Transcript: Housing Solutions for Older Ontarians | Jul 19, 2021

An animated slate reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

A female announcer says THE AGENDA IN THE SUMMER WITH NAM KIWANUKA IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH GENEROUS PHILANTHROPIC CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING TVO'S JOURNALISM.

Nam stands in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length straight brown hair. She's wearing glasses, a mint green blazer over a black shirt, and a golden pendant necklace.

A wall screen behind her reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

Nam says PERHAPS NOTHING DURING THIS PANDEMIC WAS AS ACUTE AND PAINFUL AS THE ISSUE OF WHERE MANY SENIORS LIVE. I'M NAM KIWANUKA. THIS WEEK ON THE AGENDA IN THE SUMMER, WE WILL BE GOING BACK INTO THE ARCHIVES AND SHARING SOME OF THE STORIES THAT RESONATED IN POWERFUL WAYS. TONIGHT, A PROGRAM WE AIRED BACK IN 2019 ABOUT BETTER WAYS TO MEET THE HOUSING NEEDS OF THOSE IN THEIR LATER YEARS.

Music plays as an animated slate reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

Nam says FIRST UP TONIGHT, YOU'LL MEET PAT DUNN, ONE OF PORT PERRY, ONTARIO'S SO-CALLED "GOLDEN GIRLS." SINCE THIS CONVERSATION, SHE STARTED A NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATION THAT'S RECEIVED SUBSTANTIAL GRANTS FROM THE CANADIAN WOMEN'S FOUNDATION AND THE NEW HORIZONS FOR SENIORS. THE ORGANIZATION AIMS TO COME UP WITH A PLAN FOR HOW TO SUSTAINABLY HELP ONTARIO SENIORS FIND ALTERNATIVE LIVING ARRANGEMENTS. THEY RECENTLY LAUNCHED THE WEBSITE SWLT.CA, WHICH STANDS FOR SINGLE WOMEN LIVING TOGETHER. IT HELPS WOMEN OVER 55 WHO LIVE ALONE FIND COMPATIBLE HOMEMATES. THEY HOPE TO EXPAND IT ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN ABOUT A YEAR. THEN, WE'LL HEAR FROM EXPERTS, FROM A TIME BEFORE THE TERRIBLE TOLL OF THIS PANDEMIC IN LONG TERM CARE, ABOUT FINDING A RANGE OF HOUSING OPTIONS FOR OLDER ONTARIANS.

An animated slate reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

In a clip, Steve sits in the studio with guests. He's in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue suit, white shirt and spotted blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Shared housing: Affordable living for seniors. Ontario's 'Golden Girls.'"

Steve says LET'S FIGURE THIS OUT, 'CAUSE YOU'RE A FORMER DEAN AT HUMBER COLLEGE.

A guest says YES.

Steve says AND SUDDENLY YOU HAVE SORT OF STRUCK ON AN IDEA THAT SEEMS TO BE A REAL SOLUTION FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE. EXPLAIN WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

The caption changes to "Louise Bardswich. Retiree."

Louise is in her sixties, with short gray hair. She's wearing a gray sweater and a blue scarf.

A picture shows a yellow two-story detached house.

She says WELL, FOUR OF US IN PORT PERRY, ALL OLDER WOMEN, UM, SOLD OUR OWN HOMES AND BOUGHT A HOUSE TOGETHER, AND REALLY OUR PLAN IN DOING THAT WAS TO TRY TO TAKE CONTROL OF OUR AGING. WE INTEND TO AGE IN PLACE. WHAT WE REALLY MEAN IS WE INTEND TO DIE IN PLACE. THAT'S WHERE WE'RE GOING TO SPEND THE REST OF OUR LIVES, WE HOPE.

Steve says SHELDON, DO YOU WANT TO PUT THE PICTURE UP AND WE'LL BE ABLE TO SEE? YOU'VE KINDLY ALLOWED US TO SHOW A PICTURE HERE. THAT'S YOUR PLACE?

The picture of the house appears again.

Louise says THAT'S OUR PLACE.

Steve says THAT'S BEAUTIFUL.

Louise says YEAH, IT'S PRETTY COOL. AS I WAS SAYING, IT'S NICER THAN WHAT ANY ONE OF US COULD HAVE AFFORDED BY OURSELVES, AND IT'S RIGHT DOWNTOWN, WHICH I THINK FOR SENIORS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT.

Steve says BECAUSE YOU'RE ENGAGED AND YOU GET TO SEE OTHER PEOPLE.

The caption changes to "Originally aired September 12, 2019."

Louise says WE'RE ENGAGED. WE CAN WALK TO THINGS. YOU KNOW, ONCE WE LOSE OUR LICENCES, WE'RE STILL GOING TO BE OKAY.

Steve says THAT'S GOING TO BE A LONG TIME AWAY FROM YOU, YOU KNOW THAT.

Louise says I SINCERELY HOPE SO.

Steve says YES, I'M SURE. NOW, AS LONG AS I'M BEING A SMART ALEC HERE, ARE YOU BETTY WHITE OR ARE YOU BEA ARTHUR? WHICH ONE ARE YOU?

(LAUGHING)

Louise says I THINK I MIGHT BE A LITTLE COMBINATION OF BOTH. A LITTLE BIT BOSSY, BUT NOT TOO BRIGHT.

Steve says GOTCHA.

(LAUGHING)

Steve says SHELDON, YOU WANT TO BRING THE NEXT SHOT UP AS WELL? CAN WE SEE LOUISE'S HOUSE MATES? SO, THAT'S THE GANG.

In a picture four older women with short white hair pose smiling as they hold wine glasses on the porch.

Louise says THAT'S THE GANG.

Steve says NOW, HOW DID YOU ALL AGREE THAT YOU COULD LIVE TOGETHER AMICABLY?

Louise says WE DIDN'T... WE PROBABLY DIDN'T HANDLE IT AS WELL AS WE WOULD RECOMMEND OTHER PEOPLE DID, ALTHOUGH WE WERE VERY LUCKY IN HOW IT TURNED OUT. WITH IT BEING A RELATIVELY NEW CONCEPT, IT'S SURPRISINGLY HARD TO GET PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY PUT MONEY DOWN ON THE TABLE, AND SAY, "YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GOING TO GO INTO IT." SO, VERY EARLY ON MARTHA AND I HAD BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT, KNEW IT WAS THE BEST APPROACH, YOU KNOW, FINANCIALLY FOR OUR... EACH OF US. AND THEN WE... WHEN THE BUILDER APPROACHED US AND WE FOUND A PROPERTY THAT WAS GOING TO NEED FOUR PEOPLE, WE JUST WENT THROUGH A PROCESS OF TRYING TO FIND THE OTHERS. BEV CAME IN EARLY, AND THEN AT THE VERY END WE MANAGED TO FIND SANDY.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Steve says AND YOU'VE BEEN TOGETHER THREE YEARS NOW?

Louise says IT WILL BE THREE YEARS IN NOVEMBER.

Steve says THREE YEARS IN NOVEMBER. HOW'S IT WORKING OUT?

Louise says IT'S WORKING OUT REMARKABLY WELL. MUCH BETTER THAN I HAD EVER THOUGHT IT WOULD, FRANKLY.

Steve says WHAT DID YOU WORRY ABOUT?

Louise says I LIVED ALONE FOR 13 YEARS, AND I REALLY, REALLY WORRIED ABOUT LIVING WITH OTHER PEOPLE AND WHETHER, YOU KNOW, WE WOULD GET ON EACH OTHER'S NERVES, OR WHATEVER. AS IT TURNS OUT, THOUGH, WE HAVE LOTS OF PRIVACY. SO, WHEN I'M GETTING THAT KIND OF FEELING I NEED TO BE ALONE, I CAN DO THAT, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT'S LOVELY TO WAKE UP IN THE MORNING AND YOU HEAR PEOPLE TALKING DOWNSTAIRS AND GO DOWNSTAIRS AND SHARE A CUP OF COFFEE AND LOOK AT THE NEWS AND TALK ABOUT ALL THE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON AND THE GOOD THINGS. IT'S GREAT. IT'S REALLY NICE.

Steve says IT WAS A BIT CONTROVERSIAL FOR A LITTLE WHILE, RIGHT? LIKE, THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION HAD TO GET INVOLVED?

Louise says YES, IT WAS CONTROVERSIAL IN OUR LITTLE TOWN, AND THAT'S PARTLY WHERE THE GOLDEN GIRLS ACT CAME IN, THE MOTIVATION FOR IT. IT WAS ACTUALLY NOT OUR PROPERTY. IT WAS A PREVIOUS PROPERTY THAT THE SAME BUILDER WAS DOING, BUT A COUPLE OF US WERE INVOLVED IN HELPING HIM PROMOTE IT BECAUSE WE HAD SORT OF BROUGHT THE IDEA TO TOWN, OF SHARED LIVING. AND SO WE GOT VERY INVOLVED IN THAT, BUT HE WAS TURNED DOWN ON A BUILDING PERMIT FOR A PREVIOUS PROJECT THAT WOULD HAVE HAD SIX PEOPLE LIVING TOGETHER, AND WE GOT INTO A HUGE FIGHT OVER IT. AT THE END OF THE DAY... YOU KNOW, THE FINAL... IT'S LIKE THE BAD NEWS BEARS. THE LAST MINUTE THE ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS PEOPLE STEPPED IN AND SAID, "GIVE YOUR HEAD A SHAKE, TOWN. YOU CAN'T DO THAT," AND SO THEY ELIMINATED ALL OF THE LANGUAGE THEY WERE THINKING OF PUTTING INTO THEIR BUILDING CODE.

Steve says AND ALL'S WELL THAT ENDS WELL.

Louise says ALL'S WELL THAT ENDS WELL. BY THE TIME WE GOT READY TO DO OUR PROJECT, IT WAS CLEAR SAILING, NO ISSUES AT ALL.

Steve says GOOD.

Louise says YES.

Steve says PAT, YOU'RE INVOLVED IN THIS FROM THE FACEBOOK, SOCIAL MEDIA POINT OF VIEW.

Pat says THAT'S CORRECT.

Steve says TELL ME HOW YOU GOT INVOLVED IN THIS ISSUE.

The caption changes to "Pat. Dunn. Senior Ladies Living Together."

Pat is in her seventies, with shoulder-length curly white hair. She's wearing a purple sweater, pink vest and blue scarf.

She says WELL, IT CAME OUT OF MY OWN NEED AS A WIDOW AND A LOW-INCOME PENSIONER. I REALIZED THERE WAS NO WAY THAT I WAS GOING TO BE ABLE TO FIND ANYTHING THAT I COULD AFFORD TO LIVE IN, AND THEN I DIDN'T WANT TO LIVE ALONE. SO, I THOUGHT THERE MUST BE OTHER LADIES LIKE ME. SO, I PUT IT OUT ON FACEBOOK TO PETERBOROUGH AND LINDSAY AREA, FIGURING MAYBE TEN LADIES WOULD COME AND CHAT WITH ME ABOUT IT...

A screenshot shows the Facebook page for Senior Ladies Living Together.

Pat continues AND FIRST WEEK THERE WAS 58, AND 50 THE NEXT WEEK, AND 50 THE NEXT WEEK. AND SO I THOUGHT, OKAY, BIGGER THAN ME. AND, SO, I EITHER STOP OR I GO FORWARD, BUT I HAVE TO GO FORWARD AS PROVIDING SOME SUPPORT TO ALL THESE LADIES. SO, THAT'S WHAT I CHOSE TO DO, AND IT'S BECOME MY PASSION AND MY LIFE.

Steve says WHEN YOU CREATED THIS FACEBOOK SITE, DID YOU IMAGINE THAT IT... THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TAPPED A NERVE THE WAY YOU HAVE?

Pat says NO, I HAD NO IDEA. NO IDEA. I'VE LEARNED SO MUCH. EVERY DAY I LEARN SO MUCH.

Steve says LIKE WHAT?

Pat says OH, GOSH. WELL, JUST MORE ABOUT THE WIDTH AND BREADTH OF THE PROBLEM OF HOUSING, MULTIPLE LAYERED PROBLEMS OF HOUSING IN ONTARIO. THE ISSUES OF LONELINESS AND HOW THAT AFFECTS OUR WELL-BEING AS WELL AS OUR ACTUAL PHYSICAL HEALTH, AND THE ISSUES OF HOW, HOW DOES ONE HAVE THE SUCCESS THAT THESE LADIES HAVE HAD, AND HOW DO I HELP PEOPLE TO FIND THE RIGHT FIT, TO BUILD HOMEMATE AGREEMENTS THAT HAVE SUBSTANCE AND ARE MANAGEABLE, THAT SORT OF THING. SO, GOSH, I MEAN, I JUST, I LEARN EVERY DAY.

Steve says THAT IS KIND OF THE TRICKY PART OF THIS, RIGHT? YOU NOT ONLY NEED PEOPLE WHOSE NEEDS MATCH UP, BUT WHO HAVE PERSONALITIES THAT WILL BE AGREEABLE TO ONE ANOTHER.

Pat says EXACTLY.

Steve says AND WHO ARE NOT, I GUESS, TOO AFRAID TO FACE THE LEGAL ISSUES HEAD ON, BECAUSE AT SOME POINT, I MEAN, LOUISE, YOU KIND OF SAID IT, YOU KNOW, AT ONE POINT YOU'RE NOT ALL GOING TO BE LIVING TOGETHER...

Pat says ABSOLUTELY...

Steve says AND I GUESS THERE'S ISSUES OF WHO'S GOING TO INHERIT MY QUARTER OF THIS SITUATION, ALL OF THAT.

Pat says WELL, IN MY CASE, IN MY SITUATION, IT'S ALL ABOUT RENTING. WE DON'T HAVE THE MEANS TO PURCHASE, ANY... NONE OF US DO. SO, WE, UH, WE ARE FINDING RENTALS, AND THEN OF COURSE... AND LIVING IN RENTALS. AND SO THERE'S NOT THE SAME, UM, KINDS OF ISSUES, BUT THERE'S DIFFERENT ONES...

Steve says RIGHT...

Pat says THAT LIMIT US, LIKE THE RENTAL MARKET. YOU KNOW, THERE'S ZERO VACANCY RATE IN PETERBOROUGH RIGHT NOW, BUT THERE IS LOTS OF HOUSES FOR SALE. SO, THAT, YOU KNOW, BECOMES ANOTHER ISSUE, YEAH.

Steve says RIGHT. IF THIS GETS TOO PERSONAL, YOU JUST SAY, "PAIKIN, YOU MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS HERE," OKAY?

Pat says NO, NO. I CAN SAY IT. I TALK ABOUT ANYTHING.

Steve says OKAY. YOU WERE MARRIED.

Pat says I WAS.

Steve says HOW LONG AGO DID YOUR HUSBAND PASS AWAY?

Pat says IT WILL BE FIVE YEARS IN NOVEMBER.

Steve says FIVE YEARS, AND YOU LIVED TOGETHER IN A HOME THAT YOU OWNED AT THAT POINT?

Pat says NO, ACTUALLY, WE LIVED ON A BOAT.

Steve says YOU LIVED ON A BOAT?

Pat says YEAH, WE MET WHEN WE WERE IN OUR EARLY 50S AFTER BOTH BEING DIVORCED, AND WE WERE BOTH BOATERS AND WE DECIDED WE WANTED THAT KIND OF FUTURE, SO WE BOUGHT A BOAT AND LIVED ON IT, AND THEN WE TRAVELLED IN THE CARIBBEAN. HE DIED WHILE WE WERE IN MEXICO.

Steve says THAT SOUNDS VERY ROMANTIC, THOUGH.

Pat says IT WAS. AND WHY WAS IT NO LONGER AN OPTION FOR YOU TO LIVE ON THE BOAT AFTER HE DIED?

Pat says WELL, THE BOAT WAS COSTING ME 1000 dollars U.S. JUST TO HAVE IT SIT IN... IN THE MARINA IN FLORIDA. SO, THAT WASN'T GOING TO WORK. AND WE HAD LOST A LOT OF MONEY, BOTH OF US, IN THE 2008 OF OUR PENSIONS AND POSSIBILITY AND OUR INVESTMENTS, I GUESS.

Steve says YEAH.

Pat says SO, WE HAD... SO, I CAME BACK REALLY TO CANADA WITHOUT HIM AND WITH NO MONEY.

Steve says SO, THE STATUS QUO WAS NO LONGER AN OPTION.

Pat says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says YOU HAD TO FIND AN ALTERNATIVE MEANS OF HOUSING YOURSELF GOING FORWARD.

Pat says AND I COULDN'T WAIT FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO DO... TO MAKE CHANGES NEEDED. YOU KNOW, THEY'VE KNOWN WE'VE BEEN BABY BOOMERS COMING ALONG FOR A LONG TIME, AND STILL THERE'S NOT ENOUGH RENTAL SPACES, RENT GEARED TO INCOME IS REALLY LIMITED AND A FIVE, TEN-YEAR WAIT WHEN I'M ALREADY 69. SO I THOUGHT, "OKAY, WELL, IF I HAVE TO DO IT MYSELF, I'LL DO IT MYSELF."

Steve says SO, YOU PUT THIS GROUP TOGETHER. HOW MANY PEOPLE ALL TOGETHER ON THIS FACEBOOK GROUP?

Pat says 1536.

Steve says OKAY! SO, IT'S A THING.

Pat says THAT'S WHAT I SAY. IT'S A BIG ISSUE.

Steve says AND HAVE YOU RESOLVED YOUR OWN HOUSING SITUATION YET?

Pat says ALMOST. I HAVE MET MY THREE LADIES. SO, THERE'S FOUR OF US, LOUISE HERE, AND WE'VE GONE THROUGH A PROCESS OF GETTING TO KNOW EACH OTHER, OF FINDING THE RIGHT FIT AMONGST US, AND NOW WE HAVE... WE'RE LOOKING FOR A HOUSE TO RENT.

Steve says HOUSE TO RENT. MM-HM. IN PETERBOROUGH?

Pat says IN PETERBOROUGH.

Steve says GOTCHA.

Pat says SO, WHICH IS AWKWARD, 'CAUSE THERE'S NOT VERY MUCH TO RENT, BUT I JUST HAD A CONVERSATION WITH A REAL ESTATE INVESTOR WHO LIVES IN OTTAWA, A FEMALE, AND SHE'S INTERESTED IN BEING, YOU KNOW, HELPING WITH SOCIAL ISSUES, AND SO SHE'S TALKING ABOUT BUYING A HOUSE FOR US AND RENTING IT TO US LONG TERM.

Steve says SO...

Pat says SO YOU JUST KIND OF PUT IT OUT THERE AND THINGS START TO HAPPEN. AND WHY WAS IT NOT AN OPTION FOR YOU TO DO WHAT MANY OTHER PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY DO, WHICH IS TO MOVE INTO SOME KIND OF RETIREMENT RESIDENCE, OR THAT KIND OF THING?

Louise says I COULD HAVE, AND REALLY WHAT MOTIVATED OUR MOVE IN THIS DIRECTION WAS WATCHING MY MOM MOVE INTO A RETIREMENT HOME IN PORT PERRY, WHICH WAS WONDERFUL FOR HER. SHE LOVED IT. IT KIND OF CREEPED ME OUT, TO TELL THE TRUTH.

Steve says WHAT ABOUT IT CREEPED YOU OUT?

Louise says JUST THE FORCED TOGETHERNESS. SO, SHE WAS HAVING DINNER WITH PEOPLE THAT SHE DIDN'T CHOOSE NECESSARILY TO HAVE DINNER WITH EVERY DAY, AND ACTIVITIES THAT YOU WERE ENCOURAGED TO GO TO THAT YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE WANTED TO. IT JUST... IT DIDN'T... I DIDN'T WANT TO BE THAT ORGANIZED. AND IF I WAS GOING TO HAVE MEAT LOAF ON TUESDAY, I WANTED THAT TO BE MY CHOICE THAT I WAS HAVING MEAT LOAF ON TUESDAY. SO, IT WAS AROUND GETTING CONTROL. IT WAS ALSO THE COST, THOUGH. THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL DRIVER, REALLY. WHEN I WAS RESEARCHING PLACES FOR MY MOM, I ASKED HOW MUCH RETIREMENT HOMES WERE GOING UP EVERY YEAR, AND ASKED FOR THE HISTORY, AND THEY SEEMED TO AT THAT POINT HAVE BEEN GOING UP 3 PERCENT A YEAR. SO, HAVING A MATH BACKGROUND, I TOOK A LOOK AT WHAT IT WAS GOING TO COST MY MOM, THOUGHT OF MYSELF MAYBE 20 YEARS OUT, WHAT THAT WOULD BE, AND DID THE CALCULATION AND REALIZED IT WASN'T IN THE CARDS. I WAS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD THAT. UNLESS, YOU KNOW, FOR SURE YOU'RE GOING TO DIE QUICK. (LAUGHING) I'VE GOT THIS DEATH THING GOING ON, BUT REALLY, YOU KNOW, AT THAT STAGE MY MOM LOOKED LIKE SHE WAS GOING TO LIVE TO BE 100 AND I WASN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD A RETIREMENT HOME FOR THAT KIND OF TIME.

Steve says IS THE PLAN FOR YOU AND YOUR THREE HOUSEMATES TO BE IN THAT HOUSE FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIVES?

Louise says THAT'S THE PLAN. NOW WE ALSO RECOGNIZE THERE COULD BE OTHER... YOU KNOW, IF THERE ARE HEALTH ISSUES THAT MEAN YOU HAVE TO MOVE OUT, THAT'S ONE THING. WE ALSO RECOGNIZE THERE COULD BE PERSONALITY CHANGES AS PEOPLE AGE, SO THAT'S ALL PART OF OUR LEGAL AGREEMENT, AND PEOPLE IN THAT CASE COULD BE KIND OF VOTED OFF THE ISLAND.

The clip ends and another plays, with the caption "The right homes for seniors. Too much house?"

A RECENT CMHC, CANADA MORTGAGE AND HOUSING REPORT FOUND THAT SENIORS ARE STAYING IN THEIR FAMILY-SIZED HOMES FOR LONGER. THEY ARE DOWNSIZING LATER THAN PERHAPS IN EARLY DAYS. WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS, IN YOUR VIEW, OF THAT?

The caption changes to "Zayna Khayat. S.E. Health."

Zayna is in her late thirties, with long wavy brown hair. She's wearing a gray blazer over a white blouse, and a silver necklace.

She says YES, SO I DON'T THINK ANYONE WILL BE SURPRISED THAT OLDER ADULTS ARE STAYING LONGER IN THEIR FAMILY HOMES. A HOME IS A FEELING, AND WE ALL WANT TO BE HOME. I WAS REFLECTING WHEN BIANCA ANDREESCU ARRIVED IN MISSISSAUGA. SHE SAID, "WHAT DO I WANT TO DO? I WANT TO GO TO MY BED AND SLEEP IN MY BED," BUT THE IMPLICATIONS BECOME MULTI-FOLD, AND YOU MENTIONED A FEW OF THEM IN YOUR OPENING. SO, FIRST IS SOMETIMES BECAUSE THEY'RE DRAWN TO HOME AND THE COMMUNITY AROUND THAT HOME, THAT HOUSING MIGHT NOT BE THE MOST APPROPRIATE FOR THEIR NEEDS OR FOR THEIR FINANCES, BUT WHAT THE CMHC REPORT ALSO SHOWS IS THERE ARE NOT OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE, AND THAT'S A LOT OF WHERE NOW THE POLICY DISCUSSIONS ARE GOING.

Steve says TO FIND SOME OPTIONS THAT ARE AVAILABLE.

Zayna says IN THEIR COMMUNITY. IN THEIR COMMUNITY.

Steve says CHERYLL, HOW WOULD YOU ANSWER THAT, THE IMPLICATIONS OF PEOPLE STAYING AT HOME FOR LONGER?

The caption changes to "Cheryll Case. C.P. Planning."

Cheryll is in her thirties, with curly black hair in a bun. She's wearing rounded glasses and a black sweater over a white shirt.

She says WELL, THE IMPLICATIONS OF THAT IS IN THE GTA THERE ARE 5 MILLION EMPTY BEDROOMS, AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS NOT THAT THE SENIORS, AGAIN, HAVE TO MOVE OUT, BUT THAT DOES POINT, AGAIN, TO THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, THE HOUSING SUPPLY ISN'T REFLECTING THE NEEDS OF THE POPULATION.

Steve says 5 MILLION EMPTY BEDROOMS?

Cheryll says YEAH.

Steve says SO, THIS IS A SITUATION WHERE KIDS HAVE MOVED OUT, MAYBE, YOU KNOW, SENIOR WOMAN, WIDOW IS THE LAST PERSON THERE, SHE'S STAYING IN HER ORIGINAL HOME... AND THERE'S TWO OR THREE EMPTY BEDROOMS WHERE EVERYBODY ELSE USED TO LIVE. DO YOU THINK OF THAT AS WASTED SPACE IN SOME RESPECTS?

Cheryll says UM, I THINK IT'S... IT'S A SYMPTOM OF... OF A SYSTEM THAT IS NOT RESPONDING TO CURRENT NEEDS. SO, IN THE CASE OF WHERE I'VE HEARD OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY DOWNSIZING, THEY DID THAT BECAUSE THEY HAD OPTIONS IN THEIR LOCAL NEIGHBOURHOOD WHERE THEY COULD DO SO, RIGHT? SO, WHERE YOU'RE SEEING, YOU KNOW, HOUSEHOLDS AND SENIORS NOT DOWNSIZING, THEY DON'T HAVE OPTIONS TO DOWNSIZE IN THEIR LOCAL NEIGHBOURHOOD, MAINTAIN THOSE, YOU KNOW, RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEIR COMMUNITY. SO, THAT'S WHY THEY STAY WHERE THEY ARE, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WHY LEAVE WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO AND WHEN LEAVING IS NOT REALLY EVEN AN OPTION?

Steve says IS THAT RIGHT, DR. SINHA? IS LEAVING JUST NOT AN OPTION FOR MANY OF THESE PEOPLE?

The caption changes to "Samir Sinha. Sinai Health System."

Samir is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short black hair. He's wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and black tie.

He says WELL, I THINK IT GOES BACK TO WHAT ZAYNA ALSO SAID AT THE BEGINNING WAS THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT HOME IS NOT JUST, YOU KNOW, THE HOUSE THAT YOU LIVE IN, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT IT'S ALSO YOUR NEIGHBOURHOOD. IT'S YOUR COMMUNITY, AND WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE THOSE OTHER OPTIONS, FOR EXAMPLE IF THERE'S NOT AN APARTMENT BUILDING, YOU KNOW, IN YOUR OWN NEIGHBOURHOOD, FOR EXAMPLE, IF THERE AREN'T OTHER HOUSING OPTIONS, THEN, YOU KNOW, WHY WOULD I MOVE OUT OF MY HOUSE AND GIVE UP MY NEIGHBOURHOOD AND MY COMMUNITY? THAT STORE THAT I LOVE TO GO TO, MY LOCAL CHURCH, OTHER THINGS IN MY COMMUNITY, MAYBE MY COMMUNITY GROUP, BECAUSE IN ORDER TO GET THE HOUSING I NEED, IT MEANS I HAVE TO LEAVE AN ENTIRE COMMUNITY BEHIND, AND I THINK THAT'S THE PROBLEM. THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS REPORT IS LIKE SURPRISE, SURPRISE, RIGHT? YOU KNOW, LIFE EXPECTANCY IN CANADA IN 1900 WAS 51 YEARS OF AGE. IT'S NOW 82, AND IF YOU MAKE IT TO 65, AND MOST OF US WILL, YOU'LL HAVE 20 YEARS OF GOOD, YOU KNOW, LIFE EXPECTANCY AHEAD OF YOU UM, AND THAT'S SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE. SO YES, OF COURSE, IF YOU'RE HEALTHY AND LIVING LONGER, WHY WOULD YOU NEED TO MOVE OUT OF YOUR HOUSE? BUT I THINK THIS IS WHERE WE'RE BLAMING AN ISSUE ABOUT A LACK OF HOUSING STOCK AND NOW PICKING ON THIS GROUP SAYING, "HOW DARE THEY LIVE SO LONG AND SUCCESSFULLY AND CHOOSE TO LIVE IN THEIR HOMES LONGER? HOW DARE THEY?"

Steve says WELL, SOME OF THE LANGUAGE DOES GET A BIT PEJORATIVE AROUND THIS AND I NOTE RECENTLY THE TORONTO STAR IN REPORTING ON THE CMHC REPORT SAID SENIORS WERE, QUOTE UNQUOTE, "CLINGING TO THEIR HOMES SPELLING DOOM FOR YOUNGER BUYERS WHO ARE TRYING TO START FAMILIES AND GET INTO THE HOUSING MARKET IN, YOU KNOW, VERY EXPENSIVE CITIES." WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE?

The caption changes to "Zayna Khayat. University of Toronto."

Zayna says OKAY, WITH ALL RESPECT, THAT'S THE MOST AGEIST HEADLINE I'VE SEEN AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO KEEP CALLING THESE OUT. I THINK WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND AS A SOCIETY OUR OWN SOCIAL CONSTRUCTS AROUND WHAT HAPPENS TO OLDER ADULTS, THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR WHAT SAMIR TALKED ABOUT BEFORE, RIGHT? IT WAS, YOU KNOW, YOU RETIRED, AND WITHIN FIVE YEARS YOU WERE DEAD, AND THAT'S JUST NOT AT ALL THE CASE TODAY, AND SO IT'S REALLY AN AGEIST PERSPECTIVE, AND LET'S BE CLEAR, THAT'S FOR THE OLDER ADULTS WHO HAD THE LUXURY OF BUYING INTO THE HOUSING MARKET IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND THAT REALLY DOESN'T DESCRIBE KIND OF THE BROADER NEED FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN PEOPLE'S COMMUNITIES. TO HONOUR AND RESPECT THEIR CHOICE OF WHERE THEY WANT TO LIVE AND AGE. WE CAN'T TELL PEOPLE WHERE THEY WANT TO LIVE AND AGE. THEY DECIDE THAT FOR THEMSELVES, AND WE OWE THAT TO THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE CREATED CANADA.

Steve says ALTHOUGH THE IMPLICATIONS ARE THAT PEOPLE OF YOUR GENERATION ARE GOING TO HAVE A HARDER TIME FINDING HOUSING BECAUSE OF THIS. I'M NOT MAKING A VALUE JUDGMENT ON IT, BUT THAT IS SIMPLY THE CASE, RIGHT?

The caption changes to "Cheryll Case, @CheryllCase." Then, it changes again to "Connect with us: Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, agendaconnect@tvo.org, Instagram."

Cheryll says WELL, I LOVE MY NEIGHBOUR, AND HE'S VERY OLD MAN, AND I WOULD NEVER USE THAT LANGUAGE TO A SENIOR. I DON'T THINK... LIKE YOU WERE SAYING, IT'S JUST DISRESPECTFUL, AND I THINK WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HOUSING, YOU NEED TO RESPECT A PERSON'S CHOICE TO LIVE ON THE PROPERTY THAT... ESPECIALLY IF THEY OWN IT. IF IT'S A PROPERTY THAT THEY'VE... LIKE, THEY'VE PUT MONEY INTO, YOU HAVE TO RESPECT THAT, AND ALSO RESPECT THEIR AGENCY AND THEIR ABILITY TO THINK THROUGH WHAT IS THE BEST DECISION FOR ME RIGHT NOW. UM... AND SO IT REALLY GOES BACK TO, AGAIN, THE SYSTEMS THAT ARE IN PLACE AND THE LACK OF OPTIONS TO EVEN CONSIDER TO MOVE INTO A DIFFERENT SITUATION. AND I'LL, JUST TO CONTINUE, SPEAKING ABOUT THE INTERGENERATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS, I, YOU KNOW, HAVE SPOKEN TO FRIENDS OF MINE WHO, YOU KNOW, THEY GREW UP WITH THEIR FAMILY AND WITH THEIR PARENTS, AND THEY WANTED TO, YOU KNOW, CONVERT THEIR HOUSE INTO TWO SEPARATE LIVING UNITS, AND THEY COULD NOT DO SO.

Steve says WHY NOT?

Cheryll says POLICY.

Steve says POLICY DOES NOT PERMIT FOR... MUNICIPAL BYLAW STUFF?

Cheryll says YEAH. YEAH. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, HAVING A SEPARATE ENTRANCE TO PUTTING IN A SEPARATE ENTRANCE TO A HOUSE THAT OTHERWISE DID NOT HAVE A SEPARATE ENTRANCE. YOU'LL COME UP TO ISSUES ON DOING THAT AND ZONING BYLAW POLICIES. AND SO FORCED TO... AGAIN, YOU KNOW... 'CAUSE YOU KNOW, IN THIS CULTURE, WE VALUE OUR INDEPENDENCE.

Steve says YES.

Cheryll says RIGHT? LIKE, I LOVE MY PARENTS, I LOVE MY NEIGHBOURS, BUT, LIKE, I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO GO IN THE KITCHEN AND SEE THEM IN THE LIVING ROOM, RIGHT? YOU WANT YOUR OWN SEPARATE SPACE, BUT CONVERTING YOUR DETACHED HOUSE INTO TWO SEPARATE DWELLING UNITS, YOU CAN MAINTAIN THAT RELATIONSHIP OF BEING NEXT TO YOUR FAMILY MEMBER BUT BEING SEPARATE. THAT'S WHY, FOR EXAMPLE LANEWAY HOUSES IS ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT INTERGENERATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS WHERE YOU CAN HAVE, YOU KNOW, SENIORS IN THE BACKYARD PROPERTY, MAYBE LIVING IN THE MAIN PROPERTY. BUT AGAIN, ALLOWING FOR A... PROVIDING AN OPPORTUNITY FOR YOUNG AND OLD TO LIVE ON THE SAME PROPERTY.

Steve says HM. THERE'S ALREADY IT SEEMS LOTS OF REASONS FOR THIS INTER... WHAT DID YOU CALL IT? INTERGENERATIONAL...

Cheryll says UH-HUH. YEAH...

Steve says SITUATION TO BE NASTY, YOU KNOW, YOUNGER PEOPLE MAY THINK OLDER PEOPLE ARE, FOR A WHOLE BUNCH OF REASONS, PREVENTING THEIR ABILITY TO GET FORWARD. HOW DO WE KIND OF BEVEL THE EDGES OF THAT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE LOWER THE TEMPERATURE ON THIS INTERGENERATIONAL SITUATION?

The caption changes to "Samir Sinha, @DrSamirSinha."

Samir says YEAH, WELL I THINK, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, I THINK TWO YEARS AGO WHEN THE HOUSING MARKET WAS REALLY YOU KNOW, OUT OF CONTROL, YOU KNOW, WE DECIDED TO CHOOSE, YOU KNOW, WE STARTED TO FOCUS ON FOREIGNERS AND SAY IT WAS THE FOREIGN BUYERS WHO WERE BUYING UP PROPERTY AND PUSHING UP THE PRICES. NOW, WE'RE NOW FINDING A DIFFERENT GROUP TO BLAME, RIGHT? SO, NOW WE'RE GOING TO GO AFTER SENIORS, FOR EXAMPLE, AND I THINK THIS IS WHERE WE AGAIN, I THINK, AS CHERYLL WAS SAYING BEFORE, THESE ARE SYSTEMIC ISSUES. IF WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH HOUSING STOCK, IF WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT MIX OF HOUSING IN OUR NEIGHBOURHOODS AND GIVE PEOPLE A VARIETY OF OPTIONS, THEN WE'RE ACTUALLY JUST PERPETUATING THE PROBLEMS THAT WE KNEW WOULD HAPPEN YEARS AGO, AND I THINK THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES HERE. ONE OF THE FASTEST-GROWING HOUSEHOLDS IN CANADA ARE MULTI-GENERATIONAL HOUSEHOLDS. THAT'S ACTUALLY THE FASTEST-GROWING TYPE OF HOUSEHOLD THAT WE HAVE IN CANADA TODAY, AND THAT'S WHERE MULTIPLE GENERATIONS, THREE OR MORE GENERATIONS, ARE CHOOSING TO LIVE TOGETHER AND SHARE A HOUSE AND MAY BE WHERE THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES TO DIVIDE IT OR CREATE SEPARATE SPACES, THAT'S ONE OPPORTUNITY. SO, THAT'S ONE WAY TO, YOU KNOW, KIND OF, UM, YOU KNOW, TO I GUESS SMOOTH THE EDGES. BUT ANOTHER INTERESTING INITIATIVE THAT STARTED A FEW YEARS AGO IN HALTON REGION, AND THEN IN OSHAWA, DURHAM, AND NOW IN TORONTO, IT'S A PROGRAM, IT'S CALLED HOME SHARING, AND IT'S THE IDEA WHERE YOU CAN HAVE A PERSON WHO WANTS TO STAY IN THEIR NEIGHBOURHOOD AND HAVE THREE EXTRA BEDROOMS WHO CAN NOW... WHO'S ACTUALLY ABLE TO SAY, "HEY, YOUNG PERSON, YOU KNOW, WHY DON'T YOU COME AND LIVE WITH ME? YOU'LL GET A BELOW MARKET RATE RENT, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT I NEED YOU TO HELP ME WITH MOWING THE LAWN OR DOING THOSE OTHER THINGS, AND THE PROGRAM WAS SO SUCCESSFUL AS A PILOT, NOW THE CITY OF TORONTO HAS MADE IT A PERMANENT PROGRAM. SO, IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE NOW THAT YOUNG MILLENNIAL, FOR EXAMPLE, CAN LIVE DOWNTOWN, FOR EXAMPLE. THEY'RE... THEY CAN ACTUALLY SAVE MONEY TOWARDS THAT HOUSE PURCHASE THAT THEY WANT TO MAKE, AND THEY GET TO BE A PART OF A COMMUNITY THAT THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE OTHERWISE BEEN ABLE TO BE A PART OF BECAUSE IT WAS TOO EXPENSIVE TO BUY INTO. SO THESE ARE SOME OF THE WAYS THAT WE'RE TRYING TO BE CREATIVE, BUT WE NEED MORE OPTIONS.

Steve says DO YOU THINK IT'S A PROBLEM, ZAYNA, IF A WIDOWED WOMAN OF, LET'S SAY, 85 YEARS OF AGE, LIVES IN A HOME WITH THREE EMPTY BEDROOMS? IS THAT A PROBLEM?

The caption changes to "Zayna Khayat, @ZaynaKhayat."

Zayna says SO IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOUR STARTING POINT IS. IF THIS WIDOWED WOMAN OF 85 IS LIVING AT HOME AND DOESN'T HAVE THE MEANS, BECAUSE REMINDER, PEOPLE ARE ON FIXED INCOME ONCE THEY GET, YOU KNOW, KIND OF PAST RETIREMENT AGE AND CAN'T AFFORD THE HEAT FOR THAT HOME, THE PERSON TO MOW HER LAWN AND REMOVE THE SNOW AND THE TAXES AND ALL THAT, BUT DOESN'T HAVE OTHER OPTIONS, IT IS A PROBLEM, BUT IT'S NOT A PROBLEM OF THE WOMAN. IT'S A PROBLEM OF A SYSTEM. IF THAT WOMAN NEEDS HELP, AND SHE DOESN'T WANT TO GO TO A LONG-TERM CARE FACILITY OR A NURSING HOME, SHE PHYSICALLY NEEDS A BIT OF HELP, BUT WE HAVE NO OTHER WAY, AND SO SHE'S GOING TO JUST GO SIT AT THE HOSPITAL, THIS ALC, ALTERNATIVE LEVEL OF CARE, THEN THAT'S A PROBLEM, AND THAT'S WHY SOME OF THESE OTHER CREATIVE SOLUTIONS WILL ALLOW HER TO AGE IN THE PLACE OF HER CHOICE, BUT BE SUPPORTED TO LIVE AS INDEPENDENTLY, AS SAFELY AS POSSIBLE WITHIN HER ECONOMIC MEANS.

Steve says NO, I'M WONDERING, SHOULD SOCIETY BE LOOKING AT THAT PERSON AS SAYING, "YOU'VE GOT WAY TOO MUCH HOUSE FOR YOUR NEEDS AND YOU'RE BEING A BIT OF A HOG ABOUT IT." IS THAT A...

Samir says BUT IT'S NOT JUST FOR OLDER PEOPLE. LIKE, I MEAN, I'M GOING TO RAISE MY HAND TODAY AND SAY I HAVE A SPARE BEDROOM, RIGHT? NOW I'M NOT ADVERTISING THAT FOR ANYBODY, BUT WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS THAT, SO, THAT WOMAN THAT WE'RE TARGETING RIGHT NOW WHO MIGHT HAVE THREE EMPTY BEDROOMS, WELL I SHOULD EQUALLY BE TO BLAME BECAUSE I'M OVER-HOUSED, AND MANY PEOPLE ARE OVER-HOUSED. YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT JUST... IT'S NOT JUST THE OLDER SEGMENT THAT'S ACCOUNTING FOR THE 5 MILLION EMPTY BEDROOMS.

Steve says SO, STOP PICKING ON SENIORS.

Samir says YEAH, SO STOP PICKING ON SENIORS BECAUSE IT'S NOT FAIR, BUT I THINK AS ZAYNA WAS SAYING WAS THAT, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA IS, IT'S NOT A MATTER THAT THAT'S NOT THE PROBLEM, BUT IF THAT PERSON ISN'T ABLE... IF THAT PERSON... IF WE'RE NOT GIVING THEM THE OPTIONS TO AGE IN THE PLACE OF THEIR CHOICE, THAT'S A SOCIETAL PROBLEM.

Steve says I WANT TO READ A LITTLE EXCERPT HERE. MY PAL JOHN MICHAEL MCGRATH WHO WRITES ON OUR WEBSITE, TVO.ORG, HAD A COLUMN APTLY TITLED WAITING FOR BABY BOOMERS TO DIE IS NOT EFFECTIVE HOUSING POLICY.

Zayna says OH, NO. AND HERE'S AN EXCERPT FROM THAT. SHELDON, PUT THIS UP, IF YOU WOULD.

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Everything changes." The quote reads "IN RELATION TO TORONTO, OUR TIMID ATTEMPTS TO MAKE CHANGE THROUGH POLICY HAVE DONE LITTLE TO ADDRESS THE HOUSING PROBLEM. THE ONLY THING GOVERNMENTS OF ALL STRIPES AND AT ALL LEVELS ARE DOING COMPREHENSIVELY IS NOT ENOUGH. IN LIGHT OF THE CMHC REPORT, I WOULD ADD THAT PART OF THE REASON THAT NOBODY'S BEEN DOING ENOUGH IS WE HAVE BEEN SLOW TO RECOGNIZE THAT CERTAIN FEATURES OF THE SYSTEM, LIKE MORTALITY ITSELF, AREN'T DOING THE SAME WORK THEY USED TO." Quoted from John Michael McGrath, tvo.org. August 9, 2019.

Steve says THE GUY'S CLEVER, RIGHT? WRITES CLEVER STUFF. OKAY, PEOPLE ARE LIVING LONGER, BUT HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE POLICY CHANGE... I DON'T KNOW, CITY HALL. WHAT SHOULD CITY HALLS ALL OVER ONTARIO BE DOING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN KIND OF LINE UP WHAT PEOPLE HAVE, WHAT PEOPLE NEED, ET CETERA?

Zayna says I MEAN, I THINK THE... AS I'VE UNDERSTOOD IT, THERE'S THIS MACRO MOVEMENT OF WHAT WE CALL AGE-FRIENDLY CITIES, AND, I MEAN, SAMIR'S BEEN INVOLVED IN TORONTO IN PARTICULAR... I MEAN, THAT IS THE POLICY THEY'RE GOING AFTER, AND IT'S MULTI-PRONGED. IT'S NOT JUST A HOUSING SOLUTION. IT'S ABOUT THE BUILT ENVIRONMENT AND LIBRARIES AND PARKS AND THE URBAN LANDSCAPE, BUT IT'S DESIGNING TO BE AN AGE-FRIENDLY CITY, AND I THINK THERE'S A FELLOW IN BRAZIL WHO HAS A WHOLE MOVEMENT CALLED 8 TO 80, WHICH MEANS YOU DESIGN A CITY THAT CAN WORK FOR AN 8-YEAR-OLD OR AN 80-YEAR-OLD, AND IF YOU DO THAT, WE'RE NOT GOING TO EVEN HAVE TO HAVE THIS PANEL TODAY.

Steve says BECAUSE THEY KIND OF HAVE THE SAME NEEDS, DON'T THEY, IN SOME RESPECTS?

Zayna says YOU COVER THE MULTI-GENERATIONAL, ET CETERA. IT'S JUST PART OF THE FABRIC OF SOCIETY AND NOT THIS EXCEPTIONAL THING THAT THERE'S SUDDENLY A LOT OF OLDER ADULTS STAYING ALIVE FOR MUCH LONGER. IT'S JUST KIND OF HOW SOCIETY IS.

Steve says IT'S PROBABLY NOT GOOD SOCIAL POLICY TO JUST WAIT FOR PEOPLE TO DIE OFF, RIGHT?

Samir says NO, IT HASN'T WORKED REALLY WELL FOR US, BECAUSE AGAIN, AGAIN, WE STARTED AT 51 YEARS OF AGE BACK IN 1900, AND WE'RE 82, AND, YOU KNOW, CHANCES... APPARENTLY OUR LIFE SPAN COULD BE 120, SO REALLY BAD POLICY IF WE FOCUS ON THAT, BUT POLICIES THAT DO WORK, AGAIN, IN THAT FRAMEWORK OF AGE-FRIENDLY COMMUNITIES, SOME OF THE WORK THAT THE CITY PLANNERS ARE DOING IS THEY'RE SAYING IF WE'RE BUILDING A NEW NEIGHBOURHOOD, LET'S HAVE MIXED TYPES OF ACCOMMODATION. LET'S HAVE SOME DETACHED HOMES WITH MULTIPLE BEDROOMS. LET'S HAVE SINGLE-STOREY APARTMENTS OR SMALLER APARTMENTS THAT PEOPLE MIGHT WANT TO DOWNSIZE INTO AND STAY WITHIN THEIR COMMUNITY. SO, IT'S LOOKING AT A MIX OF OPTIONS AS OPPOSED TO A NEIGHBOURHOOD THAT JUST HAS DETACHED HOUSES AND ONLY ONE OPTION AVAILABLE AS WELL, BUT IT'S ALSO MAKING SURE THAT WE LOOK AT OTHER CREATIVE PROGRAMS, LIKE, AS WE WERE SAYING, YOU KNOW, HOW, YOU KNOW, DO WE HAVE PERMISSION TO DIVIDE UP OUR HOUSES, FOR EXAMPLE? YOU KNOW, DO WE LOOK AT CO-HOUSING POLICIES? DO WE LOOK AT MORE HOME SHARING PROGRAMS? 'CAUSE THESE ARE SOME OF THE CREATIVE THINGS, BUT THEY'RE NOT MAINSTREAM POLICIES RIGHT NOW, BUT THESE ARE SOME OF THE WAYS THAT WE NEED TO ADVANCE, BUT WE'RE NOT DOING THAT AS A CONCERTED OR COHESIVE EFFORT ACROSS THE PROVINCE, OR EVEN IN THE CITY ITSELF.

The clip ends and Nam stands in the studio alone.

She says AND THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT'S AGENDA IN THE SUMMER. TOMORROW, WE REMEMBER OUR ENCOUNTER WITH THE BRILLIANT LIFE AND PASSING OF VISUAL ARTIST AND WRITER TEVA HARRISON. I'M NAM KIWANUKA. THANKS FOR WATCHING TVO AND FOR JOINING US ONLINE AT TVO.ORG. AND WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN TOMORROW.

The announcer says THE AGENDA IN THE SUMMER WITH NAM KIWANUKA IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH GENEROUS PHILANTHROPIC CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING TVO'S JOURNALISM.

As a montage of clips shows different episodes of The Agenda, Steve says THE AGENDA IS ALWAYS ON. TO CATCH UP ON CONVERSATIONS FROM THIS WEEK OR ANY WEEK, VISIT OUR WEBSITE, TVO.ORG/THEAGENDA. OR OUR YOUTUBE PAGE AT YOUTUBE.COM/THEAGENDA. IT'S ALL THERE FOR WHENEVER YOU WANT TO WATCH.

Music plays as the end credits roll.

Logos: Unifor Local 72M. Canadian Media Guild.

Watch: Housing Solutions for Older Ontarians