Transcript: Idle No More's Momentum and Meaning | Aug 04, 2021

An animated slate reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

A female announcer says THE AGENDA IN THE SUMMER WITH NAM KIWANUKA IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH GENEROUS PHILANTHROPIC CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING TVO'S JOURNALISM.

Nam stands in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length straight brown hair. She's wearing glasses, a purple blazer and a matching blouse.

A wall screen behind her reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

Nam says THE CONVERSATION UNDERWAY TODAY AROUND CANADA'S HISTORIC TREATMENT OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE HAS MANY PRECURSORS. I'M NAM KIWANUKA. ONE OF THEM WAS A PROTEST MOVEMENT KNOWN AS IDLE NO MORE. TONIGHT, WE LOOK BACK AT ITS EARLY DAYS, AND THE CONTEXT IT OFFERS US NOW.

Music plays as an animated slate reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

Nam says IDLE NO MORE BEGAN IN NOVEMBER OF 2012, IN PROTEST TO THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT'S SO-CALLED OMNIBUS BILL C-45, WHICH BECAME KNOWN AS THE JOBS AND GROWTH ACT. FOUR WOMEN IN SASKATCHEWAN, CONCERNED ABOUT THE BILL ERODING INDIGENOUS TREATY RIGHTS AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, PUT A CALL OUT ON SOCIAL MEDIA FOR A MEETING IN SASKATOON TITLED IDLE NO MORE. IN JUST A FEW WEEKS IT BECAME A MOVEMENT, WITH MAJOR DEMONSTRATIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND IN OTTAWA, OUTSIDE THEN-PRIME MINISTER STEPHEN HARPER'S OFFICE. WHILE THE IMMEDIATE AIM WAS TO STOP THE PASSAGE OF THAT BILL, ITS INFLUENCE BECAME MUCH BIGGER THAN THAT, CONTINUING TO THIS DAY AS A GRASSROOTS, WOMEN-LED MOVEMENT FOR INDIGENOUS RIGHTS THAT SPANS THE CONTINENT. THIS CONVERSATION FROM JANUARY 2013 TOOK PLACE JUST DAYS BEFORE PRIME MINISTER STEPHEN HARPER MET WITH INDIGENOUS LEADERS.

An animated slate reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

A clip plays. In the clip, Steve sits in the studio with three guests. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his forties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a black suit, light blue shirt, and blue and black patterned tie.

A caption reads "Idle no more: Protest to change? A grassroots movement."

Steve says WHATEVER IT IS, IT SEEMS TO HAVE COME TOGETHER QUITE ORGANICALLY. BUT DO YOU THINK YOU'RE THE HEAD OF A MOVEMENT?

The caption changes to "Pamela Palmater. Ryerson University."

She's in her thirties, has long, dark brown, curly hair parted to the side with very blond bangs, and wears a black blazer with a white blouse.

She says OH, I'M NOT THE HEAD OF THE MOVEMENT. YEAH.

Steve says NOT THE HEAD.

Pamela says NOT THE HEAD.

Steve says YOU ARE... ARE YOU...

The caption changes to "Originally aired January 7, 2013."

Pamela says IT'S AN ORGANIC PEOPLE'S MOVEMENT, WITHOUT ANY BUREAUCRACY. YOU DON'T HAVE ANY ELECTED LEADERS OR PAID POLITICIANS. AND WHAT YOU HAVE IS A SERIES OF ORGANIZERS AND SPOKESPEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY. AND THE THING ABOUT THIS MOVEMENT IS THAT IT RESPECTS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF INDIVIDUALS AND FIRST NATIONS, SO THAT WE... IT'S OKAY FOR US TO SAY DIFFERENT THINGS AT DIFFERENT TIMES. AND SOME OF US WANT TO DO MARCHES AND RALLIES. SOME OF US JUST WANT TO DO ROUND DANCES. SOME OF US DON'T WANT TO BE INVOLVED. AND THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF THIS MOVEMENT. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, MINISTER DUNCAN ALSO DENIED THAT THIS IS A MOVEMENT. HE SAID THAT THIS WAS JUST A LITTLE BUNCH OF SOCIAL MEDIA. BUT I THINK THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS RECOGNIZED THAT IT'S A MOVEMENT. I MEAN, YOU CAN'T DENY IT EXISTS. THERE'S ACTIVITIES GOING ON EVERY DAY. IT'S BEEN THAT WAY FOR A MONTH, AND WE'RE RAMPING UP. WE HAVE A STRATEGIC ACTION PLAN ABOUT HOW TO EXPAND. SO, IF IT LOOKS LIKE A MOVEMENT AND WALKS LIKE A MOVEMENT, IT SEEMS TO BE A MOVEMENT TO ME.

She chuckles.

Steve says WHAT DO YOU THINK SPARKED IT?

Pamela says OH, I KNOW THE LEGISLATION SPARKED IT. I MEAN...

Steve says AS OPPOSED TO THE HUNGER STRIKE?

Pamela says OH, YES. THIS WAS WAY... IT STARTED BEFORE CHIEF SPENCE'S HUNGER STRIKE. AND YOU HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND, HER HUNGER STRIKE IS... SHE'S DOING THAT SEPARATELY. WE'RE STANDING IN SOLIDARITY WITH HER, BUT SHE'S NOT PART OF THE IDLE NO MORE MOVEMENT. AND SIMILARLY, THE ACTIONS BEING TAKEN BY FIRST NATIONS CHIEFS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY HAD PLANNED ON DOING ANYWAY, AND WE'RE ALL WORKING IN TANDEM.

Steve says RUSSELL, THE NAME... WE'RE GOING TO GET TO THE LEGISLATION THAT EVERYBODY IS CONCERNED ABOUT, BUT FIRST, LET'S DO ONE MORE THING ON THIS. THE NAME "IDLE NO MORE." SUGGESTS, OF COURSE, THAT THERE WAS PLENTY TO BE IDLE ABOUT IN THE PAST, OR THAT PEOPLE WERE TOO IDLE IN THE PAST. DO YOU THINK THAT'S TRUE?

The caption changes to "Russel Diabo. First Nations Strategic Bulletin."

He's in his forties, with long white hair pulled back in a ponytail, and a thin mustache. He's wearing frameless glasses, and a green striped collared shirt.

He says I THINK THAT'S TRUE FOR A LOT OF THE GRASSROOTS PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T REALLY BEEN INVOLVED. BUT THEN, THE INDIAN ACT SYSTEM, YOU KNOW, THE CHIEF AND COUNCILS ARE REPORTING TO OTTAWA MORE THAN TO THE PEOPLE. SO, PEOPLE ARE OFTEN LEFT OUT IN THE DECISIONS, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT IDLE NO MORE REFLECTS, IS THAT THE PEOPLE ARE GETTING INVOLVED AND HAVING A SAY IN, YOU KNOW, THE POLITICS AFFECTING THEIR LIVES, LIKE THIS SUITE OF LEGISLATION. THE HASHTAG THAT I'VE BEEN PROMOTING, THOUGH, IS "IDLE KNOW MORE," K-N-O-W, BECAUSE ONE OF MY CONCERNS ABOUT IDLE NO MORE IS THAT THEY'VE BEEN FOCUSING ON C-45 AND SOME OF THE BILLS. BUT MY CONTENTION IS THERE'S A LARGER AGENDA AT PLAY. AND THAT'S THE SELF-GOVERNMENT AND LAND CLAIMS POLICIES ON TOP OF THE LEGISLATION. AND THOSE ARE ALL BASED ON ESSENTIALLY TERMINATING ABORIGINAL TREATY RIGHTS OVER TIME. AND THAT'S BEEN AN AGENDA OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SINCE THE 1969 WHITE PAPER ON INDIAN POLICY. BUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1969 WHITE PAPER ON INDIAN POLICY WAS IT WAS A STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLES. IN 2012 AND 2013, WE HAVE A PLAN THAT THE HARPER GOVERNMENT IS IMPLEMENTING, AND THE PLAN IS THIS SUITE OF LEGISLATION. AND DON'T FORGET, ON SEPTEMBER 4 OF 2012, HE ANNOUNCED THREE NEW POLICY MEASURES. ONE WAS THIS RESULTS-BASED APPROACH TO NEGOTIATING MODERN TREATIES AND SELF-GOVERNMENT AGREEMENTS. THERE'S 92 TABLES ACROSS THE COUNTRY REPRESENTING HUNDREDS OF BANDS. AND BASICALLY, THAT'S A FEDERAL ASSESSMENT PROCESS THEY ANNOUNCED, SAYING, "WE'RE GOING TO DROP TABLES THAT AREN'T PREPARED TO SETTLE ON FINAL AGREEMENTS UNDER OUR TERMS." AND THEN, THE SECOND INITIATIVE WAS THAT HE CAPPED AND CUT THE FUNDING FOR FIRST NATIONS POLITICAL ADVOCACY ORGANIZATIONS, PROVINCIAL AND TERRITORIAL ORGANIZATIONS. HE'S CAPPING THEM TO 500000 dollars A YEAR, WHICH IS GOING TO CRIPPLE THEIR ABILITY FOR THE CHIEFS TO MEET AND ANALYZE ACTIVITIES OF FEDERAL AND PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENTS, INCLUDING POLICIES AND LEGISLATION. AND HE ALSO... THE THIRD ANNOUNCEMENT HE MADE WAS THAT THEY'RE CUTTING ADVISORY SERVICES TO BANDS AND TRIBAL COUNCILS OVER THE NEXT TWO YEARS. MEANWHILE, IN 2011 AND 2012, INDIAN AFFAIRS ALONE SPENT 110 MILLION DOLLARS IN LEGAL COSTS FIGHTING FIRST NATIONS. AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN TOTAL SPENT ABOUT 500 MILLION DOLLARS IN LEGAL COSTS. NOT JUST DEALING WITH FIRST NATIONS ISSUES, BUT YOU KNOW, DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES AND OCEANS, A CHUNK OF THAT GOES AGAINST FIGHTING FISHING RIGHTS OF ABORIGINAL PEOPLES, AND SO ON, AND SO ON. YET THEY'RE SAYING WE SHOULDN'T HAVE ADVISORY SERVICES OR THE ABILITY TO ADVOCATE AND REPRESENT OUR INTERESTS. SO, THERE'S A LARGER AGENDA AT PLAY HERE, WHICH I CALL HARPER'S TERMINATION PLAN, THAN WHAT THE IDLE NO MORE MOVEMENT HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

Steve says OKAY. RUSSELL, YOU PUT A LOT ON THE TABLE HERE, SO LET'S ACTUALLY... IN THE INTERESTS OF GETTING EVERYBODY UP TO SPEED ON THE BACKGROUND HERE, TALK ABOUT WHAT THESE ACTS ARE THAT THERE'S SO MUCH CONCERN ABOUT. AND FOR THE RECORD, WE DID INVITE THE MINISTER, JOHN DUNCAN, TO BE HERE TODAY. HE DECLINED THE INVITATION. BUT HERE'S WHAT THEY'RE UP TO. IF WE COULD, CONTROL ROOM, HERE WE GO...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Bill C-45." The quote reads "Introduced by the Harper government October 18, Passed and received royal assent December 15, Now known at the 'Jobs and Growth Act, 2012', Department of Finance Canada, 2012."

Another quote appears on screen, under the title "Changes of Concern." The quote reads "Indian Act, Navigation Protection Act, formerly Navigable Waters Protection Act, Environmental Assessment Act, idenomore.ca."

Steve says BILL C-45, WHICH IS AT THE TOP OF THE LIST OF IRRITANTS HERE. C-45 IS THE SECOND OMNIBUS BUDGET BILL. IT WAS INTRODUCED BY THE HARPER GOVERNMENT ON THE 18TH OF OCTOBER, 2012. THE BILL PASSED, HAS RECEIVED ROYAL ASSENT ON THE 15TH OF DECEMBER. IT'S NOW KNOWN AS THE "JOBS AND GROWTH ACT, 2012." AND WHILE THE ACT CHANGES LEGISLATION IN SOME 60 OTHER ACTS AND REGULATIONS, THE CHANGES TO THE FOLLOWING ACTS CONCERN IDLE NO MORE THE MOST. THE INDIAN ACT, OBVIOUSLY; THE NAVIGATION PROTECTION ACT, WHICH IS THE FORMER NAVIGABLE WATERS PROTECTION ACT; AND THE ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT ACT. NOW, THAT'S A BIG CHUNK OF STUFF TO GO THROUGH, SO LET'S START TO GO THROUGH THIS. PAMELA, GET US STARTED HERE. THE KEY OBJECTIONS THAT YOUR MOVEMENT HAS TO THE CHANGES THAT C-45 MAKES ARE WHAT?

The caption changes to "Pamela Palmater. Idle No More."

Pamela says WELL, JUST WHAT YOU LISTED. SO, THE UNILATERAL AMENDMENTS TO THE INDIAN ACT IN TERMS OF THE LAND SURRENDER PROVISIONS WITHOUT CONSULTING WITH FIRST NATIONS AND ACCOMMODATING AND GETTING THEIR CONSENT. I MEAN, CLEARLY, THE SUPREME COURT OF CANADA SAYS YOU HAVE A DUTY TO CONSULT AND ACCOMMODATE. AND THE UNITED NATIONS DECLARATION ON THE RIGHTS OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLES says ACTUALLY, YOU HAVE TO GET CONSENT. THEY FAILED TO DO...

Steve says THEY SAY THERE'S NO SURRENDER. THEY SAY THERE IS NO LAND SURRENDER.

Pamela says OKAY. UNDER THE INDIAN ACT, IT'S CALLED A SURRENDER. THERE'S A CONDITIONAL SURRENDER OR AN ABSOLUTE SURRENDER. AN ABSOLUTE SURRENDER IS WHEN YOU GIVE IT AWAY PERMANENTLY FOR SALE, FOR EXAMPLE. A CONDITIONAL SURRENDER IS ALSO CALLED A DESIGNATION, USUALLY DONE FOR LEASING PURPOSES.

Steve says AND THAT'S ALL THIS IS, RIGHT? JUST LEASING?

Pamela says WELL, I WOULDN'T JUST SAY THAT'S ALL THIS IS. WHAT IT'S DOING IS CHANGING THE THRESHOLD ABOUT HOW YOU CAN SURRENDER THOSE LANDS FOR LEASING PURPOSES. YOU COULD LITERALLY HAVE A FIRST NATION OF 10000 PEOPLE, AND A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE SHOW UP AND SURRENDER THE ENTIRE RESERVE LAND TO GIVE TO ENBRIDGE, FOR EXAMPLE.

Steve says BUT THAT'S THEIR POINT. THEIR POINT IS IF THERE'S NO QUORUM THERE, THAT SHOULDN'T HOLD BACK, QUOTE UNQUOTE, "PROGRESS."

Pamela says WELL, YEAH. PROGRESS FOR WHO AND IN WHOSE INTEREST?

Steve says FAIR ENOUGH.

Pamela says WE ALL KNOW INDIAN AFFAIRS CONTROLS THESE REFERENDUMS, AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM. NOT EVERYBODY GETS ALL THE INFORMATION, AND MANY TRADITIONAL COMMUNITIES DON'T PARTICIPATE IN INDIAN ACT REFERENDUMS, BECAUSE THEY VERY MUCH RESIST THAT COLONIALLY IMPOSED SYSTEM. SO, WHAT YOU COULD HAVE IS FIVE OR SIX PEOPLE CONTROL THE ENTIRE AGENDA, AND ACTUALLY LOSE ALL OF THAT LAND. AND THINK ABOUT PIPELINES, LIKE, OR MINING. YOU COULD PERMANENTLY DESTROY INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES.

Steve says IT'S TRUE. WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S TRUE. BUT THE GOVERNMENT'S POSITION IS YOU PREVIOUSLY NEEDED A MAJORITY OF THE MAJORITY TO SHOW UP AND MAKE IT HAPPEN.

Pamela says YEAH.

Steve says WHICH MEANT THAT IF YOU COULDN'T GET A QUORUM TO SHOW UP, NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN AT ALL.

Pamela says NO, BUT THAT ACTUALLY DIDN'T HAPPEN. IF YOU COULDN'T GET A QUORUM, THEY WOULD CALL A SECOND MEETING, I MEAN, 'CAUSE THAT WAS THE PROCESS THAT INDIAN AFFAIRS USED. AND THAT'S THERE FOR A REASON: TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU'RE HEARING THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE ON THOSE KINDS OF LAND SURRENDERS.

A caption reads "Cynthia Wesley-Esquimaux, BANFF CENTRE."

Cynthia is in her forties, has medium-length dark gray hair. She wears small earrings, a dark gray blazer with large lapels, a black V-neck shirt, and a thin silver necklace.

She says I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY THAT. IF THEY DIDN'T SHOW UP TO MAKE THE DECISION, IT'S BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT THAT DECISION MADE.

Pamela says YEAH.

Cynthia says THAT'S WHY THEY'RE NOT SHOWING UP. I MEAN, I THINK IT'S THE SAME IN ANY GOVERNMENT. THE REALITIES ARE IN THE COMMUNITIES THAT THEY DO NOT WANT TO SEE THEIR LANDS ALIENATED, AND IF THEY'RE GOING TO BE ALIENATED, THEY SURE AS HECK WANT TO HAVE A SAY IN HOW IT'S DONE AND WHERE IT GOES. THEY WANT TO BE A PART OF THE ECONOMICS. THEY WANT TO BE ASSURED THAT THEY'RE GETTING AN EQUITABLE DISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH FROM THE RESOURCES THAT ARE BEING EXTRACTED. THEY WANT TO HAVE SUSTAINABLE ECONOMIES IN THEIR COMMUNITIES. AND THERE'S ABOUT 15 COMMUNITIES ACROSS CANADA THAT ARE, QUOTE UNQUOTE, "SELF-GOVERNING," AND THEY'VE MADE SEPARATE DECISIONS FOR HOW THEY APPROACH THOSE KINDS OF ISSUES. BUT THE MAJORITY OF COMMUNITIES ACROSS THIS COUNTRY ARE, IN FACT, INDIAN ACT.

Steve says OKAY. LET ME... THIS MAY NOT BE AN APPROPRIATE ANALOGY, HAYDEN, BUT YOU HELP ME OUT WITH THIS, OKAY? SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND IT BETTER. IF, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WERE GOING TO BE A REFERENDUM ON WHETHER OR NOT TO PUT A CASINO IN DOWNTOWN TORONTO, IF YOU'RE A CITIZEN IN TORONTO AND YOU DON'T SHOW UP TO VOTE IN THE REFERENDUM, YOU DON'T GET THE RIGHT TO COMPLAIN AFTERWARDS THAT "WELL, MY VIEWS WEREN'T TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT." YOU DON'T SHOW UP TO VOTE, TOUGH LUCK.

The caption changes to "Hayden King. Ryerson University."

Hayden is in his thirties, has short brown hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a gray collared shirt over a light blue collared shirt.

He says YEAH. I DON'T THINK IT'S AN APPROPRIATE ANALOGY. I THINK THAT RUSSELL MADE A REALLY INTERESTING POINT ABOUT THE ACCOUNTABILITY IN FIRST NATION COMMUNITIES. AND LEADERS, BAND COUNCIL LEADERS AND COUNCILS, AREN'T REALLY ACCOUNTABLE TO PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITIES. THEY'RE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. AND I THINK THAT, UM, THERE AREN'T A LOT OF AVENUES FOR ACTION FOR INPUT BY FIRST NATIONS PEOPLES INTO THE POLITICAL PROCESS. THAT'S WHY I THINK THAT IDLE NO MORE IS COALESCING NOT ONLY AROUND RESISTING CHANGES THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS MAKING, BUT ALSO COALESCING AROUND, YOU KNOW, ACTIVISM AGAINST BAND COUNCIL CHIEFS, AGAINST THE AFN, AGAINST THE SYSTEM THAT PROHIBITS THEM ANY ACTIVE PARTICIPATION IN GOVERNANCE. SO, THE CITY OF TORONTO, MAYBE CITIZENS HAVE MORE ACCESS AND MORE AVENUES AND MORE ARENAS THROUGH WHICH TO ENGAGE THEIR LEADERS. FIRST NATION COMMUNITIES DON'T HAVE THAT. SO, IT'S LESS OF A... THE ANALOGY ISN'T THAT STRONG. AND WHO WOULD ADVOCATE AGAINST COMMUNITY CONSULTATION?

Other guests say YEAH.

Hayden says I MEAN, YOU WANT TO HAVE PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO... TO BE INFORMED AND MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT...

Steve says LET ME GET TERRY ON THIS, THEN, BECAUSE CLEARLY, THE FIRST NATIONS COMMUNITIES ARE PORTRAYING THIS AS AN ISSUE OF INADEQUATE CONSULTATION. THE GOVERNMENT IS PUTTING IT FORWARD AS, "YOU CAN'T CONSULT FOREVER. AT SOME POINT, YOU'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A DECISION." WHERE DO YOU COME DOWN ON THIS, TERRY?

The caption changes to "Terry Glavin. Ottawa Citizen. Via Skype."

A map pops up briefly showing the location of Victoria, south of Vancouver.

Terry is in his fifties, has dark gray hair slicked back, has a white goatee, and wears thin black-rimmed glasses, a gray blazer, and navy blue sweater.

He says IT'S, UH... WHERE I COME DOWN GENERALLY ON THIS IS THAT THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF HYSTERIA AND MISINFORMATION ABOUT THE PROVISIONS IN THAT PARTICULAR AMENDMENT TO THE INDIAN ACT. WHICH IS TOO BAD, BECAUSE THERE'S ACTUALLY SOME VERY, VERY SERIOUS AND LEGITIMATE CONCERNS THAT ABORIGINAL PEOPLE HAVE RAISED ABOUT THE SPECIFICS OF THAT AMENDMENT. THE WAY THAT PLAYS OUT IN A LOT OF ABORIGINAL COMMUNITIES WEST OF THE ROCKIES... A THIRD OF THE INDIAN BANDS IN CANADA ARE OUT HERE IN BRITISH COLUMBIA. IS THAT A LOT OF ABORIGINAL PEOPLE HAVE ONLY THE MOST TENUOUS CONNECTIONS TO THEIR HOME COMMUNITIES. THEY'RE OFF RESERVES. BUT THEY'RE OFF-RESERVE BUT THEY'RE STILL ON THE BAND LIST. AND WHEN A RESOURCE COMPANY COMES ALONG AND SAYS, "WELL, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO BUILD A REFINERY ON YOUR RESERVE number 3," AND THERE'S A BIG PAYOFF TO IT AND EVERYBODY GETS A CHEQUE IN THE MAIL... BUT THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE BACK IN THE COMMUNITY, THEY DON'T WANT TO BE WAKING UP IN THE MORNING IN THE SHADOW OF A HORRIBLE CHEMICAL REFINERY. SO, THERE ARE REALLY, REALLY DIFFICULT ISSUES HERE THAT SHOULD BE PROPERLY CANVASSED AND REPORTED AND RESOLVED. AND THAT'S MY COMPLAINT ABOUT THIS WHOLE THING, IS THAT THERE'S... ANOTHER ONE IS THAT, UH, THERE IS A TREATY INFRINGEMENT, AN ABROGATION INVOLVED IN REMOVING FEDERAL ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION FROM HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS, I'VE READ, MILLIONS OF LAKES AND STREAMS AND RIVERS ACROSS CANADA. THIS IS FICTION. IT'S ABSOLUTE FICTION. IT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE. THERE ARE AMENDMENTS TO THE FISHERIES ACT. I'M NOT IN FAVOUR OF THEM; I'M NOT ARGUING FOR THEM. I THINK THEY'RE RIDICULOUS. THERE'S AMENDMENTS TO THE NAVIGABLE WATERS PROTECTION ACT THAT REDUCE THE SLIM LIKELIHOOD THAT A FEDERAL ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT REVIEW PROCESS MIGHT BE KICKED IN IN THE EVENT OF A BRIDGE GOING ACROSS A STREAM THAT ACTUALLY MIGHT HAVE SOME EFFECT ON MAINTAINING ENVIRONMENTAL INTEGRITY ON THE PROJECT. UM, IT'S THIS KIND OF HYSTERIA AND INCOHERENCE THAT I THINK IS ACTUALLY NOT SERVING THE ABORIGINAL INTEREST WHATSOEVER.

The caption changes to "Maintaining momentum."

Steve says RUSSELL, I WANT TO PICK UP THIS POINT WITH YOU. THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT WE HAVE SEEN ABORIGINAL COMMUNITIES, LEADERS, REPRESENTATIVES, IN THE NEWS OVER AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME BECAUSE OF CRISES. SOME PEOPLE ARE OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THE WHITE PAPER PIERRE TRUDEAU BROUGHT OUT IN 1969 WHICH CREATED ONE HECK OF A FIRESTORM. (CHUCKLING) I'M NOT ONE OF THEM. THERE OF COURSE WAS THE OKA CRISIS BACK IN THE 1990S, AND NOW WE HAVE IDLE NO MORE. I'M WONDERING IF, IN YOUR VIEW, THERE IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS TIME WITH IDLE NO MORE.

The caption changes to "Russell Diabo. Mohawk Nation at Kahnawake. Via Skype."

A map pops up briefly showing the location of Temiscaming, north of Toronto.

Russell says YES. THIS TIME, WE HAVE SMARTPHONES. WE HAVE FACEBOOK. WE HAVE TWITTER. WE HAVE A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE AND PEOPLE OF OTHER AGES WHO HAVE ADAPTED THAT TECHNOLOGY FOR US TO BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE AND ORGANIZE, GATHER AND MEET. AND I THINK IDLE NO MORE REALLY EMERGED USING THIS TECHNOLOGY AND SOCIAL MEDIA TO BE ABLE TO START TO GET TOGETHER TO DO THE FLASH MOBS, TO ORGANIZE THE DEMONSTRATIONS THAT ARE HAPPENING, TO COMMUNICATE MESSAGES. I MEAN, I'M ON TWITTER MYSELF AND FACEBOOK AT MY AGE. I'M ONE OF THE OLDER ONES. AND I'M SEEING WHAT'S BEING COMMUNICATED THROUGH THE IDLE NO MORE MOVEMENT. SO, TO SAY IT'S NOT A MOVEMENT, AS TERRY GLAVIN IS SAYING, I DON'T AGREE. BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I'M OLD ENOUGH TO BE INVOLVED IN POLITICAL MOVEMENTS MYSELF, FROM THE '70S ON, AND WITH THE AMERICAN INDIAN MOVEMENT AND OTHERS. AND I KNOW A MOVEMENT WHEN I SEE IT, AND THIS IS A MOVEMENT. AND I'VE BEEN IN COMMUNICATION WITH DIFFERENT LOCAL ORGANIZERS. IT'S CERTAINLY GROWN WAY BEYOND THE FOUR FOUNDERS. AND WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO PAM, I KNOW SHE'S BEEN OUT THERE IN FRONT, SPEAKING FOR IDLE NO MORE. THERE'S A LOT MORE PEOPLE THAT ARE ACTIVE LOCALLY AND REGIONALLY, AND THEY'RE NETWORKING UP THROUGH THE SOCIAL MEDIA AND TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE UPCOMING HARPER MEETING AND WHAT TO DO. AND SOME ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW, "LET'S DEMONSTRATE OUTSIDE." YOU KNOW, "WE DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO WITH INSIDE." SOME ARE SAYING THERE SHOULD BE A DELEGATION INSIDE. I MEAN, THERE IS NO REAL CONSENSUS FROM WHAT I CAN SEE. BUT THAT'S HEALTHY, AND THAT'S A DISCUSSION THAT'S GOING ON. SO, THIS IDLE NO MORE MOVEMENT, AS I SEE IT, I DO SAY IT'S A MOVEMENT. IT'S A SOCIAL AND POLITICAL MOVEMENT, WHERE IT'S BRINGING PEOPLE IN WHO HAVEN'T REALLY HAD A SAY OR A VOICE BEFORE IN WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON IN THE GOVERNANCE OF OUR COMMUNITY. AND DON'T FORGET: A LOT OF OUR PEOPLE ARE IN THE URBAN AREAS. THEY'RE NOT JUST IN THE CITIES. FOR VARIOUS REASONS, THEY'VE HAD TO MOVE THERE. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT'S NOT PART OF THEIR COMMUNITY. I DON'T LIVE IN MY HOME COMMUNITY, BUT IT'S STILL MY HOME COMMUNITY AND I'M STILL CONNECTED AND GO THERE AS OFTEN AS I CAN.

Steve says UNDERSTOOD.

Russell says AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. WHETHER WE'RE LIVING ON THE RESERVE OR OFF THE RESERVE, WE'RE STILL MEMBERS OF OUR COMMUNITIES AND OUR NATIONS. IN IT TOGETHER,

Steve says PAMELA, BUT I'M WONDERING HOW MUCH OF A GENERATION GAP YOU THINK THERE IS IN IDLE NO MORE.

Pamela says WELL, THAT'S THE GREAT THING ABOUT THIS PEOPLE'S MOVEMENT. THERE IS NO GENERATION GAP, BECAUSE THE ELDERS WERE CALLING ON GRASSROOTS PEOPLE AND LEADERS TO HAVE THIS MOVEMENT. YOUTH ARE INVOLVED. MEN AND WOMEN. YOU'VE GOT PEOPLE ON- AND OFF-RESERVE, STATUS AND NON-STATUS, TREATY AND NON-TREATY. YOU'VE GOT THE WHOLE VARIETY OF EVERYONE THAT IS REPRESENTED IN OUR COMMUNITIES, AND YOU ALSO HAVE THIS DIVERSITY OF VIEWS AND NATIONS, AND THAT'S OKAY. EVERY TIME YOU TRY TO PUT US ALL IN THE "INDIAN" LABEL AND WE'RE ALL ONE PEOPLE AND WE ALL HAVE THE SAME VIEWS, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE SO MANY PROBLEMS. BUT WHEN YOU ALLOW FOR THE DIVERSITY OF OUR NATIONS, ALL OF OUR DIFFERENT CULTURES AND BACKGROUNDS AND VIEWS AND IDEAS, THAT'S GREAT. SO, EVERYTHING THAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT HERE TODAY, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY UPSET WITH THEIR CHIEF AND COUNCIL. AND THEN, THERE'S OTHERS WHO VALUE THEIR CHIEF AND COUNCIL BECAUSE THEY'VE CHOSEN A TRADITIONAL PATH, OR THEY WORK WITH THEIR TRADITIONAL LEADERS. AND SO, YOU CAN'T REALLY PAINT ALL FIRST NATION LEADERS WITH THE SAME BRUSH. THERE ARE SOME GOOD PEOPLE DOING SOME REALLY GOOD WORK, AND THIS MOVEMENT RECOGNIZES THAT, WHILE ALSO RECOGNIZING THE PROBLEMS THAT DO EXIST IN MANY COMMUNITIES. AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S HEALTHY ABOUT THIS, THAT WE'RE ALLOWED TO BE DIFFERENT AND HAVE DIFFERENT IDEAS. AND YOU KNOW WHAT? IT MAY UPSET THE MEDIA THAT THEY CAN'T POINT A FINGER ON ONE SPECIFIC SLOGAN, BUT THAT'S OKAY, BECAUSE THAT'S WHO WE ARE AS DIVERSE NATIONS.

Steve says TERRY, CAN I GET YOU TO WEIGH IN ON THAT?

Russell says IF I COULD JUST ADD...

Steve says SORRY.

Russell says IDLE NO MORE IS ALSO ATTRACTING A LOT OF CANADIAN SUPPORT... WHO ARE GETTING INVOLVED. YOU KNOW, NON-ABORIGINAL PEOPLES AS WELL. AND THAT SHOULD BE NOTED, BECAUSE IT'S CONTRIBUTING TO A DIALOGUE IN THIS COUNTRY THAT'S LONG OVERDUE...

Pamela says YEAH...

Russell says BETWEEN ABORIGINAL AND NON-ABORIGINAL PEOPLES ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP. AND YOU KNOW, WHILE I'M TALKING ABOUT THIS, TO ME, THIS PROBLEM GOES BACK TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL TALKS IN THE 1980S. THEY FAILED TO RESOLVE WHAT THE MEANING OF SECTION 35 IN THE CONSTITUTION WAS, THE MEANING OF ABORIGINAL TREATY RIGHTS. AND THAT... UNTIL WE GET SOME CONSENSUS ON THE MEANING OF SECTION 35 ON BOTH SIDES, WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE RECONCILIATION, BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN DICTATING TO US THAT SECTION 35 IS EMPTY OF ANYTHING UNTIL WE SIGN AGREEMENTS WITH THEM. AND WE'VE BEEN SAYING TO THEM, "NO. SECTION 35 RECOGNIZES AND AFFIRMS OUR ABORIGINAL TREATY RIGHTS, AND WE HAVE TO HAVE CONSENSUS ON WHAT THAT MEANS IN THIS COUNTRY." THAT'S THE REAL ISSUE TO ME.

Steve says I SUSPECT YOU ALL SAW JEFFREY SIMPSON'S COLUMN IN THE NEWSPAPER, IN THE GLOBE AND MAIL, OVER THE WEEKEND, AND I WANT TO READ JUST A SNIPPET OF IT HERE AND THEN, TERRY, I'LL GET YOU TO COMMENT ON THIS FIRST AND WE CAN FINISH UP ON THIS. IT'S CALLED "LIVING IN A DREAM PALACE?" AND JEFFREY WRITES...

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Living in a Dream Palace?" The quote reads "Too many communities remain within the dream palace, hungering for a return to a more separate existence, even if the lands on which they sit are – and likely always will be – of marginal economic value. Attawapiskat, Chief Spence's community, is subject to severe flooding, given its location on the James Bay plain, but it refused to consider moving farther upriver or near Timmins, where there might be employment opportunities. To imagine that isolated communities of a thousand or so people can be vibrant and self-sustaining, capable of discharging the panoply of responsibilities of 'sovereignty,' is to live within the dream palace of memory. –Jeffery Simpson, The Globe and Mail, January 5, 2013."

Steve says LET'S GO AROUND ON THIS. TERRY GLAVIN, YOUR COMMENTS ON THAT?

Terry says IT'S VERY RARE THAT I SEE SOMETHING, A KERNEL IN A JEFFREY SIMPSON COLUMN, THAT I AGREE WITH. I DO SEE SOMETHING OF A KERNEL IN THAT COLUMN THAT I'VE ACTUALLY HEARD ABORIGINAL PEOPLE ARTICULATE TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN. ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THIS PHENOMENON, WHETHER IT'S A MOVEMENT OR NOT... I JUST... WHATEVER. I'M HOPEFUL THAT IT MIGHT BE. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE NOTICED ABOUT THIS PHENOMENON IS THAT THERE IS A BIT OF THAT DREAM PALACE STUFF THAT PERMEATES MOST OF THESE EVENTS. IN THAT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE OXYGEN FOR THIS HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY THE SORT OF ACTIVIST CONSTITUENCIES THAT WERE ANTI-GLOBALIZATION AND OCCUPISTS. AND ONE THING I FIND A LITTLE BIT DISCONCERTING IS THAT THERE'S KIND OF AN INDIAN-IN-THE-CUPBOARD THING GOING ON HERE, THAT ABORIGINAL PEOPLE ARE PERFECTLY OKAY IF THEY SHOW UP AND THEY DO SMUDGE CEREMONIES AND THEY'RE IN THEIR REGALIA, AND THEY CHANT AND THEY DRUM AND THEY TALK ABOUT SACRED THIS AND SACRED THAT. BUT GOD FORBID SHOULD ABORIGINAL PEOPLE NOT ONLY PUT UP ROADBLOCKS BUT DECIDE HOW TO LIFT THE ROADBLOCKS. WHO GETS TO COME IN? WHAT LOGGING COMPANIES, MINING COMPANIES, WILL BE ALLOWED TO OPERATE ON THE TRADITIONAL TERRITORY, UNDER WHAT TERMS AND CONDITIONS? WHO GETS THE JOBS? HOW MUCH DO THEY PAY? WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PRODUCT? WHERE DOES IT GO? THESE ARE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT... ALL OF THE DIFFICULT CHALLENGES THAT FACE ABORIGINAL COMMUNITIES IN THE MILITANT ASSERTION OF THEIR RIGHTS TO SELF-GOVERNMENT AND THEIR RIGHTS TO OWNERSHIP AND JURISDICTION OVER THEIR LANDS. AND I AGREE. THERE'S A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, TURTLE ISLAND, MOTHER EARTH. I'VE HEARD IT BEFORE. AND I MEAN, RUSSELL... I HOPE RUSSELL IS RIGHT AND I'M WRONG ON THIS. I HOPE THAT A MOVEMENT MIGHT ACTUALLY EMERGE, THAT SOME YOUNG ABORIGINAL PEOPLE MIGHT ACTUALLY ASSERT SOME LEADERSHIP IN THE VANGUARD OF THIS AND START ASSERTING SOME DISCIPLINE AROUND SOME IDENTIFIABLE AND ACHIEVABLE GOALS. BUT RIGHT NOW, YEAH. I THINK THERE ACTUALLY IS A LOT OF THE SORT OF FAIRY LAND, DREAM PALACE... YOU KNOW, LET'S DRESS UP AND BANG DRUMS. I MEAN, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, TOO. I THINK IT'S REALLY ENCOURAGING FOR A LOT OF YOUNG ABORIGINAL PEOPLE TO SEE THAT THERE'S ACTUALLY A GREAT, DEEP RESERVOIR OF SUPPORT AND SYMPATHY AND EMPATHY AMONG THE NON-ABORIGINAL COMMUNITIES. THAT STUFF IS FINE, BUT IT'S GOT TO MOVE ON FROM HERE. OTHERWISE, IT'S JUST GOING TO COLLAPSE UNDER THE WEIGHT OF ITS MANY CONTRADICTIONS.

Steve says LET ME GET CYNTHIA'S VIEW ON JEFFREY SIMPSON'S PIECE. "THE DREAM PALACE OF MEMORY." IS WHAT HE CALLED IT.

The caption changes to "Cynthia Wesley-Esquimaux. University of Toronto."

Cynthia says YOU KNOW, NATIVE PEOPLE IN CANADA SEE THEMSELVES AS DIFFERENT. IT'S A VERY FUNDAMENTAL WAY, WHETHER IT'S PHILOSOPHY OR SPIRITUAL PRACTICES OR THEIR BELIEF SYSTEMS WHEN IT COMES TO THE WORLD AROUND THEM. AND THEY'VE MAINTAINED THAT. IT'S 2013, AND THEY'VE STILL MAINTAINED THAT. SO, THAT SHOULD TELL PEOPLE THAT IT'S A FUNDAMENTAL SENSE OF WHO THEY ARE. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT THEY'RE DREAMING UP OR THEY'RE IN MEMORY OF. THEY REALLY DO WANT TO MAINTAIN THE INTEGRITY OF THEIR CULTURES AND THEIR COMMUNITIES, THEIR LANGUAGES. AND THEY WANT TO...

Steve says I THINK PEOPLE GET THAT. IT'S THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS TOO MUCH STUCK IN THE PAST AND NOT ENOUGH RECOGNITION OF TODAY'S REALITIES.

Cynthia says NO. WE HAVE PEOPLE SITTING AT THIS TABLE WHO HAVE DOCTORATES AND WHO ARE WORKING IN UNIVERSITIES, AND WE HAVE PEOPLE WORKING IN THE MINES THAT ARE WORKING ALONGSIDE EVERYBODY ELSE. AND WE HAVE PEOPLE LIVING IN EUROPE, AND WE HAVE PEOPLE FLYING AIRPLANES. I MEAN, THE REALITIES ARE THAT WE ARE AS DIVERSE IN OUR SOCIETY AS ANYBODY IS DIVERSE IN THEIR SOCIETIES, AND I THINK THAT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE'S NEVER BEEN ANY KIND OF REAL RESPECT FOR THE FACT THAT WE'VE ASSERTED, TIME AND TIME AGAIN, THERE WERE TREATIES MADE IN THIS COUNTRY. THERE WAS A RELATIONSHIP THAT WAS FORMED AND WAS NEVER REALLY UPHELD. THE LANDS THAT WE SIT ON AND CONTINUE TO LIVE ON NEED TO BE IN OUR HANDS AND PROTECTED. THERE'S NO RESPECT FOR THAT. OUR WOMEN ARE TREATED MARGINALLY. THERE'S RAPE GOING ON IN THUNDER BAY RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF, YOU KNOW, IN THE NAME OF. THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS GOING ON THAT WANT TO REMOVE PEOPLE FROM THEIR LANDS AND FROM THEIR RESOURCES. AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, IT'S A FOUR-LETTER WORD THAT KEEPS US DIVIDED, AND IT'S "LAND."

Steve says HAYDEN, YOUR VIEW?

Hayden says UM, I THINK THAT THE SIMPSON COLUMN IS UNFORTUNATE ON THE ONE HAND, YOU KNOW? I MEAN, I GUESS FOR SOME PEOPLE, NATIVE PEOPLE ASSERTING THEIR RIGHTS IS SCARY. MAYBE A NIGHTMARE AS OPPOSED TO A DREAM, FOR PEOPLE LIKE SIMPSON. BUT YOU KNOW, ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE'S SOME MERIT TO WHAT HE HAS TO SAY, IN THE SENSE THAT WE HAVEN'T FULLY DEFINED, UH, WHAT INDIGENOUS NATIONHOOD MEANS. I THINK IF ANYTHING IMPORTANT COMES OUT OF IDLE NO MORE, IT'S THAT NATIONS START COMING TOGETHER AND START ARTICULATING THEIR VISION OF NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS AND NATIONAL MOVEMENTS, AND NEGOTIATING WITH CANADA BASED ON A NATION-TO-NATION BASIS. I MEAN, MAYBE SIMPSON IS RIGHT THAT THAT WORK HASN'T BEEN DONE YET. BUT IT IS BEING DONE. WE'RE WORKING ON IT. AND IF ANYTHING COMES OUT OF IDLE NO MORE, I HOPE IT'S THAT.

Steve says WELL, I THINK FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, JEFFREY SIMPSON WOULD BE THE LAST GUY TO SAY THAT THERE ISN'T A LONG, PROUD... TWO MINUTES TO GO? LONG AND PROUD TRADITION OF MANY ABORIGINAL COMMUNITIES IN THIS COUNTRY THAT MAKE US PART OF WHAT WE ARE ALL HERE. BUT I THINK HE'S SAYING THAT THERE'S TOO MUCH STUCK IN THE PAST, IN COMPLETELY UNSUSTAINABLE COMMUNITIES, AND PAMELA, HE THINKS PEOPLE HAVE GOT TO STOP DREAMING, LIVING IN THIS DREAM PALACE OF MEMORY. DOES HE HAVE A POINT?

Pamela says NO. HE DOESN'T HAVE A POINT. MEMORY AND HISTORY AND CULTURE AND TRADITION IS WHAT MAKES ALL OF OUR SOCIETIES. I MEAN, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A CONSTITUTION. I MEAN, THAT'S BASED ON ALL OF YOUR MANY, MANY CENTURIES OF LAWS AND VALUES AND PRINCIPLES. AND THE SAME FOR US. WHY SHOULD CANADIANS BE ABLE TO LIVE THE GOOD LIFE BUT NOT FIRST NATIONS, THE WAY WE WANT TO LIVE THE GOOD LIFE? AND IT'S REALLY A MYTH TO THINK THAT SOMEONE'S LOCATION PROHIBITS THEM FROM LIVING THE GOOD LIFE THE WAY THEY WANT TO. WE LIVED HERE SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL, AND WE LIVED HERE JUST FINE. THERE'S A MINE OUTSIDE OF ATTAWAPISKAT. IT'S NOT THAT THERE'S NO RESOURCES IN THESE NORTHERN COMMUNITIES. AND NOW THAT YOU CAN SEE, SOME OF THE RICHEST RESOURCES IN THIS COUNTRY ARE IN THE NORTH. SO, IT'S NOT THAT THERE'S NO RESOURCES OR THERE'S NO EMPLOYMENT. IT'S THAT FIRST NATIONS DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THEIR OWN LANDS AND RESOURCES. THAT'S WHAT THE REAL ISSUE IS.

The caption changes to "theagenda.tvo.org."

Steve says AND THAT'S GOING TO BE THE LAST WORD TODAY. I WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY FOR COMING IN AND HELPING US WITH THIS MOST IMPORTANT CONVERSATION TODAY. OUT IN VICTORIA, BRITISH COLUMBIA, VIA SKYPE, TERRY GLAVIN, THE COLUMNIST WITH THE OTTAWA CITIZEN. TERRY, THANKS FOR BEING THERE OUT WEST FOR US TODAY. IN TÉMISCAMING, QUÉBEC, VIA SKYPE, RUSSELL DIABO, EDITOR OF THE FIRST NATIONS STRATEGIC BULLETIN. RUSSELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH AS WELL FOR BEING THERE JUST EAST OF US. AND HERE IN STUDIO, PAMELA PALMATER, IDLE NO MORE ORGANIZER, CHAIR IN INDIGENOUS GOVERNANCE AT RYERSON UNIVERSITY. HAYDEN KING, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF POLITICS, RYERSON UNIVERSITY. CYNTHIA WESLEY-ESQUIMAUX, NEXEN CHAIR IN INDIGENOUS LEADERSHIP AT THE BANFF CENTRE.

An animated slate reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

The clips end and Nam stands in the studio alone. She says And that's it for tonight's AGENDA IN THE SUMMER. THE DROWNED BODY OF A SMALL BOY ON A BEACH IN TURKEY MOVED THE WORLD AND CANADA TO RESPOND TO THE PLIGHT OF SYRIANS FLEEING WAR. TOMORROW, WE LOOK BACK AT THAT. I'M NAM KIWANUKA. THANKS FOR WATCHING TVO AND FOR JOINING US ONLINE AT TVO.ORG, AND WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN TOMORROW.

The Announcer says The Agenda in the Summer WITH NAM KIWANUKA IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH GENEROUS PHILANTHROPIC CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING TVO'S JOURNALISM.

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