Transcript: Jim McCarter: The Exit Interview | May 01, 2013

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted red tie. Behind him, a wall screen reads “The Agenda, with Steve Paikin.”

Steve says FOR A DECADE, HE HAS
BEEN THE PERSON INSPECTING THE
PROVINCE'S BOOKS, ENSURING
ONTARIANS ARE GETTING GOOD VALUE
FOR THE TAX DOLLARS THAT THEIR
GOVERNMENT SPENDS.
HIS MOST RECENT REPORT FOCUSED
ON THE 275 MILLION dollar PRICE TAG
TAXPAYERS WILL SHELL OUT FOR THE
CANCELLATION OF A
PARTIALLY-BUILT GAS PLANT IN
MISSISSAUGA LEADING UP TO THE
2011 ELECTION.
BUT NOW, HE'S RETIRING.
SO WITH THAT, WE WELCOME JIM
McCARTER, THE DEPARTING
AUDITOR GENERAL OF ONTARIO.

Jim is in his seventies, clean-shaven, with white hair. He’s wearing a black suit, white shirt, and spotted black tie.

Steve continues WELCOME.
AS OF YESTERDAYING RIGHT?

Jim says YEAH.
IT'S GOOD TO BE BACK ON THE
AGENDA.

Steve says NICE TO HAVE YOU HERE.
I WANT TO START TALKING ABOUT
THIS MISSISSAUGA REPORT, WHICH
WAS YOUR LAST VERY HIGH PROFILE
REPORT.
CAREER.
THE OBJECTIVE OF THAT REPORT?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Jim McCarter. Auditor General of Ontario."

Jim says THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS THAT I REPORT
TO, THEY PASSED A MOTION.
ALL THREE PARTIES SUPPORTED IT.
WHAT THE MOTION BASICALLY SAID
IS THEY SAID AUDITOR, WHAT'S THE
BOTTOM LINE?
WHAT IS THE TRUE COST OF
CANCELLING AND RELOCATING THE
MISSISSAUGA POWER PLANT?

The caption changes to "The Exit Interview. Cancellation costs."

Steve says BECAUSE WE HAD SEEN
DIFFERENT NUMBERS.

Jim says EXACTLY.
THE GOVERNMENT, THE MINISTER OF
ENERGY, CHRIS BENTLEY SAID IT'S
190 MILLION dollars.
WE HAD SOMEWHAT HIGHER NUMBER.
WE FELT AS YOU INDICATED IN YOUR
INTRODUCTION, WE FELT THE COST
TO THE PUBLIC WOULD BE ABOUT
275 MILLION dollars.

Steve says HOW DID YOU GET THERE?

Jim says BASICALLY WE'RE LOOKING AT A
NUMBER OF THINGS.
DIRECT COSTS.
FOR INSTANCE, THEY PAID
150 MILLION dollars TO A U.S. HEDGE FUND.
SUPPLIERS.
THEY HAD TO SETTLE SOME EXISTING
LAWSUITS.
FUTURE COSTS DOWN THE ROAD.
FOR INSTANCE, BECAUSE YOU HAVE
TO BRING THE POWER FROM DOWN
NEAR SARNIA TO THE MORE
POPULATED CENTRES LIKE THE GTA.
THERE'S A LINE LOST.
A COST ASSOCIATED WITH THAT.
BUT WE ALSO FOUND OFFSETTING
SAVINGS.
THINGS THAT KIND OF WERE
INVOLVED IN THAT, UPGRADING
TRANSFORMERS AND THERE WAS SOME
THINGS WE LOOKED AT.
WE SPENT A FAIR BIT OF TIME ON
THAT DIDN'T TURN OUT TO HAVE ANY
IMPACT.
TRANSMISSION LINES?
WE FOUND WE DIDN'T.
AT THE END OF THE DAY FELT 275
WAS A GOOD ESTIMATE.
IT WON'T BE EXACTLY 275 MILLION.
BUT THAT'S IN THE BALLPARK.

Steve says HOW MUCH OF THAT HAS
BEEN PAID OUT ALREADY?

Jim says THEY PAID OUT 270 MILLION
PAID OUT.
ANOTHER 5 OR 10 MILLION dollars TO PAY OUT.
THE REST WILL BE MORE, IT'S
GOING TO BE INCLUDED IN OUR
ELECTRICITY BILLS 20 YEARS.
WE PRESENT VALUED THAT BACK TO
TODAY'S DOLLARS.
SO A BIG CHUNK IS GOING TO BE
PAID BY THE TAXPAYERS.
THAT'S WHERE THE 190 MILLION dollars COME.
THE GOVERNMENT SAID WE'RE GOING
TO HAVE 190 MILLION dollars PAID BY THE
TAXPAYERS.
ANYTHING OVER AND ABOVE THAT IS
GOING TO BE PAID BY YOU AND I,
THE ELECTRICITY RATEPAYER'S.

Steve says THE LIBERAL MINISTER
OF ENERGY SAID 190 MILLION dollars.
YOU SAID 275 MILLION dollars.
IN THE COURSE OF YOUR
INVESTIGATION, DID YOU FIND ANY
EVIDENCE THAT SUGGESTED THAT THE
LIBERALS KNOWINGLY LOW BALLED
THE COST OF THIS?

A panel pops up that reads “Jim McCarter. Auditor General of Ontario, 2003-2013. Prior to being appointed as Auditor General, he served as Assistant Provincial Auditor. Former Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Internal Auditor, Ontario.”

Jim says PROBABLY THE BEST WAY I CAN
ANSWER THAT IS THAT, I DON'T
KNOW - IT WAS THE ONTARIO POWER
AUTHORITY MANAGING THIS.
THEY HAD ALL THE NUMBERS.
AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY TOLD
THE MINISTER OF ENERGY.
WHAT THEY TOLD THE MINISTRY OF
ENERGY.
WHAT I DO KNOW IN EARLY JANUARY
LAST YEAR WHEN THE MINISTER SAID
IT WAS 190 MILLION dollars.
WE KNOW THE OPA KNEW AT THAT
TIME THEY HAD HARD PAYMENTS TO
THE HEDGE FUND.
THEY PAID SUPPLIERS.
THEY HAD PAID 265 MILLION dollars.
270 MILLION dollars.
GOING TO HAVE THOSE PAYMENTS.

Steve says WHETHER THEY TOLD THE
MINISTER...

Jim says MINISTER, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY
TOLD THE MINISTER.
THEY KNEW THAT.
MAYBE THEY FELT THE SAVINGS
WOULD BE BIGGER THAN THEY WERE.
WE DO KNOW THEY DID KNOW THAT
WHEN THE MINISTER MADE THE
ANNOUNCEMENT.

Steve says THROUGH THE COURSE OF
YOUR TEN YEARS YOU TRIED TO,
WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO SAY THIS.
EXPAND THE MANDATE OF THE
AUDITOR GENERAL'S OFFICE TO SEE
WHETHER WE GOT VALUE FOR THE
MONEY EXPENDED.
I WONDER WHETHER PART OF YOUR
MANDATE FOR THIS STUDY WAS TO
SAY WHETHER IT WAS APPROPRIATE
FOR THE PREMIER TO HAVE
CANCELLED THIS IN THE DYING DAYS
OF AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN TO SAVE
SEATS IN MISSISSAUGA?

Jim says I THINK IN HINDSIGHT, I THINK
ALL THREE PARTIES WERE BASICALLY
SAID WE WOULD HAVE CANCELLED THE
MISSISSAUGA POWER PLANT.
I THINK THE PREMIER, THE
GOVERNMENT HAS SAID I WISH WE
WOULD HAVE DONE THIS, RECOGNIZED
THIS SOONER.
BUT, AGAIN, IT CLEARLY WAS A
POLITICAL DECISION.
EVERYBODY RECOGNIZED IT WAS NOT
THE BUREAUCRACY.
IT WAS A POLITICAL DECISION.
THEY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT.
TO SOME EXTENT I GUESS FROM THE
AUDITOR'S PERSPECTIVE WE DON'T
WEIGH IN ON WHAT'S A GOOD POLICY
OR BAD POLICY.
WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE GREEN ENERGY.
SO IT'S NOT UP TO THE AUDITOR TO
SAY GREEN ENERGY IS GOOD OR BAD.
IT'S FOR US TO SAY HERE'S WHAT
IT COSTS.

Steve says THE PROVINCIAL BUDGET
COMES OUT TOMORROW.
DO YOU WANT YOUR REPORT ON THE
MISSISSAUGA GAS PLANT TO BE
INFLUENTIAL IN THAT BUDGETARY THING?

Jim says IT'S HARD TO SAY HOW IT WILL
IMPACT THE BUDGET.
I THINK WHAT THE GOVERNMENT SAID
WE HAVE TAKEN WHAT THEY THINK
ARE THE COST TO THE TAXPAYERS.
190 MILLION dollars.
A FIGURE FOR OAKVILLE, 40 MILLION.
WE'RE LOOKING AT OAKVILLE
BECAUSE THE PREMIER WROTE TO US
SHORTLY AFTER SHE WAS ELECTED AS
THE LEADER.
ASKING US TO HAVE A LOOK AT THE
OAKVILLE.

Steve says IT'S IN THE GOING TO
BE 40 EITHER, IS IT?

Jim says WHO KNOWS, STEVE.
ASK ME IN THREE, FOUR MONTHS.

Steve says OK.
OK.
I WANT TO BROADEN AND TALK ABOUT
YOUR CAREER.
ONTARIO POLITICAL HISTORY AS A
RESULT OF SOME OF THE WORK YOU
HAVE DONE.
FOR EXAMPLE, YOU INVESTIGATED ORNGE.
AIR AMBULANCE SITUATION.
AND I WANT TO KNOW HOW EASY OR
HARD WAS IT FOR YOU AS THE
AUDITOR TO GET THE INFORMATION
YOU NEEDED SO THAT YOU COULD
GIVE THE PUBLIC THE INFORMATION
IT NEEDED?

The caption changes to "Defining moments."

Jim says THAT'S INTERESTING YOU PICK
THAT HAD ONE.
I WOULD HAVE TO SAY IN MY TEN
YEARS AS THE AUDITOR GENERAL, WE
HAVE DONE I'M GUESSING 150 OF
THESE AUDITS.
CALL IT THE MOST PROBLEM WITH
GETTING INFORMATION, REALLY
GETTING ACCESS TO EVERYTHING.
THEY REFUSED TO GIVE US ACCESS
TO A NUMBER OF THINGS.
WE REPORT THAT HAD.
I WOULD HAVE TO SAY ORNGE IS
PROBABLY TOP OF MY LIST.
WE PERSEVERED.
AT THE END OF THE DAY WE HAD A
HARD-HITTING REPORT.

Steve says WHO IS THE THEY AT
ORNGE WHO WOULDN'T GIVE YOU WHAT
YOU NEEDED?

Jim says SENIOR MANAGEMENT LED BY THE C.E.O.
DR. CHRIS MAZZA.
AND IT WAS VERY MUCH - THEY
TOOK A LEGALISTIC APPROACH.
AS TO, YOU KNOW, EVERY TIME WE
WERE ASKING FOR A DOCUMENT OR
ASKING TO SEE A MARKETING
AGREEMENT, THEY WOULD CHECK WITH
THEIR LAWYERS.
BE BRINGING THEIR LAWYERS.
ALMOST A TEAM OF LAWYERS INTO
MEETING.
WE FIND THAT UNUSUAL.
AND FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, WHEN MY
STAFF TELLS ME THAT, IT'S LIKE
WAVING THE RED FLAG AT THE BULL.
I'M PAYING MORE ATTENTION TO
THAT FILE.
I'M WALKING DOWN THE HALL A
COUPLE OF TIMES A WEEK WANTING
TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING.
IT DID THE REVERSE IMPACT OF
WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE LIKED IT TO
BE DONE.
IT WAS A COMPLEX AUDIT.

Steve says THEY RAN THAT LIKE IT
WAS A PRIVATE COMPANY.
WOULD THAT DIFFERENCE IN
INTERPRETATION AS TO WHAT THEY
WERE ACCOUNT FOR THEIR
SECRETNESS?

Jim says IN THEIR EYES, PERHAPS THE
EYES OF THE BEHOLDER, THEY FELT,
YES, WE'RE INDEPENDENT.
WE LOOKED AT IT.
LISTEN, YOU'RE BEING 100 percent FUNDED
BY THE TAXPAYERS.
YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO MAKE
SURE YOU'RE SPENDING THE
TAXPAYER MONEY COST EFFECTIVELY.
WE HAD A PRETTY STRONG OPINION
ON THAT.
WE ALSO, THERE'S BEEN HEARINGS,
STILL HEARINGS GOING ON AT THE
STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC
ACCOUNTS.
I KNOW THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
COMMITTEE MEMBERS ARE CONCERNED
AS WE WERE, ABOUT WHETHER THE
BOARD, DID YOU GUYS TAKE,
UNDERTAKE YOUR FIDUCIARY RESPOND
AND DID YOU DO THE JOB YOU WERE
DOING OVERSEEING THESE PEOPLE?

Steve says ONE OF THE OTHER
BIGGIES WAS LOOKING INTO
EHEALTH.
WE HEARD THE ALLEGATION, WE PUT
A BILLION DOLLARS IN AND IT WAS BLOWN.
THREE YEARS LATER, DID WE BLOW A
BILLION DOLLARS ON eHEALTH?

Jim says I HAVE A SIMILAR ANSWER I HAD
IN 2009.
WE CERTAINLY DID NOT GET VALUE
FOR MONEY FOR AT LEAST HUNDREDS
OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
I THINK THE SAME CONCLUSION
HOLDS TRUE TODAY.
THEY HAVE GONE OFF AND STARTED
TO DEVELOP A PWAOEUBS DIABETES .
WE DIDN'T GET A LOT OF VALUE FOR
A BILLION DOLLARS.
WE GOT SOME.
OF DOLLARS NOT WELL SPENT.

Steve says ORNGE AND eHEALTH
WERE NOT, THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
THEY'RE AGENCIES OF THE GOVERNMENT.
IF YOU LIKE ONE STEP REMOVED.
YOU THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER
AUDITED ACTUAL MINISTRIES WITHIN
THE GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO.
WHO IS EASIER TO GET INFORMATION
OUT OF?

Jim says I WOULD SAY PROBABLY DEPENDS
ON THE AUDITEE.
NORMALLY DEPUTY MINISTERS ARE
USED TO DEALING WITH US.
WE'RE COMING IN.
AND SO MOST OF THE DEPUTIES I
KNOW WELL NOW.
THEY KNOW IF THEY SEE IN THEIR
CALL DISPLAY, JIM McCARTER,
IT'S NOT USUALLY GOOD NEWS.
I WOULD SAY ORNGE WAS A RARE
CIRCUMSTANCE.
OF THE 150 AUDITS, NO MORE THAN
TEN I HAVE HAD CHALLENGES
GETTING REASONABLE ACCESS TO
INFORMATION.
MAYBE EIGHT OR TEN.

Steve says GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS
GET THAT YOU'RE GOING IN THERE
AND LOOKING AT WHAT THEY DO IS
PART OF THE DEAL.
IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?

Jim says YEAH.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, I WOULD
HAVE TO SAY THEY HAD A VERY -
LAST WEEK THEY HAD A RETIREMENT
RECEPTION FOR ME AT THE
LEGISLATURE IN MY CLOSING
REMARKS, AFTER THE SPEAKERS SAID
NICE THINGS ABOUT THE AUDITOR,
WHICH IS UNUSUAL.
THERE'S A NUMBER OF DEPUTY
MINISTERS THERE.
I DID SAY THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF
COMMUNITY, WE DON'T ALWAYS
AGREE.
THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT HAPPY TO
SEE ME.
RESPECT THE ROLE WE HAVE TO
PLAY.
I THINK THEY WOULD PROBABLY
AGREE AT THE END OF THE DAY IT'S
PROBABLY A USEFUL ROLE.
AT THE END OF THE DAY THE
AUDITOR MADE GOOD
RECOMMENDATIONS, WE'RE PROBABLY
RUNNING OUR PROGRAMS BETTER.

Steve says IN FAIRNESS TO THEM,
WHEN YOU SHOW UP, AS YOU SAY
IT'S NOT WITH GOOD NEWS.
YOU'RE THERE TO TELL THEM HOW TO
DO THEIR JOBS BETTER.
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF YOUR
RECOMMENDATIONS DO YOU THINK
EVENTUALLY GET PICKED UP AND
IMPLEMENTED?

Jim says MY SENSE WOULD BE PROBABLY
THREE-QUARTERS FULLY
IMPLEMENTED.
SOME OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS
THEY'RE COMPLEX.
THEY COULD TAKE REALLY A NUMBER
OF YEARS TO IMPLEMENT FULLY.
I WOULD SAY THERE'S ANOTHER 15
OR 20 percent THAT GET IMPLEMENTED.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND THERE'S
PROBABLY 5 percent THAT MAYBE DON'T GET
IMPLEMENTED.
I GUESS I WOULD BE CONCERNED IF
EVERYONE GET IMPLEMENTED.
I REALLY DO WANT THE DEPUTY TO
SEE STAND BACK AND WILL SAY
AUDITOR, WE HAVE TO ASSESS THE
PROS AND CONS OF THIS.
THAT'S WHAT WE WANT THEM TO DO.
DO A GOOD BUSINESS CASE.
ASSESS THE PROS AND CONS.
INSTEAD OF GOING THIS WAY,
THEY'LL ZIG THAT WAY A BIT.
AT THE END OF THE DAY WE HAVE
HAD GOOD SUCCESS.
THE OTHER BIG BENEFIT I HAVE IS
I HAVE THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
AND THEY CALL THE DEPUTIES IN OR
UNIVERSITY PRESIDENTS OR
HOSPITALS IN FOR A HEARING.
THAT HAS HOW SHOULD I SAY AN
ENCOURAGING EFFECT IN GETTING
THEM TO IMPLEMENT
RECOMMENDATIONS.

Steve says THEY GRILL THEM ON CAMERA.

Jim says They do and THAT'S HELPFUL TO HAVE A STRONG
LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE BACKING US UP.

Steve says I WANT TO ASK YOU
ABOUT, I GUESS THIS HAPPENED ON YOUR WATCH.
WHEN DALTON MCGUINTY TOOK OVER
IN 2003, HE PASSED A NEW LAW.
HIS GOVERNMENT PASSED A NEW LAW
SAYING THAT BEFORE EVERY
ELECTION, THE AUDITOR GENERAL
HAS TO LOOK AT THE BOOKS AND
BASICALLY SIGN OFF ON THE
VERACITY OF THE PROVINCE'S
FISCAL POSITION.
IS THAT A POWER YOU WANTED?

Jim says IT GOES FURTHER THAN THAT.
THEY BASICALLY COME OUT WITH
WHAT THEY THINK THE SURPLUS OR
DEFICIT IS GOING TO BE FOR THE
CURRENT FISCAL YEAR.
THEY HAVE TO PROJECT IT TWO
YEARS IF THE FUTURE.
SAYING WE THINK THIS IS THE
STATE OF THE FISCAL NATION.
I REMEMBER WHEN THE MINISTER
PHONED ME UP.
AND SAID WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT
THIS, JIM.
NORMALLY WE AUDITORS WERE
CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE.
WE LIKE TO AUDIT THINGS THAT
HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED.
IN THIS CASE WE'RE OPINING ON
THE FUTURE.
WHAT I SAID TO HIM.
MINISTER, AS LONG AS WE CAN WORD
IT THAT WE'RE OPINING ON THE
REASONABLENESS.
I THINK IT'S A GREAT
TO COME OUT BEFORE THE ELECTION
AND TELL THE PUBLIC THIS IS
WHERE WE STAND.
I THINK THEY FELT, NOBODY IS
GOING TO BELIEVE US.
WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IS HAVE
THE AUDITOR GENERAL LOOK AT IT.
IT'S A GREAT ACCOUNTABILITY
MEASURE.

Steve says IS IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR
YOU FOR GOVERNMENTS TO FUDGE THE
BOOKS ON THE EVE OF AN ELECTION?

Jim says IT'S MORE DIFFICULT.

Steve says NOT IMPOSSIBLE THOUGH?

Jim says THEY CAN FUDGE IT A BIT.
BUT IF THEY GET OUT TOO FAR.
LIKE ON THE LAST PREELECTION REVIEW.
WE SAID REVENUES ARE REASONABLE.
COULD THEY HAVE 1 tenth OF A
PERCENT HIGHER.
MIGHT HAVE.
ON THE EXPENDITURE SIDE, THE
WORDS WERE PIE IN THE SKY IN THE
SENSE IT WAS TOO AGGRESSIVE.
WHAT THEY WERE COMING OUT AND
SAYING HERE'S HOW WE'RE GOING TO
CUT EXPENSES.
SO I THINK IT'S JUST GOOD
INFORMATION FOR THE PUBLIC.
YOU HAVE TO GIVE THEM CREDIT FOR
GIVING THIS INFORMATION TO THE
PUBLIC AND PUT IT OUT THERE.
THEY HAVE TO WAIT TO SEE WHAT
THE AUDITOR IS GOING TO SAY.

Steve says AFTER BEING IT'S
SPENDING WATCHDOG FOR TEN YEARS,
YOU WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT
GOVERNMENT SPENDS OUR TAX
DOLLARS MORE CAREFULLY,
INTELLIGENTLY, WISELY THAN TEN
YEARS AGO.

Jim says THERE ARE A NUMBER OF
PROGRAMS I HAVE TO SAY WE HAVE
SEEN AN IMPROVEMENT.
THE ONE AREA I INDICATED MY
TENTH ANNUAL REPORT I TABLED IN
DECEMBER.
THE ONE THING THEY NEED TO DO A
BETTER JOB IS ON MAJOR BIG
DOLLAR DECISIONS.
THEY NEED TO DO WHAT I CALL
DOING THEIR HOMEWORK.
THEY NEED TO DO UNDERLYING AM
SIS.
A BUSINESS CASE.
GET THE DATA SO YOU'RE MAKING A
DECISION BASED ON HARD
INFORMATION.
AND GO FORWARD BASIS, THAT WOULD
BE IT.

Steve says LET'S PLAY TAPE FOR
SOMEBODY YOU KNOW.
HERE'S SHEILA FRASER WHO WAS THE
AUDITOR AGAIN OF CANADA.
SPONSORSHIP SCANDAL WAS UNVEILED
ON HER WATCH.
AND SHE BECAME A SUPERSTAR IN
THE PUBLIC'S MIND BECAUSE OF HER
WATCHING THE PUBLIC PURSE.

Jim says SHE DID.

Steve says LET'S PLAY THIS TAPE.

A clip plays on screen with the caption "Sheila Fraser. The Agenda, May 17, 2011."
In the clip, Sheila talks to Steve in the studio. She’s in her late fifties, with short white hair. She wears glasses, a beige blazer and a black blouse.

She says THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW
OCCASIONS WHERE ACTUALLY WE
THOUGHT THE AUDITS WERE POSITIVE.
AS YOU KNOW PROBABLY BETTER THAN
I, POSITIVE STORIES DON'T GET
HEADLINES WERE.

Steve says WHICH ONES?

Sheila says THERE WERE A NUMBER.
ONE ON IMMIGRATION CONTROLS.
AND YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A SMALL
LITTLE PIECE IN THERE ABOUT HOW
THEY NEEDED TO DO MORE WORK ON
MEDICAL SURVEILLANCE OF PEOPLE
COMING INTO THE COUNTRY.
TO US IT WAS A MINOR, A LESS
IMPORTANT ISSUE.

Steve says A BIG DEAL FOR OTHERS.

The clip ends.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU WHETHER
YOUR WATCH.
THE MEDIA MAY HAVE TAKEN
SOMETHING YOU REPORTED.
AND REALLY TORQUE IT HAD UP AND
MADE SOMETHING OUT OF IT THAT
WASN'T COMPLETELY THERE.

The caption changes to "Impact."

Jim says I WOULD HAVE TO SAY FOR THE
MOST PART I DEAL WITH THE
QUEEN'S PARK MEDIA.
AND I HAVE TO SAY OVER THE YEARS
I FIND THAT THEY REFLECT WHAT I
TELL THEM.
I THINK THEY DO A GOOD JOB.
ADMITTEDLY, THE ADJECTIVES
SOMETIMES THEY USE.
SEEMS EVERY AUDITOR'S REPORT IS
A SCATHING SCATHING REPORT.
THE GENERAL CONTEXT, MAIN
MESSAGE I THINK THEY DO A GOOD
JOB OF COMMUNICATING IT FAIRLY.
I WOULD AGREE WITH SHEILA
THOUGH.
EVERY YEAR AT MY PRESS
CONFERENCE, TWO-THIRDS OF THE
WAY THROUGH.
THE GOVERNMENT DOES GOOD THINGS.
I ALWAYS RHYME OFF FIVE.
STEVE, IT'S LIKE AS SOON AS I
SAY THIS, I'M GOING TO TELL YOU
FIVE GOOD THINGS.
EYES ROLL.
PENS GO DOWN.
THEY WAIT UNTIL THE AUDITOR IS
FINISHED WITH THAT.

Steve says GOOD NEWS DOESN'T GET
REPORTED.
LET ME QUOTE A COUPLE OF THE
GUYS YOU KNOW ALONG THE WAY.

A quote appears on screen, under the title “On McCarter’s style.” The quote reads “Unlike Ontario’s Ombudsman, André Marin, Auditor-General Jim McCarter does not have a habit of slapping attention-grabbing titles on his work.”
Quote by Adam Radawanski, The Globe and Mail, June 29, 2011.

Steve says ALLEN CARTER WRITING
TWO WEEKS AGO FOR GLOBAL NEWS
ON-LINE ABOUT YOUR DECADE OF
SERVICE SAID THIS...

Another quote appears on screen, under the title “On McCarter’s style.” The quote reads “Each time his deep knowledge and even tone transformed a scandal into a shaming by virtue of his integrity and refusal to lower himself to cheap shots.”
Quote by Alan Carter, Global News, April 16, 2013.

Steve says WE HAVE HAD ANDRE ON
THIS PROGRAM AND LOTS OF PEOPLE
TALK ABOUT THE KIND OF JOB HE DOES.
HE DOES KIND OF, HOW DO YOU WANT
TO CHARACTERIZE IT,
MR. McCARTER THE WAY HE DOES
WHAT HE DOES, VERSUS HOW YOU DO
WHAT YOU DO.

Jim says EACH OFFICER DOES THE BEST
WAY THEY SEE FIT.
ANDRE, AND I KNOW ANDRE FAIRLY WELL.
HE HAS HIS STYLE.
I PROBABLY HAVE A DIFFERENT
STYLE THAN ANDRE.
IT'S HOW EACH OF US APPROACH THE JOB.

Steve says WOULD YOU SAY HE GOES
OVER THE TOP IN A WAY YOU DON'T?

Jim says I THINK so.

Steve says YOU'RE BEING CAREFUL.
SUCH A NICE GUY.

Jim says I THINK PROBABLY HE'S A
LITTLE MORE WILLING TO BE MORE,
HOW WOULD I SAY?
MEDIA SAVVY.
I'M PROBABLY FAIRLY, YOU KNOW WHAT.
ABOUT PUTTING THING IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT.
YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE THE STORY
IS NOT ABOUT YOU.
THE STORY IS ABOUT THE STORY.

Steve says THE ALLEGATION OF HIM
HE'S A MEDIA SHOWOFF IN A WAY
YOU'RE NOT.
AND THEREFORE YOU HAVE ADDED
CREDIBILITY.
YOU WANT TO SIGN ON TO THAT?

Jim says MY SENSE IS THAT I THINK THE
REASON THAT VERY OFTEN IT SEEMS
TO ME EVERY TIME A TOPICAL ISSUE
COMES UP.
WHETHER IT'S THE POWER PLANTS.
ONTARIO NORTH LAND.
RACETRACK.
UP THAT'S A HIGH PROFILE THING,
THE FIRST CALL IN THE
LEGISLATURE IS GET THE AUDITOR
GENERAL IN THERE.
WHAT I'M FINDING TOO.
OFTEN IT'S NOT JUST THE TWO
OPPOSITION PARTIES THAT WILL
BUT OFTEN THE GOVERNMENT IS
COMING ON SIDE.
AND I'M HOPEFUL WHAT IT IS AT
LEAST WE'RE GOING TO GET AN
OBJECTIVE, FAIR REPORTING FROM
THE AUDITOR GENERAL.
WE MAY NOT LIKE WHAT HE HAS TO
SAY.
WE MAY LIKE WHAT HE HAS TO SAY.
THAT'S TYPICALLY IN THE EYE OF
THE BEHOLDER.
AT THE ENDS OF THE DAY WE'LL GET
A FAIR REPORT.
NO GRAND STANDING.
WHAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE,
275 MILLION dollars GOT YOU.

Steve says WE HAVE A MINUTE LEFT.
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO NOW?

The caption changes to "Theagenda.tvo.org"

Jim says I AM 61.
ONE THING I'M NOT GOING TO DO.
A COUPLE OF FIRMS SAID WOULD YOU
BE INTERESTED IN DOING
CONSULTING WORK FOR US.
I'M CONCERNED ABOUT DOING
ANYTHING PARTISAN.
BECAUSE WE DO SO MUCH WORK IN
THE OFFICE ACROSS THE BROADER
SECTOR, HOSPITALS, UNIVERSITIES,
I'M NOT GOING TO DO CONSULTING WORK.
IF THERE'S SOMETHING THAT'S
INTERPROVINCIAL OR OUT OF
PROVINCE I MIGHT THINK ABOUT IT.
NO FULL TIME JOB.
I HAVE A COMMITTEE I'M DOING
WITH THE CHARTERED ACCOUNTANTS
INSTITUTE.
ONE OF THE THINGS SHEILA FRASER
SAID OVER BREAKFAST, SHE'S
SERVING ON A COUPLE OF BOARDS OF
DIRECTORS.
INTERESTING, JIM.
SHE SAID YOU MIGHT WANT TO LOOK INTO.
FOR THE FIRST COUPLE OF MONTHS
I'M GOING TO DO TRAVELLING.
JUST HAVE SOME FREE TIME.
BUT EVERYONE I TALK TO
McCARTER, YOU HAVE GONE AT
SUCH A PACE, YOU'RE GOING TO
FIND AFTER THREE, FOUR MONTHS,
MAYBE I SHOULD BE DOING
SOMETHING.
I GUESS WE'LL SEE WHERE IT GOES, STEVE.

Steve says MIGHT BE AN ELECTION IN THE
PROVINCE SOON.
WHY DON'T YOU RUN?

Jim says PEOPLE HAVE MENTIONED THAT TO
ME TOO.

Steve says AND?

Jim says AS I SAID, I HAVE TO BE
CAREFUL.
I HAVE BEEN NON PARTISAN.
THAT WOULD BE A PARTISAN
DECISION.

Steve says IT WOULD INDEED.
FEELINGS AT ALL?

Jim says AS A MATTER OF FACT, I
PROBABLY SHOULDN'T ADMIT THIS.
BUT I WILL.
I DON'T EVEN VOTE DURING THE
ELECTIONS.
I DON'T VOTE IN THE FEDERAL OR
PROVINCIAL ELECTIONS.
THE REASON BEING IS I REALLY DO
WANT TO BE NON PARTISAN.
SO I DON'T EVEN EXERCISE MY
DEMOCRATIC RIGHT.
YOU COULD ARGUE BOTH SIDES OF THAT.
THAT'S MY VIEW.

Steve says GUESS WHAT?
NEXT ELECTION, YOU WON'T HAVE
THIS JOB YOU USED TO HAVE.
SO YOU CAN VOTE.
TELL US NOW, KATHLEEN WYNNE, TIM
HUDAK, ANDREA HORWATH, WHO ARE
YOU GOING TO VOTE FOR?

Jim says I GUESS I WOULD ASSESS THEIR
POLICIES, SEE WHICH ONE IS CLOSE
TO MY PERSONAL VIEWS.
HOW IS THAT FOR A NON ANSWER?

Steve says JIM McCARTER, THANK
YOU FOR SPENDING TIME WITH US.
CONGRATULATIONS ON A GOOD RUN AS
A.G. OF ONTARIO.

The caption changes to "The Agenda with Steve Paikin. Weeknights at 8 on TVO and Theagenda.tvo.org"

Jim says IT'S BEEN GOOD OVER THE
YEARS STEVE, THANKS VERY MUCH.

Jim says THANK YOU.

Watch: Jim McCarter: The Exit Interview