT I'VE HAD IN THE PAST NOT
VERY LONG WHILE HAVE HAD TWO
CONVERSATIONS WITH YOUNG
WRITERS EACH OF WHOM HAS
EXPRESSED -- WELL, ONE OF THEM
WAS A GUY WHO WRITES FOR
THE GLOBE AND MAIL, FANFARE.
IF YOU WANT TO SEE THIS KIND
OF JOURNALISM GOING ON,
LOOK AT
FANFARE.

Bob says YES,
FANFARE
IS THE
REPOSITORY OF SELF --
IT'S TO SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS
WHAT THE OXFORD ENGLISH
DICTIONARY IS TO THE
ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

Peter says WELL, THIS WRITER FROM
FANFARE
ASKED ME WHAT I WAS
DOING WHEN I WAS
WORKING ON THE OILERS?
I SAID, I'M FOLLOWING THE
EDMONTON OILERS AROUND
FOR A YEAR.
I'M GOING TO WRITE
A BOOK ABOUT THAT.
HE SAID, GEE, I ENVY YOU THAT.
I SAID, WHAT DO YOU ENVY?
HE SAID, THAT YOU'RE GOING OUT
THERE AND TALKING TO THEM.
WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHY HE
COULDN'T GO TALK TO THEM.
THE OTHER GUY SAID, THIS IS A
JOURNALIST IN THIS CITY,
WHO SAID TO ME, I'VE WRITTEN
A PLAY SO I COULD GET OUT OF
MY ROOM.
BECAUSE HE THOUGHT WHEN THE
PLAY GOT PRODUCED HE WOULD GO
TO THE THEATRE AND
HE WOULD GO DOWNTOWN.

Bob says BUT JOURNALISTS DON'T
GET OUT OF THEIR ROOMS.

Peter says DON'T GET OUT OF THEIR ROOMS.
YOU KNOW, THE FIRST THING I
WOULD GIVE A LOT OF YOUNG
JOURNALISTS IS -- I ALMOST SAID
A FIST FULL OF DIMES, WHICH
SHOWS MY AGE -- A FIST FULL OF
QUARTERS TO USE THE TELEPHONE.
AND THE SECOND IS
SOME SUBWAY TICKETS.
AND I THINK I AM OLD ENOUGH
AND CRANKY ENOUGH AND FEELING
MIDDLE-AGED ENOUGH ABOUT THAT
THAT I REALLY LIKE TO ROOT
SOME OF THEM OUT AND
SAY GO LOOK AT STUFF.
THAT'S WHAT WE USED TO DO.
AS OUR FRIEND KEN LEFOLII,
ANOTHER BRILLIANT EDITOR
OF OUR TIME, SAID, IN REVIEWING
A RECENT COLLECTION OF OLD
MAGAZINE ARTICLES, HE SAID,
THE LINE THAT STICKS IN
MY HEAD WAS, WHEN I WAS A
JOURNALIST, YOU USED TO FIND
THINGS OUT AND TELL PEOPLE
ABOUT IT.
THAT'S WHAT YOU DID.
AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK WE
SHOULD ALL BE DOING, AND YET,
IT'S SO EASY NOT TO FIND
THINGS OUT, BUT TELL PEOPLE
ABOUT IT.
THEY DON'T DO ENOUGH WORK.
THEY'RE LAZY,
THOSE YOUNG COOTS.

Bob says NOW, IF I BANG MY HAND ON THE
DESK AND SAY I AGREE WITH YOU
ENTIRELY, WE'LL BOTH BE
MIDDLE-AGED OLD GENTS
OF JOURNALISM.

Peter says THAT'S RIGHT.

Bob says I WONDER HOW YOU FEEL, THE
COUNTRY YOU'RE REACHING IN
RADIO IS DIFFERENT FROM
THE COUNTRY YOU REACH IN
MAGAZINES, OR YOU USED TO
REACH IN MAGAZINES, WHEN YOU
WERE REALLY REGULARLY
IN MAGAZINES.
YOU ONLY WRITE ABOUT ONE
MAGAZINE ARTICLE OR SO
A YEAR NOW.
REMEMBER AT ONE POINT YOU WERE
MANAGING EDITOR AT
MACLEAN'S
MAGAZINE, AT ANOTHER
POINT YOU WERE EDITOR OF
THE STAR WEEKLY.
ANOTHER POINT, LATER, YOU
WERE EDITOR OF
MACLEAN'S,
AND YOU WERE TRYING TO REACH
A WHOLE COUNTRY THERE.
WHICH, AS YOU MENTIONED, YOU
KNOW, YOU'VE GOT TO THINK OF
SOMETHING THAT WILL INTEREST
PEOPLE IN NEWFOUNDLAND AND
SOMETHING THAT WILL INTEREST
THEM IN VANCOUVER.
A VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEM.
BUT WHAT... HOW IS IT
DIFFERENT FOR RADIO?
DOING IT THROUGH RADIO?
IS IT A LOT EASIER?
I SENSE THAT --

Peter says FIRST OF ALL, IT'S
MORE IMMEDIATE.
I MEAN, ONE OF THE NICE THINGS
ABOUT RADIO IS YOU CAN DO YOUR
RESEARCH ON THE AIR.
WHAT YOU'RE FINDING OUT, THE
LISTENER IS FINDING OUT ABOUT
AT THE SAME TIME.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT
AWFUL MAGAZINE, YOU DON'T HAVE
TO ANSWER THAT AWFUL MAGAZINE
NEED OF HAVING TO THINK THREE
MONTHS IN AHEAD,
OR TWO MONTHS.
SO THAT BY DEFINITION
IS DIFFERENT.
SECONDLY, I SAID THIS IN THE
INTRODUCTION I WROTE TO THE
BOOK I PUT TOGETHER OUT OF
MY FIRST RADIO EXPERIENCE.
I SAID THAT THAT AUDIENCE
HAS TAUGHT ME A LOT.
AND I WISH I HAD A MAGAZINE OR
A JOURNAL TO EDIT NOW USING
THE LESSONS THAT HAD BEEN
GIVEN TO ME BY THAT AUDIENCE
THAT I CONTINUE TO
SAY IS SO SMART.
I THINK THAT FAR TOO MANY
MAGAZINES AND JOURNALS
GENERALLY IN THIS COUNTRY
WRITE DOWN TO PEOPLE THEY
OUGHT TO BE WRITING UP TO.
AND I THINK SOME OF THE
LAZINESS WOULD DISAPPEAR.
I GUESS IT'S A LITTLE TOO EASY
TO SAY I WISH I COULD GO BACK
AND DO SOME OF THOSE MAGAZINES
AGAIN BECAUSE IF WE HAD A
SENSE OF DISCIPLINE AS
YOUNG JOURNALISTS AND YOUNG
REPORTERS AND YOUNG WRITERS
AND EDITORS TOO, I THINK WE
ALSO HAD A SENSE OF SMARTASS-
NESS THAT HAS BEEN FAIRLY,
THAT HAS BEEN DRIVEN
OUT OF ME, I HOPE.
I THINK I'M MORE -- THAT WOULD
BE, IF I ONLY HAD ONE POINT,
THAT WOULD BE A CENTRAL POINT.
I WOULD LIKE TO GO BACK AND
DO SOME OF THOSE THINGS AGAIN
AND NOT BE SO GLIB
AND EASY ABOUT IT.

Bob says I THINK IF IT'S HARD FOR A
JOURNALIST TO GO OUT AND FIND
THINGS OUT, AS WE CERTAINLY
AGREE IT IS, IT'S PROBABLY
JUST AS HARD TO BEAR IN MIND,
OR INTERNALIZE, AS THEY SAY,
THE BELIEF THAT THE PERSON I'M
WRITING FOR, OR SPEAKING TO,
IS PROBABLY JUST
AS BRIGHT AS I AM.
AND THERE'S A VERY GOOD CHANCE
HE'S QUITE A BIT BRIGHTER, OR
SHE IS QUITE A BIT BRIGHTER,
AND MAY KNOW MORE ABOUT
THIS SUBJECT.

Peter says YEAH.

Bob says I THINK THAT'S VERY, VERY
HARD TO BUILD THAT INTO YOUR
PRACTICE, SO TO SPEAK.
BECAUSE YOU MAY FEEL THEY ARE
NOT AS PATIENT AS YOU ARE
BECAUSE YOU ARE PAID TO BE
PATIENT WITH ALL THESE FACTS
YOU'VE AMASSED.
BUT YOU HAVE TO THINK
OF THEM IN THOSE TERMS.

Peter says YOU KNOW, I'M JUST THINKING,
REALLY OLD EVENT, BUT ONE OF
THE THINGS I GET VERY
CONSCIOUS OF ON THE RADIO IS
HOW INDIVIDUALLY PEOPLE
LISTEN TO THE RADIO.

Bob says ONE OR TWO.

Peter says AT A TIME.
ONE AT A TIME.
PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN
TO THE RADIO TOGETHER.
THEY WATCH TELEVISION
PERHAPS TOGETHER.

Bob says TWO MAY BE IN THE
KITCHEN FOR A WHILE.

Peter says THAT'S COINCIDENCE.
THEN THEY SAY SHUT UP I'M
LISTENING TO THE RADIO,
NOT THE WAY, 'LOOK
WHAT'S ON TELEVISION'.
I HOPE THEY SAY THAT.
BUT I'M JUST GOING WAY BACK,
I'M THINKING OF RALPH ALLEN,
THE EDITOR WE QUOTE.
PEOPLE OF OUR AGE QUOTE HIM
ALL THE TIME, AND I'M SURE
THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE
THAT SAY WHO WAS THIS GUY?
EDITOR OF
MACLEAN'S,
SHY
TOUGH-MINDED, BIT OF A PRUDE
SASKATCHEWAN BOY
WITH A TOUGH PENCIL.
BUT WHEN I EDITED THE YELLOW
PAGES OF
MACLEAN'S, I USED
TO SEND IN THE HEADLINES
THAT I WROTE.
AND I REMEMBER SENDING IN
A PARTICULAR BATCH OF
HEADLINES, THAT WOULD BE ABOUT
1958, AND THE HEADS WERE
SOMETHING LIKE HALF OF YOU
WILL GET MEASLES IN 1959.
OR YOU ARE ABOUT TO
BURST THROUGH --

Bob says THEY WERE ALL YOU.

Peter says THEY WERE ALL YOU.
YOU HAD THIS WONDERFUL
'I WILL NOW EXPLAIN'.
AND RALPH SENT THEM BACK TO ME
IN THE GRUFF, AND SOME OF HIS
MARGINAL NOTES WERE
WONDERFUL THINGS.
BUT ALL HE HAD DONE WAS
CIRCLE EVERY USE OF THE
SECOND PERSON IN THIS
PARTICULAR BATCH OF
HEADLINES, AND HE'D
WRITTEN “NOT ME.”
NOT ME.
AND I THINK, IN A SENSE, THE
DISCIPLINE THAT HE WAS SAYING,
HE WAS TRYING TO GIVE TO ALL
OF US IS PART OF THAT SELF-SAME
SIMPLE RESPECT FOR THE PERSON
WITH WHOM WE ARE ALL TRYING
TO COMMUNICATE.
WHICH, AS YOU SAY, IS OFTEN
SMARTER THAN YOU OR ME.

Bob says YEAH.

Peter says WELL, YOU MAYBE.

Bob says LATELY, THERE'S BEEN A
GREAT DEAL OF TALK ABOUT THE
CHANGING MEDIA IN THIS
COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE
OF THE APPLEBAUM-
HEBERT COMMITTEE.
THERE'S BEEN A SUGGEST FOR A
COMPLETE REORGANIZATION OF CBC
TELEVISION, IN EFFECT, STRIP
IT DOWN TO A SMALL BUREAUCRACY
AND SELL OUT ALL THE
PROGRAMS, OR RATHER FARM
OUT ALL THE PROGRAMS.
IN OTHER WORDS, YOU WOULD
HAVE A WHOLE PRIVATE SECTOR
FEEDING ONE PROGRAM AFTER
ANOTHER INTO THE CBC
AND THE CBC MERELY
A PROGRAMMER.
HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THAT?
I KNOW YOU'VE THOUGHT ABOUT
IT BECAUSE I HEARD YOU
BROADCASTING ON IT.
YOU'VE HAD A LOT OF EXPERIENCE
WITH CBC TELEVISION AND EVEN
MORE WITH CBC RADIO.
HOW DOES THAT
NOTION AFFECT YOU?

Peter says I THINK IN AN ABSTRACT WAY
THERE'S SOMETHING TO BE SAID
FOR IT.
I MEAN IT'S PROBABLY QUITE
A GOOD ABSTRACT IDEA TO SIT
AROUND SMOKE YOUR PIPE ABOUT
AND SAY, YEAH, THAT WOULD BE
BETTER IF WE COULD HAVE A
LOT OF PEOPLE MAKING THESE
WONDERFUL PROGRAMS, AND THE
CBC WOULD JUST CHOOSE, I'LL
HAVE ONE OF THOSE AND WHY
DON'T YOU GO AWAY FOR A YEAR
AND MAKE US ONE OF THOSE.
I THINK TWO THINGS ABOUT
WHEN IT TURNS INTO REALITY,
AS THESE THINGS HAPPEN.
ONE IS THAT THE CBC,
WHICH YOU HAVE TO HAVE A
LOVE-HATE RELATIONSHIP WITH.
YOU HAVE TO LOVE IT
AND HATE IT OFTEN
FOR EXACTLY THE
SAME THING.
BUT IN THIS CASE, I HAVE
SEEN FROM WITHIN THAT PLACE
A CLOSING OF RANKS.
PIERRE JUNO GETTING MAD,
AND ALL THESE PEOPLE,
PETER HERRNDORF WRITING
LETTERS TO
THE GLOBE AND MAIL.
EVERYBODY SAYING, OH!
A TREMENDOUS LOYALTY, WHICH
ISN'T SO IMPORTANT ON ITSELF,
BUT DOES, I THINK, JUST SHOW
THE IMPORTANCE OF THAT
OLD INEFFICIENT,
BUREAUCRAT-RIDDEN, MEMO
MESMERIZED OPERATION.
IT'S STILL A PLACE WITH A
LIFE AND A SENSE OF THING.
A SENSE OF ENTITY, A SENSE
OF IMPORTANCE OF ITSELF.
AND THAT, BY ITSELF,
IS WORTH PRESERVING.
THAT I THINK IS
WORTH PRESERVING.
THE OTHER PART IN REALITY,
WHERE ARE ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO
ARE GOING TO MAKE ALL THESE
WONDERFUL PROGRAMS FOR US?
SO WE'RE GOING TO MAKE
MEATBALLS
AGAIN?
AND I DON'T NEED THAT,
THANKS VERY MUCH.
WHEN CANADIANS SET OUT TO DO
SOMETHING JUST BECAUSE IT'S A
THING THAT SEEMS WORTHWHILE
DOING, THEY DO
SEVEN DAYS,
AND THEY DO
THIS COUNTRY
IN THE MORNING, THEY DO
MORNINGSIDE, AND THEY DO AS
IT HAPPENS, AND IN A CURIOUS
WAY, I THINK THEY'RE
DOING
THE JOURNAL.
WHEN THEY SET OUT TO PRODUCE
CANADIAN EDITIONS OF SOMEBODY
ELSE'S NEEDS, THEY GET
MACLEAN'S
MAGAZINE,
WHICH IS A NEWS MAGAZINE.
I LIKED THE OLD ONE BETTER
WHERE YOU COULD WRITE STUFF
AND HAVE ARTICLES IN IT, AND
THEN YOU COULD GET YOUR NEWS
MAGAZINE FROM
TIME.
THAT WAS OKAY.
AND SO ON.
AND YOU ALSO GET
90 MINUTES LIVE.
IF YOU SET OUT TO DO A
CANADIAN EDITION OF SOMETHING
THAT ISN'T A REFLECTION
OF WHO YOU ARE.
IF YOU TRY TO REFLECT WHO YOU
ARE IN TERMS SOMEONE ELSE HAS
INVENTED FOR YOU, YOU'RE
NOT AS GOOD AT IT.
BUT IF YOU SET OUT TO WRITE
NOVELS THAT REFLECT YOUR TIME
AND YOUR PLACE, SOME OF THOSE
NOVELS WILL BECOME IMPORTANT
IN THE WHOLE WORLD
OF ENGLISH LETTERS.
AND IF YOU SET OUT TO DO
FILMS THAT ARE ABOUT YOU,
SOME OF THEM WILL GET
ONTO THE WORLD SCENE.
BUT YOU DON'T HAVE
TO GLOBALIZE IT.

The image freezes and music plays as the end credits roll.

With Robert Fulford, Richard Gwyn, and Naomi Loeb.

Music, Gene Martynec.

Producer, Stephen Patrick.

A Production of TVOntario. Copyright 1988, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Peter Gzowski