Transcript: Can Indigenous Knowing Help Solve Climate Change? | Jul 16, 2021

An animated slate reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

A female announcer says THE AGENDA IN THE SUMMER WITH NAM KIWANUKA IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH GENEROUS PHILANTHROPIC CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING TVO'S JOURNALISM.

Nam stands in the studio. She's in her early forties, with shoulder length straight brown hair. She's wearing glasses, a mint green blazer over a black shirt, and a golden pendant necklace.

A wall screen behind her reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

Nam says OBSERVE LOCALLY, LEARN GLOBALLY. I'M NAM KIWANUKA. TONIGHT, TO WRAP OUR WEEK DEBUNKING PSEUDO-SCIENCE AND OTHER MISINFORMATION, WE RETURN TO OUR 2018 CONVERSATION WITH MELANIE GOODCHILD. SHE EXPLAINED WHY LINKING KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS - IN THIS CASE INDIGENOUS AND THAT OF THE AMERICAN SPACE AGENCY, NASA - CAN CREATE SOLID GROUND FOR PROGRESS ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

Music plays as an animated slate reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

Nam says NASA'S INDIGENOUS PEOPLES PILOT WAS AN EFFORT TO COMBAT THE CLIMATE CRISIS ACROSS THE GLOBE BY TAPPING INTO INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE IN AN ETHICAL AND CULTURALLY RELEVANT MANNER. MELANIE GOODCHILD IS NOW FOUNDER AND CO-DIRECTOR OF THE TURTLE ISLAND INSTITUTE - AN INDIGENOUS SOCIAL INNOVATION THINK-TANK AND TEACHING LODGE. SHE CONTINUES HER WORK AS RESEARCH FELLOW AT THE WATERLOO INSTITUTE FOR SOCIAL INNOVATION AND RESILIENCE. HERE'S OUR CONVERSATION FROM 2018.

An animated slate reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

In a clip, Steve and Melanie sit in the studio facing each other. A caption on screen reads "Climate change collaboration. Two worlds."

Steve says I THINK WE GET WESTERN SCIENCE, WE UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT IS. BUT INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE IS NOT SOMETHING EVERYBODY WILL UNDERSTAND. SO, LET'S START THERE. HOW DO YOU DEFINE THAT?

Melanie is in her forties, with short, dark brown hair and bangs. She's wearing glasses and a spotted black sweater.

The caption changes to "Melanie Goodchild. Waterloo Institute for Social Innovation and Resilience."

Melanie says OKAY. SO, INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE... WELL, THERE'S GREAT DIVERSITY AMONG INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES. I'M ANISHINAABE, FOR INSTANCE, AND SO, WE WOULD SAY... (SPEAKING ANISHINAABEMOWIN) SO, IT'S OUR WORLDVIEW, IT'S OUR WAY OF SEEING THE WORLD, AND IT'S REALLY INTERCONNECTED WITH LOCAL ECOSYSTEMS. AND SOME PEOPLE HAVE CALLED IT TRADITIONAL ECOLOGICAL KNOWLEDGE, BUT IT'S ALSO THE CONTEMPORARY KNOWLEDGE, THE LIVED EXPERIENCE OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLES, WHICH IS, IN SOME WAYS, AN ALTERNATIVE TO WESTERN THEORY AND SCIENTIFIC THINKING.

Steve says WELL, I WAS JUST GOING TO ASK, IS THAT DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT PEOPLE WOULD LEARN IN ANY TYPICAL ONTARIO COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY?

The caption changes to "Originally aired April 30, 2018."

Melanie says I THINK IT'S DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT IN THE WAY IT'S PRESENTED, WHERE KNOWLEDGE RESIDES. LIKE, WE HAVE AN ORAL HISTORY, WE PRESENT THINGS THROUGH STORYTELLING, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF COMMON GROUND. I MEAN, OUR ELDERS SAY WE'VE ALWAYS DONE SCIENCE, IT'S JUST NOT BEEN CALLED THAT. AND SO, IN UNIVERSITY, WE TEND TO THINK OF THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD AND STORYTELLING IS NOT PART OF THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD. SO, THERE'S A BIT OF A FALSE DICHOTOMY THERE, THOUGH, I THINK, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF COMMON GROUND 'CAUSE WE'RE REALLY JUST LOOKING FOR ANSWERS AND LOOKING FOR WAYS TO MAKE GOOD DECISIONS ABOUT PROTECTING THE EARTH.

Steve says IF YOU DON'T CALL IT SCIENCE, WHAT WOULD YOU CALL IT?

Melanie says WE CALL IT... THERE'S ACTUALLY A THAT WORD WE SAY, IT'S OUR RELATIONSHIP TO THE LAND. IN ANISHINAABEMOWIN, IT'S... (SPEAKING ANISHINAABEMOWIN) AND WHAT THAT MEANS, WE SAY LAND IS "AKIA," WHICH IS A FAST-MOVING CURRENT, AND SO OUR ANCESTORS KNEW THAT THE EARTH WAS ROUND AND NOT FLAT. AND SO 'AKIA' IS 'LAND', AND THEN... (SPEAKING ANISHINAABEMOWIN) IS YOUR RELATIONSHIP TO ALL OF CREATION. SO, WE DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE A WORD FOR 'NATURE' OR 'ENVIRONMENT' OR 'SCIENCE' IN OUR LANGUAGE.

Steve says LET'S PURSUE THAT A BIT, THE DIFFERENCES IN LANGUAGE BETWEEN THE WAY INDIGENOUS CULTURE DESCRIBES THINGS AND THE WAY WESTERN SCIENCE DOES.

Melanie says RIGHT.

Steve says GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES.

The caption changes to "Melanie Goodchild. University of Waterloo."

Melanie says SO, OUR LANGUAGE AND CODES ARE A WAY OF LOOKING AT THE WORLD, AND A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT IS, IN ENGLISH, WE HAVE A LOT OF NOUNS, RIGHT? A TABLE, A GLASS, A TREE, AND THOSE BECOME INANIMATE OBJECTS. BUT IN ANISHINAABE, IT'S ALL DESCRIPTIVE, AND SO WE WOULD DESCRIBE THINGS, AND IN THAT, WE'RE CREATING ENERGY. SO, THINGS ARE ALIVE. THAT'S WHERE THAT CONCEPT OF MOTHER EARTH COMES FROM AND THE SPIRIT OF WATER. WATER PROTECTORS TALK ABOUT THE SPIRIT OF WATER AND THAT YOU NEED TO PROTECT THAT SPIRIT. AND IT'S BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THAT THOSE ARE A GIFT AND THAT WE NEED TO HAVE A RECIPROCAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THOSE GIFTS AND APPRECIATE THEM, INSTEAD OF LOOKING AT THEM PURELY AS ECOLOGICAL SERVICES.

Steve says DOES THAT, IN FACT, CHANGE THE WAY YOU PROBLEM-SOLVE COMPARED TO WESTERN SCIENTISTS?

Melanie says I THINK IT DOES BECAUSE WE HAVE A HOLISTIC VIEW. AND SO OFTEN SCIENCE IS COMPARTMENTALIZED. I MEAN, THERE'S LOTS OF DIFFERENT TYPES OF SCIENTISTS. RIGHT? AND SO, WHETHER YOU'RE A BIOLOGIST OR A BOTANIST OR ECOLOGIST, AND EVEN SCIENCE COMES TOGETHER IN SOMETHING NEW, LIKE ECOLOGICAL ECONOMICS. BUT WE HAVE A HOLISTIC VIEW, RECOGNIZING THE WEB OF LIFE AND INTERCONNECTIVITY OF ALL OF CREATION, INCLUDING OUR SACRED RESPONSIBILITY WITHIN IT. SO, WHEN WE'RE PROBLEM-SOLVING, WE'RE NOT JUST LOOKING AT COMPARTMENTALIZED KNOWLEDGE, WE'RE LOOKING AT THE WHOLE ECOSYSTEM, FOR EXAMPLE. SO, WHEN INUIT ELDERS IN THE ARCTIC WERE ASKED ABOUT DECLINING BELUGA WHALE POPULATIONS, THEY STARTED TALKING ABOUT BEAVERS IN A RECENT STUDY AND IT WAS BECAUSE THE BEAVERS WERE BUILDING DAMS AND AFFECTING THE FOOD SOURCES, AND THEN THE POPULATION OF THE BELUGA WHALES WENT DOWN. BUT SCIENCE WOULD BE, PERHAPS, JUST LOOKING AT SPECIFIC ASPECTS OF THE ISSUE, WHEREAS THE ELDERS TALKED ABOUT, "HEY, THERE'S A LOT OF BEAVERS AND THEY'RE BUILDING A LOT OF DAMS." SO, THEY WERE ABLE TO BRING TOGETHER THEIR LOCAL TRADITIONAL KNOWLEDGE WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF SCIENTISTS WHO WERE MONITORING THOSE POPULATIONS.

Steve says YOU KNOW IN SCIENCE THAT THEY SAY THAT PEOPLE ARE EITHER LEFT BRAIN PEOPLE OR RIGHT BRAIN PEOPLE, RIGHT? YOU KNOW, HUMANITIES ARE RIGHT SIDE. SCIENCE, MATH, LEFT SIDE AND SO ON. RIGHT. DOES THAT NOTION OR DOES THAT THEORY EXIST IN INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE, AS WELL?

The caption changes to "Bridging silos."

Melanie says IT DOES, BUT IT'S NOT NECESSARILY A BINARY DIVISION. WE HAVE A MORE HOLISTIC TEACHING, A FRAMEWORK THAT IS... IT'S ACTUALLY REPRESENTED IN THE MEDICINE WHEEL, SO THE FOUR COLOURS AND THERE'S FOUR QUADRANTS. SO, OUR ELDERS TALK ABOUT FOUR INTELLIGENCES. SIMILAR, I GUESS, TO, YOU KNOW, HOWARD GARDNER'S MULTIPLE INTELLIGENCES. THIS IS EMOTIONAL... EMOTIONAL, SPIRITUAL, MENTAL, AND PHYSICAL. AND SO, WHEN YOU'RE PROBLEM-SOLVING AND YOU'RE LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, REALLY COMPLEX ISSUES, YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THOSE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES. BUT OFTEN IN SOCIETY, WE TEND TO INTELLECTUALIZE EVERYTHING.

Steve says ALL RIGHT, LET'S CUT TO THE CHASE HERE. YOU HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARY NEW PARTNERSHIP WITH NASA. RIGHT. THE AMERICAN SPACE AGENCY.

Melanie says YES.

Steve says HOW DID THAT COME TOGETHER?

The caption changes to "Melanie Goodchild, @leaders_indig."

Melanie says YEAH. WHEN PEOPLE HEAR THAT, THEY GO, "NASA NASA?" AND I SAY, "YEAH, NASA NASA." I WAS ACTUALLY IN INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S FORUM FELLOWSHIP PROGRAM, SPONSORED BY HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL AND INSEAD, AND ONE OF MY CO-FELLOWS DR. NANCY SEARBY, WHO'S THE PROGRAM MANAGER FOR NASA'S EARTH SCIENCES APPLIED SCIENCES CAPACITY BUILDING PROGRAM, AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT SPIRITUALITY, AND SHE SAID, "WELL, THEY'VE REACHED OUT TO COMMUNITIES IN THE UNITED STATES TO TALK ABOUT GEOSPATIAL DATA AND THE APPLICATIONS FOR REMOTE SENSING WITH INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES," AND WE DECIDED THAT WE'D LIKE TO WORK TOGETHER. AND IT'S TAKEN ABOUT A YEAR TO COME TOGETHER AND, YOU KNOW, FIGURE OUT WHAT WE'RE DOING, SO IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS, WE'RE BRINGING TOGETHER INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE-KEEPERS WITH SOME OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS THAT SUPPORT NASA AND SOME OF THE NASA SCIENTISTS TO TALK ABOUT THIS KIND OF INTERSECTION OF TRADITIONAL KNOWLEDGE AND THEIR TECHNOLOGIES.

The caption changes to "Connect with us: TVO.org. Twitter: @theagenda; Facebook, YouTube, Periscope, Instagram."

Steve says I COULD BE TOTALLY WRONG ABOUT THIS, OKAY? THIS MAY BE JUST MY BIAS AND STEREOTYPE COMING TO THE FORE HERE, BUT DON'T SCIENTISTS THINK THEY KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING? AND WHY WOULD THEY... WHY WOULD THEY THINK ANYTHING AS SPIRITUAL AS WHAT YOU COULD BRING TO THE PARTY WOULD BE SOMETHING THEY'D WANT TO CONSIDER?

Melanie says YEAH. I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENED IS THAT, IN MY EXPERIENCE AND I'M A SOCIAL SCIENTIST AND I'VE WORKED WITH A LOT OF... WITH WHAT WE CALL 'HARD SCIENTISTS' OR 'NORMAL SCIENTISTS' IN THE THOMAS KUHN SENSE, AND THERE'S A SCIENTIFIC METHOD AND THERE'S A REAL DIVISION OF LABOUR IN TERMS OF THE DISCIPLINES, AND THERE'S AN OPENING NOW, I THINK, FOR LOOKING AT OTHER WORLD VIEWS BECAUSE WE NEED A MORE COMPLETE PICTURE OF REALLY COMPLEX PROBLEMS. SO, IF YOU LOOK AT SOMETHING LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE OR BIODIVERSITY LOSS, THOSE ARE VERY COMPLEX ISSUES. THEY'RE NOT SIMPLE OR COMPLICATED. IN OTHER WORDS, THERE'S NOT ONE SECTOR OR ONE WORLDVIEW THAT'S GOING TO SOLVE SOMETHING SO INTERCONNECTED TO OTHER THINGS. AND THEY'RE LOOKING AT TRADITIONAL KNOWLEDGE AND WHAT THAT CAN BRING TO WHAT'S REALLY A SOMEWHAT IMPORTANT, OF COURSE, BUT NARROW VIEW OF A PROBLEM. AND THEY ARE RECOGNIZING THAT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU TAKE A SATELLITE IMAGE AND YOU LOOK AT, SAY, WATER DISTRIBUTION, THAT BRINGING IN ELDERS AND LOCAL KNOWLEDGE KEEPERS, WHO EVEN WOULD DESCRIBE THAT IMAGE IN A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE CAN PROVIDE INSIGHT. SO, IT'S ALL ABOUT INCREASING YOUR EXPOSURE TO DIFFERENT TYPES OF DATA.

Steve says WHICH SCIENTISTS ACTUALLY LIKE TO DO.

Melanie says YES, WE DO. OKAY.

Steve says CAN I ASK YOU TO TAKE YOUR RIGHT ARM AND GO LIKE THAT...

Melanie says YES.

She stretches her arm out.

Steve says OKAY. CAN WE GET A CAMERA ON THIS? I WAS ABOUT TO SAY THAT THE PLANETS ARE NEAR AND DEAR TO YOUR HEART, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY NOT ON YOUR LEFT ARM, IT'S ON YOUR RIGHT ARM. YOU'VE GOT... AND JUST TWIST IT A LITTLE MORE THAT WAY.

Melanie says THAT WAY? MM-HMM.

As Melanie shifts her arm, Steve points at a tattoo on her skin depicting several planets behind two orcas joined by their lips and flukes.

Steve says YES. THAT'S SATURN, RIGHT? THAT'S SATURN. WHAT IS SATURN DOING ON YOUR RIGHT FOREARM?

Melanie says YEAH. (LAUGHING) SO, I HAVE THE PLANETS AND IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE WHEN WE INTRODUCE OURSELVES, I SAY... (SPEAKING ANISHINAABEMOWIN) (SPEAKING ANISHINAABEMOWIN) THOSE ARE MY SPIRIT NAMES AND BOTH OF THEM HAVE THE WORD 'STAR' IN THEM. ONE OF THEM IN ENGLISH IS MORNINGSTAR, AND MY SPIRIT HELPERS ARE TWO ORCAS, AND THESE REPRESENT ONE OF OUR TEACHINGS FROM THE ELDERS, AND SO, I DECIDED TO GET THAT INKED ONTO MY FOREARM.

Steve says WHEN?

Melanie says A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, I GOT THIS, YEAH. SO, IT WAS ACTUALLY BEFORE I WAS WORKING WITH NASA.

Steve says I WAS GOING TO SAY, I'M GUESSING THAT'S ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS YOU SHOWED THEM WHEN YOU MET THEM.

Melanie says I DID SHOW THEM THAT. I MEAN, PEOPLE USUALLY ADMIRE THE INK THAT I HAVE, SO THEY DID SEE THAT, YEAH.

Steve says THAT'S COOL. WHAT KIND OF WORK ARE YOU GOING TO BE DOING WITH NASA, AS IT RELATES SPECIFICALLY TO CLIMATE CHANGE?

Melanie says SO, THE GEOSPATIAL DATA OFFERS REAL-TIME SATELLITE IMAGERY, SO THAT YOU CAN LOOK AT LAND USE PLANNING, CLIMATE CHANGE ADAPTATION, MITIGATION, YOU CAN LOOK AT WATER USE, DISASTER RISK REDUCTION. AND SO, IT'S LOOKING AT THE NEEDS OF INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES AND SORT OF THE GAPS IN DATA THAT INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES HAVE BECAUSE THE... WHILE THE SOFTWARE IS OPEN SOURCE, THE ACTUAL INTERPRETATION OF THE IMAGES REQUIRES SOME TRAINING. AND SO, WE'RE GOING TO BE MEETING WITH NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITIES ON THE RED CLIFF RESERVATION.

Steve says WHERE IS THAT?

Melanie says THAT'S IN WISCONSIN.

Steve says OKAY.

Melanie says SO, I'M HEADING THERE IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS AND WE'RE GONNA BE TALKING TO THEM ABOUT THEIR NEEDS. AND SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE NAVAJO NATION LOOKS AT WATER AND HAS DROUGHT ISSUES. AND SO, HYDROLOGISTS WORK WITH NASA, NAVAJO HYDROLOGISTS WORK WITH NASA. ANOTHER EXAMPLE HERE IS IN THE NORTH, YOU KNOW, CARIBOU MIGRATION - REINDEER HERDERS UP IN THE ARCTIC HAVE WORKED WITH NASA AND BROUGHT TOGETHER THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF PERMAFROST THAW AND DIFFERENT THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING BECAUSE THEY'RE EXPERIENCING GLOBAL TEMPERATURE RISING TWICE AS FAST AS WE ARE IN THE SOUTH, AND SO THEY'RE HAVING TO LOOK AT ADAPTATION STRATEGIES, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE THAT'S THEIR FOOD SOURCE AND A REALLY HUGE PART OF THEIR CULTURE ARE, YOU KNOW, REINDEER OR CARIBOU HERDERS, FOR EXAMPLE.

Steve says WHAT KIND OF, IF ANY, PUSHBACK HAVE YOU HAD FROM SORT OF OFFICIAL SCIENCE TO WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE HERE?

Melanie says YEAH. I THINK IF YOU'RE CHALLENGING THE STATUS QUO, YOU'RE BOUND TO RECEIVE SOME PUSHBACK; AND OFTEN, IT HAPPENS AT MORE OF A PERSONAL LEVEL THAN AN INSTITUTIONAL LEVEL, WHEN YOU CHALLENGE THE IDENTITY AND CORE OF A SCIENTIST WHO'S NOT USED TO SPEAKING ABOUT SPIRITUALITY, SPIRIT HELPERS, METAPHYSICAL THINGS. INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES, FOR EXAMPLE, HAVE A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE THAT CAME FROM COSMOLOGY, AND THAT'S REFLECTED IN THE FACT WE HAVE 13 MOONS, AND WE DON'T CALL THE MONTHS LIKE "JANUARY, FEBRUARY"; WE NAME THEM BY WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE SEASONS. AND SO, SCIENTISTS OFTEN ARE FINDING THAT THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY EXPERTS IN THE ROOM, AND SO SOMETIMES THAT'S... I THINK THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF DISCOMFORT. IT'S DESTABILIZING, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOUR CORE IDENTITY IS SOMETHING THAT... IT'S NOT NECESSARILY BEING CHALLENGED, BUT IT CERTAINLY REQUIRES SOME HUMILITY TO UNDERSTAND THERE ARE MULTIPLE WORLDVIEWS AND VIEWPOINTS.

Steve says YOU'RE INTRODUCING SOME RATHER NEW IDEAS FOR THE FOLKS ON THIS ONE.

Melanie says YEAH, FOR SURE.

Steve says BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, I PRESUME THAT YOU THINK IT WILL BE BETTER FOR THE COLLABORATION AND I WONDER WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE.

The caption changes to "Subscribe to The Agenda Podcasts: tvo.org/theagenda."

Melanie says YEAH. SO, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A PUSH, I THINK, IN ECOLOGY TO INTEGRATE THESE KNOWLEDGES, AND I DON'T REALLY THINK IT'S ABOUT INTEGRATION. I THINK IT'S WHAT WE CALL ETHICAL SPACE. WILLIE ERMINE TALKED ABOUT ETHICAL SPACE. IF YOU AND I ARE SITTING HERE TALKING ABOUT REALLY DISTINCT WORLDVIEWS, THE SPACE IN-BETWEEN US NEEDS TO BE SAFE, FAIR, WHERE I DON'T PUT DOWN YOUR IDEAS AND YOU DON'T PUT DOWN MINE, BUT WE HAVE THIS DISCUSSION. AND WE ACTUALLY TRY TO INTEGRATE THEM, SO IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT MAYBE BRAIDING SWEETGRASS - IT'S ABOUT BRAIDING THESE IDEAS TOGETHER AND GOING BACK AND FORTH, RECOGNIZING THAT THEY'RE BOTH EQUALLY VALID AND HAVE SOMETHING TO CONTRIBUTE AND THEY'RE GOING TO GIVE US A MORE HOLISTIC PICTURE. IF YOU JUST COMPLETELY IGNORED, YOU KNOW, ONE, EITHER SCIENCE OR TRADITIONAL INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE, THAT YOU WOULD NOT GET A COMPLETE PICTURE AND THEREFORE, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO - MAKE DECISIONS OR FIND SOLUTIONS TO PROBLEMS - YOU'RE GOING TO MISS THE OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE THOSE INSIGHTS MIGHT BE IN THAT OTHER WORLDVIEW.

Steve says SO, GIVE US A CONCRETE EXAMPLE OF HOW THE BRINGING TOGETHER OF THESE TWO DIFFERENT WAYS OF DOING THINGS WOULD RESULT IN SOMETHING POSITIVE.

Melanie says SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THE REMOTE SATELLITE IMAGERY AND THE CARIBOU OR THE REINDEER HERDERS, AS AN EXAMPLE, BECAUSE THIS WAS AN ACTUAL EXAMPLE OF NASA WORKING WITH SÁMI REINDEER HERDERS, IS THAT THEY ARE DEPENDENT ON REINDEER FOR THEIR FOOD AND SUSTENANCE, AND NOW WITH GLOBAL, YOU KNOW, CLIMATE CHANGE, THE SNOW... WHEN YOU HAVE... LIKE, WE JUST HAD AN ICE STORM HERE, RIGHT? THIS LATE RAINFALL, THAT REALLY KIND OF AFFECTS DRAMATICALLY WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE REINDEER BECAUSE THERE'S A TOUGH LAYER OF SNOW THAT THEY CAN'T GET THROUGH TO EAT AND THEN THEIR REINDEER WOULD STARVE. AND SO, WHAT NASA HAS DONE IS GOTTEN TOGETHER WITH THESE KNOWLEDGE HOLDERS AND SAID, "NOW, WHAT CAN WE DO "TO MAKE CHANGES SO THAT WE UNDERSTAND WEATHER PATTERNS?" AND IT'S THE SAME THING WITH FLOODING, FOREST FIRES. AND SO, THERE'S REAL-TIME DATA, BUT IT'S COMPLEMENTED BY AN ORAL HISTORY THAT GOES FURTHER BACK THAN THE SCIENTISTS HAVE DATA ON. IT'S IN SONGS, IT'S IN CEREMONIES, IT'S IN LEGENDS. THERE'S STORIES OF THE TSUNAMI THAT HAPPENED ON THE WEST COAST OF CANADA, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE COAST SALISH PEOPLE'S ORAL HISTORY THAT THE SCIENTISTS ARE ONLY SORT OF FIGURING OUT, AND SO, YOU OFTEN SEE THAT. YOU'LL SEE STORIES OF, ELDERS HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR A LONG TIME AND SCIENTISTS CAUGHT UP AND FOUND EVIDENCE AND NOW, THEY COME TOGETHER TO TELL A MORE COMPLETE STORY.

Steve says HOW LONG AGO WAS THAT TSUNAMI?

Melanie says THAT TSUNAMI WAS IN ABOUT 1700, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND.

Steve says SO, YOUR ORAL TRADITIONS KNOW MORE ABOUT THAT THAN WHAT SCIENTISTS HAVE LEFT ON RECORD FROM THAT?

Melanie says RIGHT. YEAH.

Steve says INTERESTING. LET'S SHOW THIS... SHELDON, SHOW THIS ANIMATION, IF WE CAN.

An animated world map shows variations in temperature through colour, and turns increasingly yellow and red indicating warmer temperatures as the years go by.

Steve says THIS IS A NASA ANIMATION SHOWING CLIMATE CHANGE TIME LAPSE. THIS IS FROM THE YEAR 1880 TO ALMOST PRESENT-DAY. YELLOW, ORANGE, RED SIGNIFYING, OF COURSE, A RISE IN TEMPERATURES. AND I WONDER HOW CLIMATE CHANGE HAS, IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, BEEN AFFECTING INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES IN YOUR WORLD?

The caption changes to "Indigenous impact."

Melanie says MM-HMM. SO, WHEN YOU SEE TEMPERATURES RISE LIKE THAT, ONE OF THE EFFECTS OF THAT ARE THE MELTING OF GLACIERS IN THE ARCTIC, AND THEN WHERE THAT WATER GOES IS INTO THE SEA AND THEN YOU HAVE SEA LEVELS RISING. SO, THERE ARE INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES THAT ARE INTERNATIONALLY AND AS WELL AS IN CANADA HAVE SEEN SEVERE WEATHER EVENTS, THEY'VE SEEN HURRICANES COMING FURTHER NORTH, MAJOR TIDES COMING INTO THEIR COMMUNITIES FROM THE SEA, ALSO PERMAFROST THAW. AND SO, YOU'RE SEEING INSECTS COME FURTHER NORTH THAN THEY'VE EVER DONE BEFORE, CHANGING MIGRATION PATTERNS. SO, PEOPLE LIVING CLOSE TO LOCAL ECOLOGICAL SYSTEMS - THEY'RE FISHING AND THEY'RE HUNTING - ARE SEEING THIS EFFECT THIS HAS ON THE ECOSYSTEM, OF WHICH THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, A PART AND ALSO CULTURALLY AND SPIRITUALLY A PART OF THAT SYSTEM.

Steve says NOW, BESIDES YOUR WORK WITH NASA AND THE WORK ON CLIMATE CHANGE, ARE THERE OTHER ISSUES THAT YOU ARE WORKING ON THAT YOU THINK THE INJECTION OF INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE WOULD HELP?

The caption changes to "Beyond environment."

Melanie says YEAH, FOR SURE. SO, I HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK ACROSS A LOT OF DIFFERENT SECTORS BECAUSE I STUDY SOCIAL INNOVATION, COMPLEXITY THEORY AND SYSTEMS THINKING, WHICH, REALLY, TO ME, IS ANISHINAABE... (SPEAKING ANISHINAABEMOWIN) IT'S ALL THE SAME THING WITH OUR KNOWLEDGE BECAUSE WE WERE SYSTEMS THINKERS BEFORE WE WERE... YOU KNOW, BEFORE WE HEARD THAT TERM "SYSTEMS THINKERS." IT'S APPLICABLE ACROSS MANY DIFFERENT AREAS OF INTEREST BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE RECOGNIZING HOW COMPLEX THINGS ARE, AND WHAT SYSTEMATIC THINKING DOES, IS IT HELPS YOU UNDERSTAND PARADOXICAL IMPLICATIONS. LIKE YOU THINK YOU KNOW THE ANSWER, BUT YOU HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT HOW IT IS GOING TO CASCADE ACROSS MULTIPLE SYSTEMS.

The clip ends and another clip plays in which Jeyan sits inside a room with dark blue walls and houseplants in the background.

A caption reads "Enjoying Ontario's backcountry safely. Jeyan Jeganathan. @JeyanTVO, @theagenda."

Jeyan is in his thirties, with short black hair and a trimmed beard. He's wearing a spotted blue shirt.

He says THIS HUGE PROVINCE OF OURS HAS ENDLESS NATURAL BEAUTY TO EXPLORE, AND THIS SUMMER, AFTER BEING COOPED UP FOR SO LONG DURING THE PANDEMIC, PEOPLE ARE GETTING OUT TO ENJOY IT. BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO THE BACKCOUNTRY, OUR EASTERN ONTARIO HUB JOURNALIST MARSHA MCCLOUD HAS BEEN LOOKING INTO WHY CAUTION, AS WELL AS CURIOSITY IS CRITICAL, TOO. SHE JOINS US NOW FROM TORONTO TO EXPLAIN.

Marsha is in her thirties, with long auburn hair. She's wearing glasses and a spotted white blouse.

Jeyan says HEY, MARSHA.

Marsha says HEY.

Jeyan says ALL RIGHT, SO MAYBE WE'LL TAKE A STEP BACK. WHEN WE TALK ABOUT BACKCOUNTRY, WHAT ARE WE ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT?

The caption changes to "Marsha McLeod. Eastern Ontario Hub Journalist."

Marsha says I GUESS I'LL SAY WHAT IT ISN'T. I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT REMEMBER CAR CAMPING. THEY MIGHT HAVE GONE WITH THEIR PARENTS. I CAN CERTAINLY REMEMBER GOING WITH MY PARENTS. AND IF IT RAINED ALL NIGHT, I MIGHT SLEEP IN THE BACKSEAT OF THE CAR. BACKCOUNTRY CAMPING, YOU CAN'T DRIVE TO THE CAMPSITES. SO, IT MEANS YOU'RE EITHER HIKING WITH ALL OF YOUR GEAR ON YOUR BACK, OR YOU'RE CANOEING INTO YOUR CAMPSITE, BUT YOU ARE DEFINITELY NOT DRIVING UP TO THE SITE. AND ONCE YOU GET THERE, YOU ARE GONNA FIND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S OFTEN VERY WEAK CELL SERVICE, IF ANY AT ALL. THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE AN ELECTRIC HOOK-UP. THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE A, UM, FLUSHING TOILET, FOR INSTANCE. YOU CAN GOOGLE THUNDER BOX IF YOU'RE CURIOUS FOR HOW THAT WORKS. UM, AND YOU KIND OF JUST HAVE TO MAKE DO WITH WHAT YOU PREP.

Jeyan says AND IN TERMS OF WHEN WE LOOK AT ONTARIO, WHAT AREAS WOULD WE BE LOOKING AT?

Marsha says YEAH, I THINK SORT OF THE QUINTESSENTIAL BACKCOUNTRY OFTEN THAT PEOPLE THINK OF IS ALGONQUIN PARK. IT'S ABOUT FOUR HOURS NORTH OF TORONTO, A LITTLE BIT FURTHER, DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU'RE GOING IN THE PARK, AND IT'S A PRETTY MASSIVE EXPANSE. AND MUCH ALGONQUIN PARK ACTUALLY IS BACKCOUNTRY WITH, YOU KNOW, SORT OF MARKED CAMPSITES. SO, IT'S NOT JUST TOTALLY RANDOM. YOU DO BOOK A SPECIFIC PART OF THE PARK AND THEN HEAD THERE.

Jeyan says NOW, DURING THIS PANDEMIC, WE HAVE SEEN AN UPTICK IN PEOPLE USING OUTDOOR SPACES, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT JUST GREEN SPACES IN URBAN SETTINGS, BUT ALSO TRAILS AND PARKS. WHAT HAVE WE SEEN IN TERMS OF BACKCOUNTRY AND THE POPULARITY THERE?

The caption changes to "Marsha McLeod, @marshamcleod_."

Marsha says YEAH, I MEAN, EVEN JUST ANECDOTALLY, I THINK ANYBODY WHO'S TRYING TO BOOK A BACKCOUNTRY OR EVEN NOT NECESSARILY BACKCOUNTRY, BUT EVEN CAR CAMPING KNOWS THAT YOU GO ON TO THE ONTARIO PARKS WEBSITE AND YOU MIGHT SEE A LOT OF LITTLE BOOKED UP RED TRIANGLES. BUT IN TERMS OF THE ACTUAL NUMBERS, WE KNOW THAT 2020 WAS A RECORD SETTING YEAR FOR ONTARIO PARKS. THEY HAD 11 MILLION VISITS, WHICH WAS THAT WAS A COMBINATION OF DAY USE, AS WELL AS CAMPING. AND PRIOR TO THE APRIL SHUTDOWN, IT SEEMED LIKE 2021 WAS GOING TO BE ON TRACK TO EVEN BEAT THAT. BUT WE'LL HAVE TO KIND OF SEE HOW THE DATA COMES IN. AND I THINK, AS WELL, YOU KNOW, ACROSS NORTH AMERICA, A TREND HAS BEEN THAT VOLUNTEER SEARCH AND RESCUE ORGANIZATIONS, AS WELL POLICE SERVICES ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE ARE SEEING A LOT MORE PEOPLE NEEDING TO BE RESCUED FROM THE BACKCOUNTRY AND EVEN FROM SOME AREAS THAT AREN'T NECESSARILY THAT REMOTE.

Jeyan says NOW, WE'LL GET INTO THAT A LITTLE LATER. BUT I DO WANT TO TOUCH ON THE BENEFITS. OBVIOUSLY, A LOT OF US HAVE BEEN SITTING PUT IN OUR DESKS AND WORKING FROM HOME, IF WE HAVE THE LUXURY TO DO THAT. BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BENEFITS OF GETTING OUTDOORS.

Marsha says VERY GOOD QUESTION. SO, I MEAN, GROWING UP, I WORKED LEADING AND HELPING LEAD CANOE TRIPS IN ALGONQUIN PARK, AND TAUGHT CANOEING, AND IT'S AWESOME TO SEE FOR KIDS, BUT ANYONE AT ANY AGE, BUT ESPECIALLY FOR KIDS TO SEE THE BENEFITS OF GETTING AWAY FROM TECHNOLOGY, LEARNING NEW SKILLS, THE CONFIDENCE THAT COMES FROM THAT, BREATHING REALLY FRESH AIR, AND IT'S JUST A REALLY... CAN BE A REALLY AWESOME EXPERIENCE, IF YOU'RE PREPARED AND KIND OF ABLE TO HANDLE THE THINGS THAT MIGHT GET THROWN AT YOU. BUT I MEAN, IN TERMS OF JUST... IT'S CERTAINLY NOT JUST ME SAYING IT. THERE'S A LOT OF REALLY WELL ESTABLISHED RESEARCH SAYING THAT GETTING OUTDOORS - NOT JUST THE BACKCOUNTRY, BUT WHATEVER, REALLY - CAN IMPROVE YOUR MOOD, IT CAN REDUCE STRESS, IMPROVE HOW YOU'RE ABLE TO FOCUS. SO, IT'S IT'S REALLY PRETTY ALL ENCOMPASSING.

Jeyan says SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT A LITTLE BIT OF SAFETY. AND I THINK THIS IS INTERESTING - MAYBE A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW, BUT MAYBE A QUESTION I'LL POSE TO YOU IS ARE THERE ANY REQUIREMENTS, CERTIFICATIONS, THAT A PERSON NEEDS TO HAVE BEFORE, YOU KNOW, BEING ABLE TO USE SOME OF THE EQUIPMENT IN THESE AREAS?

Marsha says NO, REALLY, YOU GO ONLINE, YOU MAKE YOUR RESERVATION, AND THEN YOU'RE GOING TO SHOW UP AT THE ACCESS POINT WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO BEGIN YOUR TRIP, AND MAYBE YOU'RE RENTING GEAR, LIKE A CANOE, YOU'RE RENTING SOME DRY BAGS, BUT THERE'S NO REQUIREMENTS THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE. I MEAN, THAT SAID, THE EXPERTS THAT I SPOKE TO - SO, TRIP GUIDES, I SPOKE WITH THE SEARCH AND RESCUE COORDINATOR FOR THE ONTARIO PROVINCIAL POLICE - THEY SAID TO ME THAT THERE ARE SOME SORT OF REQUISITE SKILLS THAT ARE GOING TO MAKE YOUR EXPERIENCE SAFER, BETTER, MORE ENJOYABLE, AND ONE THING THEY REALLY EMPHASIZED WAS BEING... HAVING A MAP, FIRST OF ALL, HAVING AN OFFICIAL MAP, BEING ABLE TO READ THAT MAP. KNOWING WHERE YOU ARE AND KNOWING WHERE YOU'RE GOING - SUCH AN IMPORTANT SKILL IN THE BACKCOUNTRY, AS WELL AS THINGS LIKE OPEN WATER SAFETY IF YOU'RE CANOEING. AND THINGS EVEN JUST LIKE CAN YOU BUILD A FIRE, SET UP CAMP? WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO IF IT'S POURING RAIN? THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.

Jeyan says NOW, YOU YOURSELF HAVE BEEN OUT IN BACKCOUNTRY. YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, PRETTY MUCH FOLLOWED THIS SORT OF INDUSTRY FOR QUITE A WHILE. DO YOU KNOW OF ANY KIND OF CIRCUMSTANCES THAT HAVE LED TO SOMEONE NEEDING TO BE RESCUED? IS THERE SOME ADVICE THAT YOU WOULD GIVE TO PEOPLE WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, LOOKING TO GET OUT THERE?

A screenshot from the TVO website pops up showing an article. It reads "tvo.org/OntarioHubs. Eastern. Are your ready to go backcountry camping? By Marsha McLeod."

Marsha says YEAH, I DO THINK I PROBABLY COME BACK TO KIND OF THE OPEN WATER SAFETY ELEMENT. I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK "I'M A STRONG SWIMMER, LIKE WHY DO I NEED TO WEAR MY LIFE JACKET?" THINGS LIKE THAT. I MEAN, FOR ME, I'VE BEEN PADDLING FOR 20 YEARS. I WOULD NEVER TAKE MY LIFE JACKET OFF IN THE BACKCOUNTRY, LIKE JUST AS A MATTER OF PRACTICE. YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. BUT... AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE EXPERTS REALLY SAID TO ME, TOO, IS THAT WHEN WE SEE REALLY BAD INCIDENTS HAPPEN, IT'S OFTEN THE COMBINATION OF OPEN WATER AND LACK OF SKILL OR EVEN COLD WATER. I MEAN, THESE LAKES ARE REALLY BIG. IT TAKES A LONG TIME FOR THEM TO HEAT UP, SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT IF YOU'RE GOING IN THE EARLY SEASON OR THE LATER SEASON. BUT EVEN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SUMMER, THEY CAN STILL BE QUITE COLD. AND THINKING ABOUT THINGS LIKE, ARE YOU GOING TO PADDLE STRAIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE LAKE? WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU TIP? WHAT'S YOUR PLAN? WHAT IF ANOTHER CANOE IN YOUR PARTY TIPS? HOW ARE YOU GOING TO HELP THEM? DO YOU KNOW HOW TO DO A RESCUE? REALLY, YOU KNOW, MUCH MORE SAFE IS PADDLING ALONG THE SHORELINE, SO THAT IF YOU DO TIP OR SOMETHING HAPPENS, YOU'RE MUCH CLOSER TO SHORE, THINGS LIKE THAT THAT JUST KIND OF TAKES A WHILE TO LEARN AND PICK UP. AND, YOU KNOW, BEING ABLE TO STEER IN WINDY CONDITIONS, THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.

Jeyan says OKAY, SO, I WANT TO TAKE A STEP BACK, LET'S SAY, BEFORE I EVEN GET TO THE WATER, BEFORE I'VE EVEN MANAGED TO BOOK SOMETHING, AND THIS... MAYBE I'M SPEAKING FOR MYSELF HERE, BUT I'M SURE THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER VIEWERS HERE WHO ARE PROBABLY IN THAT SAME BOAT. HOW SHOULD I PREPARE? WHERE SHOULD I BE LOOKING? IS THERE ANYTHING THAT I SHOULD BE READING OR TRAINING ON LAND OR ANYTHING FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

Marsha says YEAH, I THINK EVEN JUST THE FACT THAT, DAN, YOU USED THE WORD 'PREPARE' IS A GREAT SIGN. I THINK THAT THAT'S WHAT... I MEAN, MYSELF AND EXPERTS WOULD... WOULD REALLY EMPHASIZE IS JUST YOU HAVE TO PREPARE, AND THAT MEANS THINGS LIKE LEAVING BEHIND... CREATING A DAY BY DAY ITINERARY OF WHERE YOU MIGHT BE GOING AND LEAVING THAT BEHIND WITH SOMEBODY WHO IS NOT COMING ON YOUR TRIP, SO IF YOU DON'T RETURN BACK IN TIME, THEY CAN CALL THE AUTHORITIES AND SAY, "HEY, YOU KNOW, MY LOVED ONE, "MY FRIEND IS NOT BACK FROM THEIR TRIP ON TIME." PLANNING THINGS LIKE, DO YOU KNOW YOUR GEAR? YOU KNOW, I ONCE ACCIDENTALLY BROUGHT WATER PURIFICATION TABLETS THAT TAKE FOUR HOURS TO PURIFY, WHEN I THOUGHT THERE WERE 30 MINUTE PURIFICATION TABLETS, AND, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS A PRETTY SILLY MISTAKE. IT'S NOT SOMETHING I WOULD DO AGAIN, AND IT ALMOST HAD SOME PRETTY NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES. SO, REALLY, KNOWING WHAT YOUR GEAR IS. HAVE YOU SET UP YOUR TENT BEFORE? SET IT UP IN YOUR BACKYARD OR EVEN IN A PARK. LIKE ,IT'S JUST, IF YOU LIVE IN TORONTO, MAYBE SETTING IT UP IN A CITY PARK, EVEN IF IT FEELS SILLY. BUT JUST KNOWING HOW YOU'RE GEAR WORKS, I THINK, IS REALLY IMPORTANT AND MAKING SURE YOU'RE WATERPROOF, AND MAKING SURE YOU'RE AWARE OF CERTAIN THINGS; LIKE IT'S QUITE EASY TO GET DEHYDRATED WHEN YOU'RE OUT ON THE WATER OR UNDER THE SUN FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. AND DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH WATER YOU'RE GOING TO NEED TO BE DRINKING THROUGHOUT THE DAY?

Jeyan says IS THERE SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD BE KEEPING IN MIND ONCE WE'RE IN THE PARK, NOT JUST SAFETY, BUT ALSO ETIQUETTE AS WELL?

Marsha says YEAH, THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION, AND I THINK, ANECDOTALLY, SOME PEOPLE DID SAY THAT LAST YEAR... AND THEY EMPHASIZE, YOU KNOW, THEY REALLY DIDN'T THINK IT WAS MALICE; IT WAS JUST, I MEAN, IT'S SORT OF AN EDUCATIONAL PIECE... BUT THEY NOTICED A REAL INCREASE IN LIVE TREES BEING CUT DOWN, WHICH IS AGAINST THE RULES IN PROVINCIAL PARKS. SO, FOLKS CUTTING DOWN LIVE TREES FOR FIREWOOD OR EVEN, REALLY, ANY KIND OF LIVE PLANTS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE REMOVED. AS WELL AS THINGS LIKE GARBAGE - YOU KNOW, ARE YOU PACKING OUT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT YOU BROUGHT IN? NOT JUST SORT OF TRYING TO BURN IT HAPHAZARDLY IN A FIRE PIT. AS WELL AS THINGS LIKE HANGING UP YOUR FOOD WHEN YOU GO TO SLEEP AT NIGHT IN A TREE AWAY FROM THE TREE TRUNK, BOTH TO PRACTICE BEAR SAFETY, BUT ALSO SORT OF MAKING SURE SMALL CRITTERS DON'T GET INTO ALL OF YOUR SNACKS.

Jeyan says THE UNDERSTANDING IS LEAVE NO TRACE, I GUESS.

Marsha says EXACTLY.

Jeyan says NOW, ONE THING THAT I THINK, YOU KNOW... IN SOME SITUATIONS, IT MIGHT BE TOO LATE - YOU KNOW, IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU ARE ON A BOAT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT - BUT IF YOU DO NEED HELP AND SOMETHING GOES WRONG, WHAT ARE THE SUGGESTIONS? I IMAGINE, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE MAY NOT HAVE THEIR PHONES ON THEM. WHAT... YOU KNOW, IS IT A CALL TO 911? WHAT SHOULD SOMEONE BE DOING, IF THEY NEED HELP?

Marsha says YEAH, I MEAN, IT IS A REALLY GOOD IDEA TO HAVE YOUR PHONE ON YOU IN BACKCOUNTRY, JUICED UP, JUST IN THE CHANCE THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO GET A LITTLE BIT OF WEAK SIGNAL. BUT FAILING THAT, SOME PEOPLE DO SATELLITE PHONES INTO THE BACKCOUNTRY OR THEY BRING OTHER SATELLITE COMMUNICATIONS DEVICES, LIKE SPOT DEVICES, I THINK, ARE BECOMING MORE POPULAR. HOWEVER, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT DON'T USE PHONES, EITHER, AND IT'S JUST KNOWING, DO YOU HAVE THE SKILLS AND ABILITIES, IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG - A MEMBER OF YOUR GROUP IS INJURED - TO BE ABLE TO GET BACK TO THE OUTFITTERS OR TO BE ABLE TO FIND SOMEBODY ELSE IN THE PARK WHO MIGHT BE ABLE TO GO BACK AND PLACE THAT CALL FOR HELP. AND I THINK, AS WELL, UM... REALLY MAKING SURE THERE IS THAT PERSON ON LAND WHO KNOWS WHEN YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE COMING BACK IS SUPER IMPORTANT BECAUSE IF YOU'RE NOT BACK... THE PROVINCIAL COORDINATOR OR THE SEARCH AND RESCUE COORDINATOR FOR THE OPP REALLY STRESSED TO ME THAT, IF PEOPLE ARE NOT BACK IN TIME, DON'T HESITATE TO CALL THE AUTHORITIES. HE SAID, YOU KNOW, "IT'S MUCH EASIER TO DEAL WITH THESE THINGS WHEN WE HEAR OF IT HOURS LATER OR RIGHT IN THE MOMENT RATHER THAN DAYS AND DAYS LATER." AND HE SAID TO ME, EVEN, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE TIME WHEN THEY DO GET CALLED IN, WHAT'S HAPPENED IS THAT SOMEBODY IS INJURED OR, YOU KNOW, THEY MIGHT HAVE SORT OF BITTEN OFF A TRIP THAT IS TOO SIGNIFICANT FOR THEIR ABILITIES. AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE REALLY EMPHASIZED TO ME, START SMALL, START WITH WHAT YOU KNOW YOU CAN DO, AND DON'T... DON'T GO OUT THERE AND TRY AND REALLY FEEL LIKE YOU NEED TO PROVE YOURSELF WITH SOME, YOU KNOW, 14 DAY TREK OR SOMETHING. REALLY START SMALL.

Jeyan says THIS IS GREAT STUFF. NOW, I DON'T WANT TO GET AHEAD OF MYSELF, BUT MAYBE I'LL SEE YOU OUT ON THE WATER THIS SUMMER, POTENTIALLY.

Marsha says I WOULD LOVE THAT.

Jeyan says THANK YOU SO MUCH. AND THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT'S AGENDA IN THE SUMMER. I'M JEYAN JEGANATHAN. THANKS FOR WATCHING TVO AND FOR JOINING US ONLINE AT TVO.ORG. HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND AND NAM WILL SEE YOU AGAIN ON MONDAY.

An animated slate reads "The Agenda in the Summer."

The announcer says THE AGENDA IN THE SUMMER WITH NAM KIWANUKA IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH GENEROUS PHILANTHROPIC CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU FOR SUPPORTING TVO'S JOURNALISM.

An animated slate reads "Ontario Hubs. Ontario Hubs are made possible by The Barry and Laurie Green Family Charitable Trust and Goldie Feldman."

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Copyright The Ontario Educational Communications Authority 2021.

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