Transcript: The Common Sense Revolution | Apr 09, 1995

Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his forties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a checkered brown suit, brown shirt, and no tie.

Steve says OKAY, HERE TO DISCUSS THE
CHANGES IN THE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY ARE TWO MEN WHO HAVE HAD
AN ENORMOUS IMPACT ON THAT
PARTY OVER THE YEARS.
AND THEY ARE DALTON CAMP,

Dalton is in his sixties, clean-shaven, bald with short gray hair on the sides. He is wearing a khaki sweater and a blue shirt.

Steve continues A SENIOR ADVISOR TO PRIME
MINISTERS AND PREMIERS
FROM JOHN DIEFENBAKER TO
BRIAN MULRONEY, AND INCLUDING
THE MAN YOU JUST SAW,
FORMER ONTARIO
PREMIER, BILL DAVIS.

Tom is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He is wearing a black suit, pale blue shirt, and a patterned blue tie.

Steve continues AND THERE'S TOM LONG, FORMER
PRESIDENT OF THE ONTARIO
PC PARTY AND A MAJOR
ARCHITECT OF MIKE HARRIS'
RECENT ELECTION VICTORY.
THANK YOU BOTH FOR
BEING HERE TODAY.
WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

Dalton says PLEASURE.

Steve says Mr. CAMP, FIRST TO
YOU, YOUR VISION
OF PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVISM,
AND DOES THE CURRENT PREMIER
OF ONTARIO REPRESENT IT?

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Dalton Camp. FMR. NAT’L P.C. PRES.”

Dalton says WELL, TWO THINGS I
WANT TO SAY ABOUT THAT.
THE FIRST THING IS THAT I
CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION.
WE HAVE TO GIVE
HIM A CHANCE.
WE'LL FIND OUT.
IF I WERE TO JUDGE BY
SOME OF THE RHETORIC,
I WOULD BE CONCERNED IN
TERMS OF THE TRADITION
OF PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATISM.
AND I THINK I WOULD SAY PETER
LOUGHEED TOLD PETER NEWMAN
THAT THE PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY CAN NEVER
FORGET ITS OBLIGATIONS TO THE
PEOPLE IN SOCIETY WHO HAVE
FALLEN BEHIND, OR FALLEN
OUT OF THE BOAT ALTOGETHER.

Steve asks DO YOU THINK THIS PARTY
IS IN DANGER OF DOING THAT?

Dalton says THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF SABRE
RATTLING AND CLEARING OF THE
THROAT AND RUMBLING.
AND I THINK SOMEWHAT DEMAGOGIC
EXPRESSIONS OF OPINION.
WE MAY GET TO THIS LATER,
BUT I HOPE THAT ANSWERS THE
QUESTION FOR THE
MOMENT ANYWAY.

Steve asks Mr. LONG?
WHAT'S WRONG WITH ANYTHING
THAT WAS JUST SAID?
HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN YOUR
OBLIGATIONS, FOR EXAMPLE,
TO SOCIETY?

The caption changes to “Tom Long. Ontario P.C. Strategist.”

Tom says I DON'T THINK THERE'S A
CONSERVATIVE IN THIS COUNTRY
WHO WOULD DISAGREE WITH WHAT
PETER LOUGHEED HAD TO SAY.
I HAVE GREAT REGARD
FOR THE PREMIER.
I THINK WE ALL WANT TO HELP
THOSE PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP,
BUT I THINK WHAT WE MAY HAVE A
DISAGREEMENT OVER IS HOW YOU
GO ABOUT HELPING THOSE PEOPLE.
I DON'T THINK, TO BE HONEST
WITH YOU, STEVE, THE PEOPLE
WHO ARE HELPING MIKE HARRIS,
I DON'T THINK THEY BELIEVE
IMPOVERISHING THE MIDDLE CLASS
IN ORDER TO FINANCE A WELFARE
SYSTEM THAT HAS TRAPPED
COUNTLESS MILLIONS OF PEOPLE
IN A CYCLE OF DEPENDENCY
THAT HAS DESTROYED THEIR
SELF-ESTEEM, AND HAS
ROBBED THEM OF HELP IS
NECESSARILY COMPASSION.
COMPASSION ISN'T A
THEORETICAL EXERCISE.
IT'S ABOUT CARING
ABOUT HELPING PEOPLE
IN CONCRETE SITUATIONS.
AND THE KINDS OF PEOPLE MIKE
HARRIS HAS BEEN TALKING TO,
WHO REALLY DO WANT WELFARE
REFORM, WHO BELIEVE THE
CURRENT SYSTEM IS BROKEN AND
NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED ARE SAYING
TO THEM, PARTICULARLY THOSE
WHO ARE ON WELFARE, HELP ME.
HELP ME TO BREAK
OUT OF THIS SYSTEM.
THE SYSTEM HAS TRAPPED ME AND
MY FAMILY IN A CYCLE THAT HAS
MEANT THAT WE HAVEN'T THE
SELF-ESTEEM AND SELF-RELIANCE
AND THE TOOLS WE NEED TO
BE PRODUCTIVE CITIZENS.
SO I THINK, IN A WAY, THERE'S
A BIT OF A STRAW MAN BEING
SET UP HERE.
BECAUSE I DO THINK WHAT MIKE
IS DOING, WHAT THE PREMIER IS
DOING, IS MOTIVATED BY A
GREAT SENSE OF DESIRE
TO SEE THAT THE RISING
TIDE LIFTS ALL BOATS.

Steve asks DO YOU HAVE ANY
DOUBTS ABOUT THAT?

Dalton says YEAH, I HAVE SOME DOUBTS.
TO ME, THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION
IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF
ONTARIO IS CONVINCED OF THE
FACT THAT WE HAVE A PREVALENCE
IN ONTARIO, AND I GUESS
EVERYWHERE IN CANADA,
OF WELFARE BUMS AND WELFARE
CHEATERS, AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE
SOUGHT THE WELFARE LIFE AND
ARE CONTENT TO LIVE THAT THE
REST OF THEIR LIVES.
THERE IS OVERWHELMING
EVIDENCE THAT THAT'S WRONG.

Steve says BUT 45 PERCENT OF THE
ELECTORATE SEEM TO AGREE WITH
THAT, IF I CAN READ
INTO THE RESULTS.

Dalton says 45 PERCENT, 55 PERCENT
OF THE ELECTORATE VOTED FOR
NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN?
WHAT DOES THAT PROVE?
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A
SYSTEMIC PROBLEM IN SOCIETY.
AND WHEN YOU SAY, TOM, ABOUT
THE MIDDLE-CLASS, AND SPEAKING
AS ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF IT,
I DON'T BELIEVE THE
MIDDLE-CLASS IS BEING CRUSHED
BECAUSE OF THE BURDEN
OF THE WELFARE STATE.
I THINK IT'S BEING CRUSHED
BY THE FAILURE OF PEOPLE
WHO HAVE MONEY AND
POWER TO SHARE THAT.
I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF
TAX AVOIDANCE GOING ON.
THERE ARE PEOPLE BEING FIRED
IN ORDER TO INFLATE THE VALUE
OF SHARES AND THROWN OUT ON
THE STREETS BY THE THOUSANDS.
THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

Tom says THAT'S AN INTERESTING
THEORY, DALTON.

Dalton says NOT THEORY, IT'S REALITY.

Tom continues LET'S INJECT SOME FACTS
INTO THE DISCUSSION.
IN THE LAST RECESSION, WHEN
Mr. DAVIS WAS PREMIER OF
ONTARIO, OUR TOTAL WELFARE
SPENDING IN THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO WAS A LITTLE
OVER 800 MILLION DOLLARS.
AND I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY
THAT WE HAD A GOVERNMENT
THAT WAS CONSIDERED TO
BE FAIRLY COMPASSIONATE.
I THINK YOU'D PROBABLY
AGREE WITH THAT.
TODAY WE'RE SPENDING OVER
6 BILLION DOLLARS ON WELFARE.
6 BILLION DOLLARS.
AND WHAT HAVE WE
GOTTEN FOR THAT?
LONGER LINE-UPS
AT THE FOOD BANKS.
WE'VE GOT MORE
PEOPLE ON WELFARE.
WE'VE GOT MORE DEMANDS
FOR MORE SOCIAL SERVICES.
THE SYSTEM HAS FAILED, DALTON.
AND IT'S ALL VERY WELL AND
GOOD FOR ALL OF US TO SIT HERE
IN THE STUDIO AND HAVE
A DEBATE ABOUT THIS,
BUT PEOPLE ARE BEING HURT.
AND PARTICULARLY YOUNG PEOPLE.
AND WHAT WE'RE SAYING, THOSE
OF US WHO WANT TO SEE THE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY CHANGE AND
WANT TO SEE THIS PARTY MOVE
IN A NEW DIRECTION IS THAT
THERE HAS TO BE NEW ANSWERS.
WE CAN'T BE TRAPPED
IN THE PAST.
AND WE CAN'T BE TRAPPED BY OUR
OWN SORT OF SENSE OF WHAT OUR
COMPASSION IS IF IT ISN'T
MAKING A POSITIVE DIFFERENCE
IN THE LIVES OF REAL PEOPLE.

Steve says BUT HE'S WORRIED THAT YOU'RE
LOSING YOUR SOUL IN THE PROCESS.

Tom says WELL, YOU SEE, I REALLY
THINK, DALTON, WHAT YOU HAVE
TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE
MOTIVATION BEHIND WHAT MIKE
HARRIS IS DOING, AND THOSE OF
US THAT WANT THE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY TO STAND FOR SOME
FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES LIKE
INDIVIDUAL INITIATIVE AND
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, IS
THAT WE'VE TRIED THE OLD WAY.
WE'VE TRIED THE WAY THAT
PEOPLE WHO AGREE WITH YOU
WOULD LIKE TO SEE US
GO, AND IT'S FAILED.
IT'S BEEN AN ABYSMAL FAILURE.

Dalton says YOUR WAY, THOUGH,
HAS BEEN TRIED BEFORE.

Tom says OUR WAY HAS NOT.

Dalton says OH, YES, OH, YES.
THE ALMS HOUSES AND POOR
HOUSES OF VICTORIAN ENGLAND.

Tom says OH, PLEASE SPARE ME, DALTON.
SPARE ME.

Dalton says THE NOTION -- YOU SAY IT'S
ALL RIGHT FOR YOU AND I TO SIT
HERE, AND SURE, AND TALK ABOUT
THIS ISSUE, BUT LET'S LOOK AT
IT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE
PEOPLE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.
YOU'RE TELLING ME THERE IS A
SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF PEOPLE
OUT THERE WHO ARE ON
WELFARE WHO HAVE A CHOICE.
WHO HAVE CHOICES.

Tom says I'M SAYING THEY DON'T
HAVE CHOICES TODAY.
AND WHAT THE MIKE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT WANTS TO DO --
DALTON, PLEASE.
NO, LET ME
ANSWER YOUR CHARGE.
WHAT MIKE HARRIS HAS SAID IS
THAT WITH WELFARE RATES IN
ONTARIO BEING 30 PERCENT ABOVE
THE AVERAGE OF THE OTHER
PROVINCES IN THE COUNTRY, AND
WITH A SYSTEM THAT DOESN'T
REQUIRE PEOPLE, IF THEY ARE
ABLE-BODIED, TO GO OUT AND
WORK FOR THEIR WELFARE.
WE HAVE TRAPPED PEOPLE
IN A CYCLE OF DEPENDENCY.
WHAT THE PREMIER DID, IF YOU
READ HIS POLICY PROGRAM, IS HE
HAS REDUCED WELFARE BENEFITS
FROM 30-35 PERCENT ABOVE THE
NATIONAL AVERAGE DOWN TO 10
PERCENT ABOVE THE NATIONAL
AVERAGE, BUT HAS GIVEN THOSE
PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD THEIR
BENEFITS REDUCED THE
OPPORTUNITY TO EARN BACK THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND
THE HIGHER LEVEL BY GOING OUT
AND TAKING PART-TIME WORK.

Steve says LET ME JUST STOP YOU THERE.
IS THAT OKAY?
IS THAT ALL RIGHT?

Dalton says SOUNDS GOOD.

Steve says THAT SOUNDS OKAY.
ALL RIGHT.

Tom says BUT LET ME COMPLETE
THE PROGRAM.
BECAUSE I DO THINK, I COULD
BE WRONG, BUT I DOUBT YOU'VE
ACTUALLY READ THE PROGRAM
BASED ON THE COMMENTS
I'VE SEEN IN PRINT.

Dalton says OH, THANKS TO YOU, I'VE
READ QUITE A BIT OF IT.
YOU FAXED MOST OF IT TO ME
DURING THE CAMPAIGN, TOM.
VERY GRATEFUL TO YOU.

Tom says AND WE DID MAKE ATTEMPTS TO
GET TOGETHER WITH YOU SO YOU
COULD MEET SOME OF THE PEOPLE
YOU'VE BEEN WRITING ABOUT,
BUT YOU REJECTED
THAT OPPORTUNITY.
MY POINT TO YOU IS THAT
IN ADDITION TO REDUCING THE
BENEFITS, MIKE HARRIS
HAS ALSO SAID THAT WHAT
WE SHOULD BE DOING, WE HAVE
AN OBLIGATION TO PROVIDE
THESE PEOPLE WITH THE WORK
SKILLS SO THAT THEY CAN STAND
ON THEIR OWN TWO FEET AND
PROVIDE FOR THEMSELVES.
SO WE HAVE TO HAVE A
PROGRESSIVE, CREATIVE
WORKFARE PROGRAM THAT REQUIRES
ABLE-BODIED RECIPIENTS TO GO
OUT AND ACTUALLY WORK FOR
THEIR WELFARE BENEFITS.

Steve says LET ME DRAW YOU OUT THEN
A LITTLE MORE, Mr. CAMP.
WHAT PARTICULARLY ABOUT
THAT POLICY, FOR EXAMPLE,
MAKES YOU UNEASY?

Dalton says THERE ARE ENORMOUS NUMBERS
OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE
THOSE KIND OF OPTIONS
IN THEIR LIVES.
THERE ARE TERRIBLE
DIFFICULTIES OUT THERE WITH
DYSFUNCTIONAL FAMILIES
AND ABANDONED CHILDREN.
TERRIBLE DIFFICULTIES WITH
SINGLE-PARENT FAMILIES THAT
CAN'T BE RESOLVED SIMPLY
BY NOBLE EXPRESSIONS OF
SENTIMENT, ABOUT RETRAINING
AND WORKFARE.
THAT'S NOT GOING
TO BE THE SOLUTION.
IN THE PROVINCE OF P.E.I.,
FOR EXAMPLE, I HAD A LETTER
THE OTHER DAY FROM
A DEPUTY MINISTER.
THEY DID ALL THIS ANALYSIS.
WENT OUT AND KNOCKED ON THE
DOORS BECAUSE THEY HAD A SMALL
MODEL TO WORK ON.
AND TO THEIR SATISFACTION, THE
NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON WELFARE
WHO WEREN'T ENTITLED TO THE
WELFARE WAS ABOUT 3 PERCENT.
I SAW FROM THE MINISTER IN
SASKATCHEWAN A LETTER IN THE
GLOBE AND MAIL
YESTERDAY, I
THINK, SAYING THEY HAD MADE
THE SAME ANALYSIS.
AND THEY ARE DOING A VERY
GOOD JOB IN SASKATCHEWAN.
MARGINAL, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE
WHO ARE ABUSING THE SYSTEM.
WHAT WE HAVE IS AN ECONOMY
THAT'S AN ABSOLUTE DISASTER.

Tom says AND YOU AND I AGREE
WITH THAT 100 PERCENT.

Dalton continues HUGE FORTUNES BEING RIPPED
OFF, AND PEOPLE BEING LAID OFF
SO THAT PEOPLE CAN MAKE
PROFIT FROM LAYING THEM OFF.
THEY ARE PASSED BACK THROUGH
THE SOCIETY INTO THE SYSTEM.

Tom says DALTON, PLEASE.

Steve says LET'S ADDRESS THAT ISSUE.

Tom says THERE IS NO ONE IN THE
POLITICAL PROCESS TODAY WHO IS
ACTUALLY STANDING FOR ELECTION
WHO WOULD BELIEVE A WORD OF
WHAT YOU JUST GOT
THROUGH SAYING.

Dalton says I REALIZE THAT.

Tom says NOT A PERSON.

Dalton says I WOULDN'T SAY THAT.
NO, NO, NO.

Tom says WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHERE THE
ROY ROMANOW NEW DEMOCRATIC
PARTY IS TODAY IN TERMS OF
THEIR IDEAS FOR THE FUTURE,
WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT
THE LIBERAL PARTY IN
BRITISH COLUMBIA IS
SAYING, WHEN YOU LOOK AT
THE SUCCESSFUL PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVES, THE PEOPLE
LIKE RALPH KLEIN AND PREMIER
FILMON, AND PREMIER HARRIS,
THAT'S THE FUTURE OF THE PARTY.
THIS MYTH THAT YOU ARE
PROPAGATING THAT SOMEHOW IT'S
THE WEALTHY IN SOCIETY WHO
HAVE CREATED THE PROBLEMS,
I MEAN, GET REAL,
DALTON, REALLY.
WE'VE GOT TO CREATE AN
ENVIRONMENT FOR OPPORTUNITY
AND FOR INVESTMENT
AND WEALTH CREATION.

Dalton says WHY DON'T YOU?
TELL ME ABOUT IT.

Tom continues AND THAT'S THE REST
OF THE PROGRAM.
WHAT MIKE HARRIS SAID
WAS WE NEED TO HAVE
AN INTEGRATED PROGRAM.
SO WHAT HE SAID WAS, NUMBER ONE,
WE HAVE TO REDUCE TAXES BY
30 PERCENT IN TERMS OF THE RATE,
TO GET ONTARIO'S TOP MARGINAL
RATE OF TAX DOWN TO
THE LOWEST IN THE COUNTRY
TO MAKE US TAX COMPETITIVE.
NUMBER TWO, WE HAVE TO
RESTRAIN THE EXPLOSION
IN GOVERNMENT SPENDING.
WHEN Mr. DAVIS LEFT OFFICE
IN 1985, THE GOVERNMENT OF
ONTARIO WAS SPENDING
26 BILLION DOLLARS.
A FAIR AMOUNT OF MONEY.
AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE
WOULD SUGGEST HE WAS NOT THE
STINGIEST CONSERVATIVE
POLITICIAN THEY'D EVER MET.
TEN YEARS LATER, THE
GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO IS
SPENDING OVER 56 BILLION DOLLARS.
WE'VE DOUBLED THE SIZE OF
GOVERNMENT SPENDING, AND WE
HAVEN'T DOUBLED OUR ABILITY TO
DELIVER QUALITY SERVICES
TO PEOPLE.
SO MIKE HAS SAID WE HAVE TO
REDUCE NON-PRIORITY GOVERNMENT
SPENDING, WHICH MEANS
EVERYTHING WHICH ISN'T
HEALTHCARE RELATED OR
IN-CLASSROOM EDUCATION,
OR LAW AND ORDER,
BY 20 PERCENT.
NOT ACROSS THE BOARD, IN THE
WAY THAT'S BEEN DONE IN OTHER
PROVINCES, BUT IN
A TARGETED WAY.

Dalton says OR BUSES FOR PEOPLE WHO --

Tom says THAT WAS A DECISION
MADE BY THE TTC,
AND IT'S DISHONEST
TO SUGGEST OTHERWISE.
LET ME JUST --

Steve says HANG ON.
FOR THOSE OUTSIDE TORONTO,
THAT WAS ABOUT WHEEL-TRANS.
TRANSPORTATION FOR THE
PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED.

Tom says BUT IN ORDER TO COMPLETELY
ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ABOUT HOW
WE ARE GOING TO CREATE JOBS,
LET ME JUST ROUND OUT THE
PROGRAM, WHICH I'M HAPPY TO
PROVIDE YOU WITH A COPY OF,
BY THE WAY.

Steve says LET'S GO, LET'S GO.

Tom continues SO WE'VE GOT TAX CUT,
SPENDING CUTS, THEN WE HAVE TO
REMOVE WHAT MIKE CONSIDERS TO
BE THE UNNECESSARY BARRIERS
TO INVESTMENT AND
GROWTH IN ONTARIO.
FIRST AND FOREMOST AMONG THEM,
REPEALING BILL 40, WHICH WAS
THE NDP'S LABOUR LEGISLATION,
BUT THERE ARE A RANGE OF
OTHER THINGS THAT WE ARE
TALKING ABOUT DOING.
WE WANT TO DEREGULATE TO THE
EXTENT THAT IS POSSIBLE.
WE WANT TO REDUCE --

Steve says TOM, LET ME JUMP
IN FOR A SECOND HERE
BECAUSE WE'VE JUST BEEN
THROUGH A LONG ELECTION
CAMPAIGN, WE KNOW THE PLAN.
MOST PEOPLE ARE --

Tom says DALTON, APPARENTLY
HAS NOT HEARD ABOUT IT.

Dalton says I MISSED THE SPEECH.

Steve says OKAY, WELL WE KNOW
ABOUT SCRAPPING BILL 40,
WE KNOW ABOUT
EMPLOYMENT EQUITY.

Tom says WE'RE GOING TO REMOVE
BARRIERS TO INVESTMENT GROWTH,
PARTICULARLY AIMED
AT SMALL BUSINESSES.
SO WE'RE GOING TO TAKE PAYROLL
TAXES OFF OF SMALL BUSINESS.
FOURTHLY, WE ARE GOING TO
TRY TO DO BETTER FOR LESS.
WHICH MEANS BEING CREATIVE
ABOUT OUTSOURCING.
IT MEANS GETTING GOVERNMENT
TO BE MORE EFFICIENT,
RUN MORE LIKE A BUSINESS.
AND THE RESULT OF THE PROGRAM
IS WE BELIEVE, HAVING RUN
THIS THROUGH AN ECOMETRIC
MODEL THAT BOTH THE U OF T
HAS, AND ONE OF THE LEADING
FINANCIAL SERVICES FIRMS HAS,
THAT WE CAN BALANCE ONTARIO'S
BUDGET WITHIN THE FIRST TERM
OF HARRIS GOVERNMENT, AND
CREATE 725,000 NEW JOBS
THROUGH THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

Steve says LET'S GET SOME
EQUAL TIME HERE.

Tom continues THAT'S WHERE THE OPPORTUNITIES
COME FROM, DALTON.

Dalton says I CAN'T MATCH THAT.
725,000 NEW JOBS IN FOUR
YEARS AND BALANCING THE BUDGET
AT THE SAME TIME.

Steve asks WHAT SOUNDS BAD ABOUT
THAT APPROACH TO YOU,
TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU THINK
THERE ISN'T ANYTHING BAD
ABOUT THAT REPROACH?

Dalton says IT REMINDS ME
OF RONALD REAGAN.
REAGANOMICS, OR WHAT GEORGE
BUSH CALLED VOODOO ECONOMICS,
THAT YOU CAN CUT TAXES
AND, SOMEHOW OR OTHER,
THE ECONOMY IMPROVES.
IT'S NEVER WORKED.

Steve says REAGAN CUT THE TAXES, BUT
HE DIDN'T CUT THE SPENDING.

Dalton says YOU SAY TO PEOPLE, EVERYBODY
HAS TO MAKE A SACRIFICE.
THEN YOU -- SOME PEOPLE GET
THE STICK, SOMEBODY ELSE GETS
THE CARROT.

Tom says DO YOU KNOW THAT THE AVERAGE
ONTARIO FAMILY, THE KIND OF
PEOPLE WHO READ THE NEWSPAPER
YOU WRITE FOR, HAVEN'T HAD A
REAL PAY INCREASE SINCE 1988.
NOT A REAL PAY INCREASE.
WHILE THE GOVERNMENT
DOUBLED ITS SPENDING.

Dalton says WHY?
WHY?
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT WHEN
CORPORATE PROFITS ARE THE
HIGHEST THEY'VE
BEEN IN HISTORY?
ABSOLUTELY BILLIONS
OF PROFITS.
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?
WHY AREN'T THEY
MAKING MORE MONEY?

Tom says PROFIT IS NOT A
DIRTY WORD, DALTON.

Dalton says DON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT.
DON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT.
SO MUCH MONEY, IF YOU
READ THE FINANCIAL PAPERS,
THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT
TO DO WITH THE MONEY.
SO THEY BUY THEIR OWN SHARES
IN ORDER TO INFLATE THE VALUE
AND MAKE A QUICK BUCK.

Tom says LET ME UNDERSTAND
THE CAMP PROPOSITION.

Dalton says NO, LET'S UNDERSTAND
THE LONG PROPOSITION.
THE WAGE EARNERS IN THIS
PROVINCE -- IN NEW BRUNSWICK,
FOR EXAMPLE, IN EIGHT YEARS,
THE AVERAGE WEEKLY WAGE HAS
INCREASED BY 12 CENTS.
NOT 12 PERCENT, 12 CENTS.
AND I DARE SAY THAT ROUGHLY
THE SAME IS TRUE IN ONTARIO.
I DON'T THINK THAT'S FAIR.
WHERE IS THE PRINCIPLE
OF EQUITY IN THAT?
AND THEN YOU SAY, WHAT THE
WHOLE THING NEEDS TO MAKE IT
FEEL BETTER IS A TAX CUT.

Tom says OH, ABSOLUTELY.
IS YOUR PROPOSITION THAT
HIGH TAXES CREATE JOBS?

Dalton says MY PROPOSITION IS THAT TAX
CUTS
DON'T
CREATE JOBS.

Tom says THAT'S NONSENSE.
IT'S ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.

Dalton says PROVE IT.
IT'S NOT ABSOLUTE
NOT NONSENSE.
THERE IS NO MODEL.

Tom says PUTTING THE DOLLARS BACK IN
THE HANDS OF CITIZENS WHO CAN
THEN GO OUT AND BUY OR INVEST
IS, I MEAN, COMMON SENSE
TELLS US THAT, DALTON.
I MEAN, WHAT PLANET
DO YOU LIVE ON?

Dalton says WELL, I THOUGHT I LIVED IN
CANADA, UNTIL I LISTENED
TO YOU FOR A WHILE.
AND IT SOUNDS LIKE
RONALD REAGAN.
HE CUT TAXES AND
TRIPLED THE DEBT.
NOW, YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT,
YOU'RE GOING TO CUT TAXES
AND ELIMINATE THE DEBT.

Tom says ABSOLUTELY.
AND LET ME EXPLAIN
TO YOU HOW IT WORKS.

Steve says HANG ON A SEC.

Tom says I CAN EXPLAIN IT WITH A
SIMPLE MATHEMATICAL EQUATION.
WE ARE GOING TO REDUCE TAXES
BY 4 BILLION DOLLARS OVER THREE YEARS.
AND WE ARE GOING TO REDUCE
THE DEFICIT BY 2 BILLION DOLLARS
BY CUTTING SPENDING
BY 6 BILLION DOLLARS.
SO 4 PLUS 2 EQUALS 6.
THERE YOU ARE.

Dalton says WELL, I MEAN IT
SOUNDS BEAUTIFUL.

Steve says IT SOUNDS TO ME AS IF HE
BELIEVES YOU DON'T HATE
DEFICITS ENOUGH.
IS HE RIGHT ABOUT THAT?

Dalton says ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THAT.

Steve repeats YOU DON'T HATE
DEFICITS ENOUGH.

Dalton says ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THAT.

Steve says YOU'VE GOT TO BE A
DEFICIT BUSTER NOWADAYS.
AND YOU'RE NOT, RIGHT?

Dalton says SURE, IT'S FASHIONABLE,
DEFICIT MANIA, AND I AGREE.
AND PEOPLE ARE PREPARED, HAVE
BEEN PERSUADED THAT TO GET THE
DEFICIT DOWN, THEY'RE PREPARED
TO TAKE ALL KINDS OF HITS.
I THINK THE HITS THAT PEOPLE
ARE TAKING, HE'S TALKING
ABOUT, WHICH IS GOING TO BE
BORNE BY THE MIDDLE-CLASS,
IN TERMS OF FROZEN INCOMES,
INCREASING UNEMPLOYMENT, AND
INCREASING PROBLEMS DOWN
BELOW AT THE LOWER LEVELS.
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SIMPLY WAVE
A MAGIC WAND AND SAY TO THESE
PEOPLE, GO TO WORK.

Steve says THE LINE I HEAR FROM THIS
SIDE IS THE INTERNATIONAL
FINANCIERS WHO CURRENTLY BUY
OUR DEBT ARE NO LONGER GOING
TO DO IT IF IT IS
AS HIGH AS IT IS.

Dalton says ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.

Steve asks YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT?

Dalton says BOGEY MAN POLITICS.
CANADA JUST HAD A BOND
ISSUE, WHAT, THREE WEEKS AGO?
IT WAS GONE OVERNIGHT.
THE CANADIAN DOLLAR --

Tom says IF YOU ARE PREPARED TO PAY
EXORBITANT INTEREST CHARGES,
IF YOU ARE PREPARED TO
GIVE THAT RATE OF RETURN,
THEY WILL BUY
IT FOR A TIME.
BUT DALTON, YOU KNOW, WE WON
THIS ELECTION CAMPAIGN ON THE
VOTES OF A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT
ALL OF US IN THE PARTY SPENT
A LONG TIME COURTING.
VOTES THAT HAD NEVER COME TO
US DURING THE HEYDAY OF THE
DAVIS ADMINISTRATION.
PEOPLE ON LOWER
OR FIXED INCOMES.
A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO FOUND NO
HOPE IN THE CURRENT SYSTEM.
WE'VE TRIED TO SPEND
OUR WAY TO PROSPERITY.
WE'VE TRIED THAT.
GOD, IF THERE WAS A COUNTRY
ON EARTH THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN
PROSPEROUS BECAUSE OF SPENDING,
IT WOULD HAVE BEEN CANADA.

Steve says WELL, I DON'T HEAR HIM SAYING
WE'VE GOT TO DOUBLE SPEND AGAIN.

Tom continues BUT WE DID, DALTON.
NOT ONLY DID WE DO THAT, WE
RAISED WELFARE SPENDING FROM
800 MILLION DOLLARS TO OVER 6 BILLION,
AND THE PROBLEM GOT WORSE.
THERE HAS TO BE A POINT
AT WHICH SOMEONE WITH OBVIOUS
COMPASSION HAS TO SAY
THIS IS CLEARLY FAILING
THE VERY PEOPLE IT
WAS INTENDED TO HELP.

Dalton asks SO THE SOLUTION TO THE
PROBLEM IS TO CUT THEM OFF?

Tom says NO.
DALTON, I DIDN'T SAY THAT.
NONE OF THE VIEWERS --

Dalton says WHAT IS THE MAGIC
SOLUTION, THOUGH?
YOU TALK ABOUT TRAINING.

Tom says THERE IS NO MAGIC SOLUTION,
BUT THERE IS SOMETHING BASIC,
I THINK, IN THE UPBRINGING
OF MOST OF US WHO GREW UP IN
HOMES WHERE WE WERE TAUGHT
THINGS LIKE SELF-RELIANCE AND
HARD WORK AND INITIATIVE.

Steve says SURE.

Tom continues WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS TO
PROVIDE AN OPPORTUNITY
FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO
DON'T HAVE THAT,
WHO ARE TRAPPED
IN THE SYSTEM.
AND I TELL YOU SOMETHING, THE
PREMIER READ A LETTER LAST
NIGHT AT A DINNER I WAS AT.
AND IT WAS FROM SOMEONE WHO
OWNS A VERY SMALL APARTMENT
BUILDING COMPLEX IN
SOUTHWESTERN ONTARIO,
IN WATERLOO.
AND THIS PERSON WROTE TO DAVE
TSUBOUCHI, OUR MINISTER, TO
SAY THERE WERE THREE PEOPLE
WHO LIVED IN HIS BUILDING WHO
WERE ON SOCIAL ASSISTANCE,
AND THEY HAD BEEN TOLD BY
GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS THAT
BECAUSE THEIR BENEFITS HAD
BEEN REDUCED, THEY WERE NOW
LIVING IN UNITS THAT WEREN'T
APPROPRIATE UNDER THE PROGRAM
THE GOVERNMENT HAS, AND THEY
WOULD HAVE TO FIND
OTHER ACCOMMODATION.
AND THESE PEOPLE WENT OUT AND
FOUND WORK ON THEIR OWN IN
ORDER TO MAKE UP THE MONEY SO
THEY COULD STAY IN THEIR UNITS.
AND THIS PERSON WROTE TO DAVE
TSUBOUCHI WHO PASSED THE
LETTER ON TO THE PREMIER WHO
SAID THANK GOD WE'VE GOT A
GOVERNMENT THAT IS HELPING
PEOPLE GET UP OFF OF THEIR
BACKSIDES AND ONTO THEIR
FEET SO THEY CAN PROVIDE
FOR THEMSELVES.
WHAT IS WRONG
FOR THAT, DALTON?

Steve says LET ME GET YOUR
REACTION TO THAT.

Dalton says MY REACTION IS PEOPLE AREN'T
SITTING ON THEIR BACKSIDES.
THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE HARD
UP AND HAVING A HARD TIME,
MANY OF THEM ARE ILL.

Tom says AND THEY, BY THE WAY, HAVE
ALL BEEN EXEMPTED FROM THE
PREMIER'S PROGRAM.
AS HAVE THE ELDERLY,
AS HAVE SINGLE PARENTS
WITH YOUNG CHILDREN.

Dalton asks HOW MANY DO YOU THINK
OUT THERE ARE LEFT THEN?

Tom says OH, I THINK QUITE A NUMBER.
ENOUGH TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Dalton says A HUNDRED THOUSAND,
FIFTY THOUSAND?

Tom continues IF WE MAKE A DIFFERENCE
IN THE LIFE OF SOMEONE WHO
PREVIOUSLY DIDN'T HAVE --
WHEN THE PREMIER WAS OUT
CAMPAIGNING IN THE LAST
ELECTION HE SAT DOWN WITH SOME
SINGLE MOTHERS WHO WERE
ON SOCIAL ASSISTANCE
TO HEAR ABOUT THEIR PROBLEMS.
AND ONE OF THESE WOMEN WAS
IN ONE OF THE PRIVATE SECTOR
PROGRAMS, AND SHE SAID TO
MIKE, I DIDN'T HAVE THE
SELF-RESPECT TO FACE MY
CHILDREN IN THE PAST.
I DIDN'T KNOW WHY I WAS
GETTING UP IN THE MORNING.
AND A PROGRAM LIKE THIS
IS EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED.
DALTON, THIS HAS BEEN A
SUCCESS IN JURISDICTIONS
AROUND THE WORLD.
AND IT'S TIME FOR US TO BE A
LEADER HERE IN ONTARIO AND
GIVING PEOPLE THE TOOLS
THEY CAN SUPPORT THEMSELVES.
WE BELIEVE, AS A PARTY,
I THINK, IN INDIVIDUAL
RESPONSIBILITY AND IN
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Steve says THE THING WE HEAR MOST OF
ALL, THOUGH, FROM NOT JUST
PEOPLE LIKE DALTON CAMP, BUT
FROM YOUR CRITICS IN OTHER
PARTIES AS WELL, IS YOU GUYS
HAVE BEEN OVERCOME BY THIS
WHOLE NEWT GINGRICH
NEO-CONSERVATIVE AGENDA THAT
HAS LOST ITS SOUL, AND IS
REALLY JUST INTERESTED IN A
KIND OF RIGHT WING/REFORM
VIEW OF THE WORLD.

Dalton says I DON'T KNOW WHY WE ARE
BOGGING DOWN AND TALKING
ABOUT THE POOR PEOPLE?
THE PROBLEM, THAT'S
NOT THE PROBLEM.

Tom says THE PROBLEM IS WE
ARE SOAKING THE RICH.
WE'RE
NOT
SOAKING THE
RICH, ACCORDING TO DALTON.
WE'VE GOT
TO GO OUT AND --

Steve says HANG ON.
THE PROBLEM IS?

Dalton says YOU SAY THERE'S THIS
TERRIBLE PROBLEM OVER THERE
OF THE POOR PEOPLE.
SURE, THEY'RE A PROBLEM.
BUT THE ANSWER TO THE PROBLEM
IS NOT TO GO AFTER THE POOR
PEOPLE OR PERSUADE THE MIDDLE-
CLASS THAT THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE HAVE
STOPPED, SOMEHOW, FAILED IN
THIS CANADIAN ECONOMY, AND
THIS NEW WHAT YOU WANT, GLOBAL
ECONOMY, WE DON'T HAVE A
COVENANT BETWEEN MANAGEMENT
AND LABOUR THAT
WE USED TO HAVE.
WE HAVE A SYSTEM NOW WHERE
PEOPLE ARE ROUTINELY FIRED, IN
WHICH THE PRODUCTIVITY OF
THE COMPANY NEVER CHANGES,
REMAINS STABLE, BUT THE
VALUE OF THE SHARES GO UP
BECAUSE THE COMPANY JUST
LOST A FEW THOUSAND WORKERS.
WAIT A MINUTE.
LET ME FINISH,
LET MY FINISH.
THE PEOPLE WHO ARE FIRED ARE
OUT THERE, GOD KNOWS WHAT'S
TO BECOME OF THEM,
BUT NOW YOU TALK ABOUT
THE MIDDLE-CLASS BURDEN.
THAT'S THE MIDDLE-CLASS
BURDEN, CARRYING ALL THIS NEW
BAGGAGE, NEW FREIGHT OF PEOPLE
WHO ARE OUT OF WORK AND THEIR
CAREERS HAVE BEEN RUINED.
THEN YOU HAVE, AFTER YOU'VE
DONE ALL THAT, THEN THEY COME
ALONG AND SAY, YOU KNOW, WE
NEED, DON'T RAISE OUR TAXES,
FOR GOD'S SAKE.
STOP REGULATING US.
LET US BE FREE IN
THE MARKETPLACE.
LET US DO WHAT WE WANT.
THEY SAY GOVERNMENT'S TOO BIG.
REDUCE THE SIZE
OF THE GOVERNMENT.
IF WE REDUCE THE SIZE OF
THE GOVERNMENT, WHO SPEAKS
FOR THE PEOPLE?
WHO IS GOING TO
SPEAK FOR THE PEOPLE?

Tom says THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN.
THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN IN
ALBERTA, AND IN MANITOBA, AND
IN ONTARIO, AND WHAT THEY HAVE
SAID, DALTON, IS THAT YOU ARE
LIVING IN THE PAST.
THE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND
THE WORLD HAS CHANGED.

Dalton says YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND
HOW MUCH IT'S CHANGED.

Tom continues IT IS TIME FOR NEW SOLUTIONS.
AND WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO SAY
TO YOU, DALTON, IS YOU CAN'T
USE 1960's SOLUTIONS
FOR 1990's PROBLEMS.

Dalton says THIS GUY WALKS IN OFF THE
19th HOLE AND SUDDENLY
BECOMES A MAJOR PROPHET.
THAT'S NONSENSE.
YOU SAID HE LIVES IN
THE NEW 21st CENTURY.

Tom says MIKE HARRIS REBUILT THE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY AFTER THE
SHAMBLES WE HAD IN THE LATE
1980s, AND HE DID IT BY
OPENING THE PARTY UP,
DEMOCRATIZING OUR FUNDRAISING
AND FINANCING, LETTING
EVERY PARTY MEMBER VOTE
FOR PARTY LEADER.
THEN HE SPENT THE NEXT FIVE
YEARS GOING ACROSS THE
PROVINCE AND LISTENING TO
PEOPLE AND REALLY HEARING WHAT
THEY HAD TO SAY ABOUT THE
SOLUTIONS THEY WANTED.
THE THING THAT CHEESES GUYS
LIKE YOU OFF, DALTON, IS THAT
THIS IS NOT CLIQUE
DRIVEN POLITICS ANYMORE.
THE PEOPLE ARE SPEAKING.

Dalton says WHAT ARE YOU THE HEAD OF?
BOY SCOUT TROOP?

Tom says I'LL TELL YOU SOMETHING,
THE PARTY WAS FOR MANY YEARS
DRIVEN BY A CLIQUE.
AND WHAT'S REALLY UNDER YOUR
SKIN IS THAT YOU GUYS DON'T
DRIVE THE BUS ANYMORE.

Steve says WE'VE GOT ABOUT A MINUTE
LEFT, LET ME TRY THIS.
WE'VE GOT ABOUT A MINUTE
LEFT, LET ME TRY THIS.

Tom says I THINK YOU'RE READING
THAT PAPER YOU WRITE TO.

Steve says IT'S
THE TORONTO STAR
FOR
THOSE WHO DON'T GET A CHANCE
TO SEE YOUR COLUMN.

Dalton says I DON'T GET A CHANCE TO READ
THE TORONTO STAR
BECAUSE
I WRITE IN NEW BRUNSWICK.

Steve says SOMEBODY AT QUEEN'S PARK WHO
IS ONE OF THESE HARRIS TORIES
TOLD ME THE OTHER DAY THAT
YOU HAVE BECOME, IN FACT,
JOHN DIEFENBAKER.
YOU'VE BEEN THE THING YOU
LIKE LEAST IN POLITICS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF
THAT KIND OF ACCUSATION?

Dalton says I DON'T EVEN KNOW
WHAT HE MEANS.
TELL HIM TO GIVE HIM MY
COMPLIMENTS AND TELL HIM TO
KEEP READING
THE STAR
HE MAY LEARN SOMETHING.

Steve says WHAT HE MEANS IS YOU'RE
YESTERDAY'S NEWS.
THAT'S WHAT HE MEANS.

Dalton asks WHAT AM I DOING HERE?

Tom says WELL, DALTON, YOU KNOW,
IF YOU WOULD JUST READ THE
PROGRAM BEFORE YOU CRITICIZE.

Dalton says I DIDN'T INVITE
MYSELF TO COME HERE.

Tom says BUT YOU YOURSELF ADMITTED
YOU HAVEN'T READ THE PROGRAM,
DALTON.
I THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
COLUMNS ATTACKING MIKE HARRIS
AND THE PARTY, YOU AT LEAST
OWE IT TO YOUR READERS,
WHO DO FOLLOW YOUR COLUMN.

Dalton says CAN I SAY ON THE PROGRAM, I
CAN SAY THAT, I THINK I'VE
SAID IT BEFORE, 750,000 NEW
JOBS IN FOUR YEARS AND NO DEBT.
AND I SAY, GOOD LUCK.
WHAT CAN I SAY ABOUT THAT?

Tom says THE POINT IS YOU
HAVEN'T READ THE PROGRAM.

Steve says WE'VE GOT 30 SECONDS LEFT.

Dalton says I READ ALL THE CHARTS, ALL
THE GRAPHS, ALL THE STUFF
YOU SENT ME.
AND I'M SORRY WE DIDN'T HAVE
THE MEETING, BUT WHEN I GOT
BACK FROM
ANTIGUA, I HAD --

Steve says Mr. CAMP, WE'VE GOT
20 SECONDS LEFT.
GIVE HIM SOME ADVICE.
WHAT DO YOU WANT
HIM TO BE HIP TO?

Dalton asks HIP TO?

Steve says YES.
AWARE OF, CONCERNED ABOUT.

Dalton says I WOULD LIKE TO THINK
CONSERVATIVES TODAY WOULD NOT
LOOK THROUGH THE BINOCULARS
THE WRONG END AND TAKE A
LOOK AT THE MACRO VIEW
OF THE WORLD OUT THERE
AND WHAT'S HAPPENING.
AND WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THE
FREE ENTERPRISE ECONOMY,
AND HOW PEOPLE ARE BEING
SQUEEZED OUT AND LEFT OUT,
AND IT'S NOT GETTING
BETTER, IT'S GETTING WORSE.
AND THE ANSWER ISN'T TO GO
AROUND AND TELL PEOPLE
WE ARE GOING TO FIX THAT
BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO
LOOK AFTER THE POOR.
IT'S NOT GOING TO BE
LOOKED AFTER BY DESTROYING
THE SYSTEM WE BUILT.
SOMEBODY SAID THE OTHER DAY,
ANY JACKASS CAN KICK THE
BARN DOWN, BUT IT TAKES A
FEW GOOD MEN TO BUILD ONE.

Steve says ON THAT NOTE, I'M GOING TO
SUGGEST WE DO THIS AGAIN
BECAUSE THIS WAS FASCINATING.
DALTON CAMP, TOM LONG,
THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH.

Dalton and Tom shake hands.

Dalton says TOM, NICE TO HEAR FROM YOU.

Tom says YEAH, SAME HERE.

Watch: The Common Sense Revolution