Transcript: Lawrence Martin on Jean Chretien | Nov 26, 2003

Allan is in his mid fifties and has light brown hair, and a greying goatee. He wears a black blazer and a white button up shirt.

Allan says I WANT YOU TO FAST
FORWARD 40 OR 50 YEARS.
HOW WILL HISTORIANS LOOK
BACK ON JEAN CHRETIEN?
WILL THEY BE KIND?
WHAT WILL THEY
SEE AS HIS LEGACY?

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Lawrence Martin. Author: ’Iron Man.’”
Lawrence is in his forties and has light brown hair that is greying at the temples. He wears a black suit with a blue button up shirt and red tie.

Lawrence says I THINK THEY'LL BE VERY KIND.
HE LEAVES WITH THE COUNTRY
DOING WELL ECONOMICALLY,
DOING WELL ON
THE UNITY FRONT.
HE LEAVES HAVING MADE A
DECISION ON THE IRAQ WAR,
WHICH IS LOOKING
BETTER BY THE DAY.
HE LEAVES WITH THREE ELECTORAL
VICTORIES, MAJORITIES.
THE ONLY BIG TIME LIBERAL
NEVER TO HAVE LOST
A FEDERAL ELECTION.
YOU KNOW, TRUDEAU LOST ONE,
KING LOST TWO, LAURIER LOST ONE.
THEY ALL LOST.JEAN CHRETIEN IS
THE UNDEFEATED MAN.
AND SO HISTORIANS ALSO LOOK AT
WHAT WAS THE COUNTRY LIKE WHEN
HE CAME TO POWER, WHAT
WAS IT LIKE WHEN HE LEFT.
HE'S MADE BIG ADVANCES.
THESE WILL BE MEASURED
AGAINST HIS DOWNSIDE.
HE'S ONE OF THE MOST
UNINSPIRATIONAL LEADERS
WE EVER HAD.
HE DRAGGED THE COUNTRY THROUGH
THE MUD AFTER PROMISING
A NEW ERA OF INTEGRITY.
HE DID THE VERY OPPOSITE.
AND HE WAS BASICALLY DID
OVERSTAY HIS WELCOME.
SO THOSE ARE THE NEGATIVES.

Allan says POLITICS IS A TOUGH GAME.
AND SURVIVING THAT LONG
REQUIRES SOME SKILL SETS.
I MEAN, EXPLAIN HIS
POLITICAL LONGEVITY.

Lawrence HE REFLECTED CANADA'S
SENSE OF VALUES SO WELL.
WHICH WAS, HE WAS A LITTLE
BIT LEFT OF CENTRE,
BUT HE COVERED A WIDE MAP
IN THE AREA OF THE CENTRE.
HE WAS A GUY WHO HAD NO
PRETENSIONS, YOU KNOW?
PEOPLE HATE OR CANADIANS
DISLIKE SHOW OFF POLITICIANS.
JEAN CHRETIEN WAS THE MOST
HUMBLE LOOKING GUY, WITH
HIS BROKEN DOWN DICTION AND HIS
- WHAT DID CAMP CALL IT? --
DRIVER OF THE GETAWAY
CAR LOOKS ABOUT HIM.
AND HE WAS, YOU KNOW, FOREVER
IN A SITUATION WHICH PEOPLE
DIDN'T EXPECT MUCH OF HIM,
BUT HE WAS DELIVERING.
AND WHEN YOU CAN BE THE
UNDERDOG ALL THE TIME,
IT HELPS YOU A LOT.
I TEND TO THINK, ALSO, YOU KNOW THAT
PEOPLE LIKE HIS TOUGHNESS.
THEY COULD SEE THIS WAS A GUY
WHO WOULD STAND UP FOR THEM.
THIS IS A GUY SORT OF FROM THE
FACTORY FLOOR GOING INTO THE
CABINET AND SAYING, I'M STANDING
UP FOR YOU GUYS DOWN THERE.
AND THERE IS ALWAYS THAT
SENSE WITH JEAN CHRETIEN.

Allan says FOR ALL HIS TOUGHNESS,
HE ALWAYS WAS RELATIVELY
SELF-EFFACING, AT
LEAST ON SOME FRONTS.
HE WOULD JOKE HE WAS NOT
PROFICIENT IN EITHER OF
CANADA'S OFFICIAL LANGUAGE.
THIS LITTLE GUY
FROM SHAWINIGAN.
YOU RAISE SOME DOUBTS WHETHER
THAT HAS WAS TRUE, CERTAINLY
TOWARDS THE END OF HIS CAREER,
WHETHER HE REALLY WAS THAT
HUMBLE, OR HIS BEGINNINGS
WERE THAT MODEST?

Lawrence says WELL, YOU KNOW, HE HAD
ANOTHER SIDE TO HIM.
I THINK, AT ONE TIME, I
COMPARED HIM TO... I SAID HE'S
AN AUTHORITARIAN POPULOUS.
SORT OF A CONTRADICTION
IN TERMS, RIGHT?
ON THE ONE HAND HE'S SORT OF
A NORIEGA FIGURE, AND ON THE
OTHER HAND, HE'S A
LECH WALESA FIGURE.
HE HAD THIS AUTHORITARIAN
STREAK IN HIM.
THIS MEAN, TOUGH SIDE.
HE HAD TO GET HIS WAY.
IT STEMMED FROM, I THINK, YOU
KNOW, AN INFERIORITY COMPLEX
WHICH I ALMOST SEE AS
THE KEY TO JEAN CHRETIEN.
IN THAT THIS IS WHAT HAS
DRIVEN HIM ALL HIS LIFE.
THE KEY TO HIS SUCCESS IS THAT
JEAN CHRETIEN HAS HAD
THIS FEROCIOUS
WILLPOWER TO SUCCEED.
WHERE DOES THAT COME FROM?
WHY DO SOME INDIVIDUALS
HAVE THAT AND SOME DON'T?
WELL, EVER SINCE DAY ONE ON
THE STREETS OF SHAWINIGAN,
THIS GUY WAS LOOKED DOWN UPON,
OR FELT LOOKED DOWN UPON.
BACK THEN IT WAS BECAUSE OF
HIS PHYSICAL DISADVANTAGES
AND HANDICAPS.
LATER IN LIFE IT WAS BECAUSE
OF THE SNOBBERY HE SAW COMING
AT HIM FROM QUEBEC
INTELLECTUALS AND OTHER
INTELLECTUALS BECAUSE HE
WAS LOW BROW IN HIS STYLE,
AND IN HIS DICTION,
AND SO FORTH.
AND FROM DAY ONE, JEAN
CHRETIEN HAS HAD
THIS ATTITUDE IN HIM.
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU GUYS,
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PEOPLE
OUT THERE I AM JUST
AS GOOD AS YOU ARE,
I'M BETTER THAN YOU ARE.
AND HE'S STILL
DOING THAT TODAY.
HE STILL SEES THE
ESTABLISHMENT AS LOOKING DOWN
ON HIM.
WHAT'S PHENOMENAL ABOUT
THIS GUY IS HE IS STILL THE
ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT MAN.

Allan says YET, THIS IS A GUY WHEN HE
LEAVES PUBLIC OFFICE FOR THAT
INTERREGNUM PERIOD, GOES
AND JOINS GORDON CAPITAL,
GETS PAID A MILLION
DOLLARS A YEAR.
HAS A DAUGHTER WHO HAS MARRIED
INTO THE DESMARAIS FAMILY,
WHO CLEARLY MOVES NOW IN THE
HIGHEST CIRCLES OF CANADIAN
SOCIETY AND LIFE.
IS SOME OF THAT A PUT ON?

Lawrence says YOU KNOW, I WAS TALKING TO
ALLAN ROCK A MONTH OR SO AGO,
AND HE SAID, A FUNNY THING, HE
SAID I USED TO INVITE THE GUY
TO COME DOWN TO TORONTO AND
MEET SOME OF THE HIGH ROLLERS
DOWN HERE.
HE SAID CHRETIEN
NEVER LIKED IT.
NEVER WANTED TO DO IT.
AND I SAID, WHY NOT?
HE SAID BECAUSE HE DOESN'T FEEL
COMFORTABLE IN THAT AMBIANCE.
IT'S NOT HIM.
AND IT ISN'T HIM.
AND I GIVE CHRETIEN
CREDIT FOR THAT.
HE'S ALWAYS STUCK TO HIS
VALUES, STREETS OF SHAWINIGAN
VALUES CIRCA 1953.
SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY WE
NEEDED MORE MODERN VALUES
THAN THOSE, BUT THIS IS WHAT
HE BROUGHT TO THE TABLE.
HE'S A VERY OLD-FASHIONED
POLITICIAN AND, IN PAUL MARTIN,
WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A
MUCH MORE MODERN MAN.

Allan says I REMEMBER ONE OF MY OLD
MENTORS IN POLITICS SAYING,
YOU KNOW, A CAUCUS
CAN'T REALLY HELP YOU,
BUT IT CAN
REALLY HURT YOU.
YOU ATTRIBUTE A LOT OF THE
DIFFICULTY CHRETIEN HAD WITHIN
HIS OWN PARTY BY NOT LISTENING
TO THE PARTY, BY BEING
IMPERIOUS, BY CONTROLLING
EVERYTHING HIMSELF.
HIS SUCCESSOR, MARTIN, HAS
MADE THIS BIG COMMITMENT TO
THE DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT.
DOES HE RUN THE RISK OF HAVING
THE PENDULUM SWING TOO FAR ON
HIM AND HAVING THAT CAUCUS
KIND OF BE RUNNING IN ALL
DIRECTIONS AT THE SAME TIME?
I MEAN, THERE'S AN ARGUMENT
YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME CONTROL
OVER THAT CAUCUS.

Lawrence says WELL, YOU DO.
BUT I THINK THERE IS A HUGE
OPENING FOR PAUL MARTIN HERE
TO SANITIZE THE GOVERNMENT,
AND TO MODERNIZE THIS
DEMOCRACY, AND TO
MODERNIZE THIS PARTY.
AS I SAID, JEAN CHRETIEN IS A
GUY WHO HIS MIND WAS MADE UP
ON EVERYTHING 40 YEARS AGO.
PAUL MARTIN IS A WORK IN
PROGRESS, BY COMPARISON.
WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHERE
HE'S GOING TO GO, BUT I THINK
THERE IS ONE COMMITMENT ON HIS
SIDE OF THE PARTY, AND THAT
IS TO BRING IN THIS NEW ERA
OF INTEGRITY, WHICH JEAN
CHRETIEN WAS SUPPOSED TO
BRING IN FOLLOWING THE TORY
YEARS WHEN THERE WERE ALL KINDS
OF PROBLEMS ON THAT FRONT,
BUT WASN'T ABLE TO DO IT.

Allan says BACK ON MARTIN-CHRETIEN.
DO YOU BUY THE ARGUMENT THAT
ONE OF THE REASONS CHRETIEN
WAS SO LOATHE TO STEP ASIDE
WAS BECAUSE HE REALLY HAD
GRAVE DOUBTS ABOUT WHETHER
MARTIN WAS TOUGH ENOUGH FIRST.
I MEAN, HE'S A NOTORIOUS
DITHERER ON DECISION MAKING,
AND CHRETIEN SAW HIMSELF
AS A TOUGH DECISION MAKER.
AND, IN PARTICULAR, HE
WAS TOO SOFT ON QUEBEC.
THAT HE WAS DANGEROUS.
THAT HE WOULD LET
SEPARATISM RISE UP AGAIN.

Lawrence says YEA I SAW THREE REASONS FOR THE
WHOLE ANIMOSITY TOWARD MARTIN.
ONE WAS ON THE POLICY FRONT,
AS YOU SAY, PARTICULARLY IN
REGARD TO QUEBEC, THAT HE
WOULD GO SOFT ON SECESSIONISM.
SECONDLY, THERE WAS THIS, YOU
KNOW, JEAN CHRETIEN SAW THE
WORLD IN THE OLD-FASHIONED
OPTIC ABOUT THE MASSES VERSUS
THE CLASSES, AND HE SAW PAUL
MARTIN AS COMING FROM, YOU
KNOW, THE BAY STREET HIGH
ROLLER, HIGH BANKER,
MONEY CLASS AREA.
SO THERE WAS THAT NATURAL
ANIMOSITY BUILT IN,
AT LEAST IN JEAN
CHRETIEN'S MIND.
THIS GUY IS FROM
THAT OTHER SIDE.

Allan says HE'S
THEM.

Lawrence says YEAH.
AND, THIRDLY, IT WAS JUST THAT
MARTIN WAS AFTER HIS JOB.
AND TOO AGGRESSIVELY
SO IN CHRETIEN'S MIND.
SO THOSE THREE
FACTORS WERE KEY.

Allan says IT'S BEEN SAID THAT CHRETIEN
BENEFITED TREMENDOUSLY FROM
THE LOW EXPECTATIONS THAT HE
ALWAYS SEEMED TO SET OUT THERE.
AND NOW WE HAVE A NEW PRIME
MINISTER WHO SEEMS TO BE
CURSED BY INCREDIBLY
HIGH EXPECTATIONS.
I MEAN, WHAT DO YOU SEE OF THE
FOLLOW-UP TO JEAN CHRETIEN,
THE MARTIN YEARS?

Lawrence says YOU KNOW WHAT, I THINK TO
CHRETIEN'S CREDIT, HE'S HAD A
TERRIFIC LAST YEAR IN OFFICE.
NOW, WE'VE CRITICIZED HIM FOR
RUNNING FOR THAT THIRD TERM.
THE ONLY REASON BEING TO
SPITE PAUL MARTIN, RIGHT?
BUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS THIS IS
A GUY, THE ETERNAL COMBATANT.
WHEN HE WAS PUSHED OUT OF THE
PARTY, FORCED INTO ANNOUNCING
HIS RETIREMENT DATE, THIS
LIBERATED JEAN CHRETIEN IN
A WAY HE HEAD NEVER
BEEN LIBERATED BEFORE.
BECAUSE THIS IS A GUY WHO'S
ALWAYS THINKING OF THE NEXT
ELECTION BELL.
HE'S ALWAYS THINKING IN TERMS
OF POLITICS, AS OPPOSED TO
POLICY, RIGHT?
POLITICS IS HIS
PRIORITY, NOT POLICY.
FINALLY, WHEN HE GETS HIS
LEAVING PAPERS, AND HE
ANNOUNCES HE IS GOING TO BE
LEAVING IN SUCH AND SUCH AMOUNT
OF TIME, THERE IS NO ELECTION
TO FACE, HE'S LIBERATED.
HE CAN SUDDENLY THINK, NOW I
DON'T HAVE TO FIGHT ANY MORE
BATTLES, I BETTER PUT A
LEGISLATIVE AGENDA OUT THERE.

Allan says AND QUITE AN IMPRESSIVE ONE.

Lawrence says WHAT HE'S DONE
IN THE LAST YEAR?
YES, YOU ARE RIGHT.
HE'S BROUGHT IN
THE KYOTO ACCORD.
HE DID REACH A HEALTH PACT
WITH THE PROVINCES WHICH
ADDRESSES SOME OF THE
FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEMS.
BRINGS IN AN ELECTORAL FINANCE
REFORM WHICH TAKES POWER AWAY
FROM THE CORPORATIONS
TO FINANCE ELECTIONS.
A LITTLE GUY FROM
SHAWINIGAN, TALKING HERE.
MAKES A HUGE DECISION
ON THE WAR ON IRAQ.I MEAN
WHEN HAS A CANADIAN PRIME
MINISTER EVER GONE UP AGAINST,
NOT ONLY ONE, BUT THE TWO
GREAT TRADITIONAL ALLIES,
GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED
STATES ON A BIG MATTER
OF WAR AND PEACE?
I DON'T THINK EVER.
THE PRIME MINISTER HAD A GREAT
DEAL OF PRESSURE ON HIM
AND, YOU KNOW... AGAIN,
YOU KNOW WHAT HE DID?
ONE PERSON WHO PHONED ME,
THIS GUY WAS IN HOSPITAL, AND
CHRETIEN WAS PHONING HIM TO
CONSOLE HIM, AND THE GUY IN
THE HOSPITAL HE TOLD ME HE FRAMED
THIS DECISION ABOUT THE WAR,
AGAIN, IN THIS CLASSIST OPTIC.
YOU KNOW, THE ESTABLISHMENT
WANTS ME TO GO THIS WAY.
I'VE ALWAYS STOOD UP TO THOSE
GUYS ON BAY STREET, AND THE
AMERICANS, AND SO ON, I AM
GOING TO DO THAT AGAIN ON WAR.
THEY'RE NOT GOING TO PUSH ME.
HE FRAMED IT IN THAT OPTIC.
SO HE MADE THAT DECISION.
AND, YOU KNOW, THE COURTS
PUSHED HIM INTO A DECISION
ON SAME SEX MARRIAGE, WHICH
HE WENT THROUGH WITH.
BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT
AGENDA OF THE LAST YEAR, ALL
THE THINGS HE'S DONE, THAT'S
MORE THAN HE DID IN THE THREE
OR FOUR YEARS BEFORE THAT
WHEN HE WAS FIGHTING
INTERNAL POLITICAL WARS.

Allan says IT RAISES AN INTERESTING
QUESTION, THOUGH, THAT WE
HAVEN'T HEARD MUCH TALK ABOUT.
I MEAN, THE FACT HE HAD THIS
ACTIVIST AGENDA IN THE LAST
YEAR, THE FACT THAT VIRTUALLY
EVERYTHING HE DID WAS REALLY
POPULAR, AND THE FACT, IN
TURN, MANY PEOPLE SAY WOULD
PAUL MARTIN, WHERE
IS HE ON KYOTO?
WHERE IS HE ON
SAME SEX MARRIAGE? WHERE IS HE ON THIS,
WOULD HE HAVE MADE THAT DECISION
TO KEEP US OUT OF IRAQ?
I MEAN, DOES THAT LAST YEAR,
IN SOME WAY, PUT A PALL ON
MARTIN TAKING OVER IN
ANY WAY, DO YOU THINK?

Lawrence says WELL, THE ONE THING IT DOES
IS IT DOESN'T LEAVE HIM WITH
MANY BIG TICKET ITEMS TO
ADDRESS BECAUSE CHRETIEN'S
COVERED OFF QUITE A FEW
OF THEM IN HIS LAST YEAR.
AND WITH MARTIN, THERE'S A LOT
OF DISCUSSION GOING ON NOW
ABOUT THAT VERY QUESTION.
WOULD WE BE IN IRAQ HAD
PAUL MARTIN BEEN IN THERE?
NOW, YOU TALK TO MANY CAUCUS
MEMBERS WHO THINK WE WOULD
HAVE BEEN.
BUT, OF COURSE, THEY MIGHT BE,
YOU KNOW, ON JEAN CHRETIEN'S
SIDE OF THE LEDGER
IN THIS WHOLE BATTLE.
BUT, CERTAINLY, PAUL MARTIN HAS
GOT A MUCH WARMER VIEW OF THE
UNITED STATES AND WHAT OUR
RELATIONSHIP SHOULD BE WITH
THE UNITED STATES, THAN
JEAN CHRETIEN EVER HAD.
ONE OF THE FOUNDING THOUGHTS
OR MOTIVATING THOUGHTS OF
JEAN CHRETIEN WHEN HE CAME TO
POWER, AND HE ENUNCIATED IT IN
HIS FIRST SPEECH IN THE HOUSE
OF COMMONS BACK IN 1963 WAS,
YOU KNOW, THE UNITED STATES
SHALL NOT BE A MODEL
FOR THIS COUNTRY.
AND HE'S PRETTY WELL
STUCK TO THAT, YOU KNOW?
BUT HE'S BEEN, LET'S SAY
REASONABLE ENOUGH, PRAGMATIC
ENOUGH, TO FOLLOW UP ON THE
MULRONEY FREE TRADE AGREEMENT
BECAUSE CHRETIEN HIMSELF IS
A BELIEVER IN LIBERAL TRADE.
BUT ONE OF HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS,
OR WHAT PEOPLE WOULD REGARD AS
AN ACCOMPLISHMENT, IS THAT HE'S
SLOWED DOWN THE INTEGRATIONAL
THRUST OF THE MULRONEY
YEARS SOUTHWARD.
AND MANY THINK THAT PAUL MARTIN
WILL PICK UP MORE ON THAT.
I THINK IT'S A VERY DANGEROUS
AREA FOR PAUL MARTIN TO MOVE IN.
CHRETIEN HAS BEEN ABLE TO
MASTER THE RELATIONSHIP
WITH THE UNITED STATES.
AND HOW YOU MASTER THAT AS
CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER IS BY
NEITHER GETTING TOO CLOSE
OR NEITHER GETTING TOO FAR.
YOU'VE GOT TO RIDE
THAT MIDDLE LINE.

Allan says SO FOR ALL THE TALK OF
MARTIN WANTING TO HAVE CLOSER
RELATIONSHIPS WITH AMERICA,
HE IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE
CAUTIOUS THE SAME
WAY CHRETIEN WAS.

Lawrence says OH, MOST DEFINITELY.

Allan says THE OTHER AREA, POINT OF
DEPARTURE THAT MARTIN IS
MAKING A LOT OF NOISE ABOUT IS
WANTING TO HARMONIZE FEDERAL
PROVINCIAL RELATIONS
TO END THE BICKERING.
AND THAT CHRETIEN HAD
VERY MUCH A TRUDEAUESQUE
PERSPECTIVE OF FEDERALISM AND
THE ROLE OF THE PROVINCES.
WE RECENTLY SAW MARTIN GET
TOGETHER WITH THE PREMIERS.
EVERYTHING LOOKED LOVEY DOVEY.
48 HOURS LATER, RALPH KLEIN
IS SAYING, I DIDN'T AGREE TO
THAT HEALTH COUNCIL BUSINESS.
IS THERE AN ARGUMENT MARTIN
IS GOING TO HAVE EVERY BIT AS
MUCH PROBLEM HAVING BETTER
RELATIONS WITH THE PROVINCES,
AS HE'S GOING TO HAVE WITH
HAVING BETTER RELATIONS
WITH AMERICA?

Lawrence says NO, I THINK PAUL MARTIN
WILL DO BETTER ON THAT SCORE
BECAUSE FUNDAMENTALLY HE'S
MORE OF A DEVOLUTIONIST
IN TERMS OF THE
DEMOCRATIC VALUES.
NOT ONLY IN HIS OWN PARTY, AND
HE'LL SHARE MORE POWERS WITH
THE CAUCUS, HE'LL DEVOLVE MORE
POWERS FROM THE PMO, BUT ALSO
TOWARDS THE PROVINCES, I
THINK THERE WILL BE A MORE
COOPERATIVE SPIRIT FROM A
PAUL MARTIN GOVERNMENT,
THAN FROM AN OLD-FASHIONED
TRADITIONAL, CENTRALIST
LIKE JEAN CHRETIEN WAS.

Allan says IN HIS FAREWELL SPEECH TO THE
LIBERAL CONVENTION, ABOVE AND
BEYOND MAKING IT ABSOLUTELY
CRYSTAL CLEAR WHAT ALL HIS
ACCOMPLISHMENTS WERE, HE
SEEMED TO GO OUT OF HIS WAY TO
ADMONISH AND REMIND THE PARTY
OF THE DANGERS OF THE RIGHT
GAINING MOMENTUM, AND WHAT
THE GREAT TRADITIONS OF THE
LIBERAL PARTY IS AS A
PROGRESSIVE FORCE IN SOCIETY.
FIRST, I'LL ASK YOU TO
SPECULATE A LITTLE BIT.
I MEAN, WERE THOSE WARNINGS
DIRECTED TOWARDS PAUL MARTIN,
DO YOU THINK?
AND, IF SO, DO YOU SEE PAUL
MARTIN HEEDING THAT MESSAGE?

Lawrence says I WOULDN'T SAY THAT PAUL
MARTIN IS GOING TO TACK RIGHT
TOO MUCH.
PAUL MARTIN HAS GOT PRETTY
SMART POLITICAL INSTINCTS,
AS WELL.
I THINK HE WILL, AS I SAY,
HE'S A WORK IN PROGRESS.
HIS MIND ISN'T MADE UP
ON A LOT OF ISSUES YET.
HE STILL- PAUL MARTIN IS A
GUY WHO SEARCHES.
HE'S GOT A VERY, VERY
ACTIVE AND EXPLORATORY MIND.
WE SHOULDN'T TRY AND PREDICT
WHICH WAY PAUL MARTIN IS GOING
TO GO.
CERTAINLY, HE IS FROM
THE ESTABLISHMENT MOULD,
BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S
GOING TO DEFINE HIS FUTURE.

Allan says LAWRENCE MARTIN, I WANT TO
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
IT'S BEEN A REAL PLEASURE.

Lawrence says I ENJOYED IT.
THANK YOU.

Watch: Lawrence Martin on Jean Chretien