Transcript: John Snobelen Phone In | Apr 25, 1996

Steve Paikin sits in the studio against a brownish background, and opposite his guest. He's in his mid-thirties, and has short wavy dark brown hair. He wears a greyish suit jacket, and a light grey t-shirt.

Steve says JOHN SNOBELEN'S TRIAL
BY FIRE CONTINUED
IN THE LEGISLATURE TODAY.
HE WAS THE TARGET OF
VIRTUALLY EVERY QUESTION
DURING QUESTION PERIOD.
THERE WERE RENEWED DEMANDS
FOR HIS RESIGNATION.
THE ACTING N.D.P. LEADER BUD
WILDMAN WAS EJECTED TODAY
FOR ACCUSING THE MINISTER
OF MISLEADING THE PUBLIC,
AND THE LIBERAL LEADER LYN
McLEOD ACCUSED HIM OF LYING.
SO THE MINISTER IS
HERE WITH US TONIGHT.

John Snobelen appears. He is in his early-forties, and has blondish hair with a receding hairline. He is wearing a blue suit jacket, a white shirt, and a matching diamond patterned tie.

Steve continues WHAT DO YOU THINK OF JOHN
SNOBELEN'S POLICIES?
WE WILL BE TAKING YOUR PHONE
CALLS IN JUST A FEW MOMENTS.
THE NUMBER TO CALL IS
1, TRIPLE 8, STUDIO 2.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “1-888-STUDIO-2.” Then it changes to “1-888-788-3462.”

Steve continues THAT’S 1-888-788-3462.
AND WE WELCOME JOHN
SNOBELEN TO
STUDIO 2.
GOOD OF YOU TO SPEND
SOME TIME WITH US TODAY.

John Snobelen says GLAD TO BE HERE.

Steve says YOU ARE HERE FOR
THE FULL HOUR.
WELL, AS WE HAVE SEEN, YOU
HAVE BEEN THE FOCUS OF A
LITTLE BIT OF CONTROVERSY
OVER THE PAST TEN MONTHS.
WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON WHY
YOU HAVE BEEN THE FOCUS
OF SUCH CONTROVERSY?

John Snobelen says WELL, IT'S A
CONTROVERSIAL FILE.
THIS GOVERNMENT WAS ELECTED
TO BRING CHANGES TO ONTARIO.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “John Snobelen, Minister of Education and Training.”

John Snobelen continues AND ONE OF THE MOST
ORGANIZED AND ONE OF THE
MOST IMPORTANT PARTS OF THE
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT IS
OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM.
SO I'M NOT SURPRISED WHEN WE
ARE LOOKING AT MAKING CHANGES
IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT
IT'S CONTROVERSIAL, AND THAT,
OF COURSE, I'M THE POINT
PERSON IN THAT CHANGE.
SO I DEFLECT SOME
OF THAT CRITICISM.

Steve says I REMEMBER WHEN BETTE
STEPHENSON WAS EDUCATION
MINISTER FOR THE TORIES FOR SO
MANY YEARS, AND PEOPLE SPOKE,
THEY DID THE TYPICAL THING IN
PUBLIC, BUT THEN BEHIND THE
SCENES, THEY WOULD SAY
NICE THINGS ABOUT HER.
BEHIND THE SCENES, PEOPLE
ARE NOT SAYING NICE THINGS
ABOUT YOU.
WHY?

John Snobelen says I DON'T KNOW.
OBVIOUSLY, YOU HAVE
TO ASK THOSE PEOPLE.
BUT I THINK WE DO HAVE A VERY
DIFFERENT AGENDA AND A VERY
DIFFERENT SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES
THAN BETTE STEPHENSON WOULD
HAVE FOUND, OR BILL
DAVIS WOULD HAVE FOUND.

Steve says MORE DEBT YOU MEAN?

John Snobelen says OBVIOUSLY, 100
BILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF DEBT.
A PROVINCE WHERE EVERY HOUR WE
FALL A LITTLE FURTHER BEHIND
BY ABOUT A MILLION DOLLARS.
THOSE ARE DIFFERENT
CIRCUMSTANCES.
I LIKE TO SAY IN THOSE DAYS,
NOT VERY LONG AGO, WHEN BETTE
STEPHENSON WAS THE MINISTER,
OUR JOB IN EDUCATION WAS TO
PREPARE YOUNG PEOPLE
FOR THE FUTURE.
AND NOW, WE HAVE AN ADDITIONAL
BURDEN AS EDUCATORS TO
PREPARE THE FUTURE FOR
OUR YOUNG PEOPLE.
AND SO IT'S A DIFFERENT
BURDEN, REALLY.

Steve says IT IS SAID THAT YOU
DON'T HAVE THE RESPECT
OF YOUR CONSTITUENTS.
AND BY THAT, I MEAN ALL THE
SCHOOL BOARD PEOPLE AND THE
TRUSTEES AND, YOU KNOW, FROM
TEACHERS AND ALL THE WAY UP.
HOW CAN YOU MAKE THINGS HAPPEN
IF YOU DON'T HAVE THEM ON SIDE?

John Snobelen says IT HAS BEEN SAID, I'M NOT
SURE WHO IT HAS BEEN SAID BY.

Steve says NOT BY YOUR PALS.

John Snobelen says WELL, WE HAVE WORKED VERY
CLOSE WITH THE SCHOOL BOARD
ASSOCIATIONS, AND I'VE TALKED
WITH A NUMBER OF SCHOOL BOARD
ASSOCIATIONS AND WITH THE
PEOPLE WHO WORK THERE, BOTH
THE PROVINCIAL ORGANIZATIONS
AND THE LOCAL ORGANIZATIONS,
AND I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT
WE'VE HAD, I THINK, A VERY
USEFUL RELATIONSHIP.

Steve says ARE THEY ON SIDE?

John Snobelen says THEY ARE ON SIDE WITH
SOME OF OUR REFORMS.
THEY MIGHT BE A LITTLE OFF
SIDE WITH SOME OTHER CHANGES.

Steve says ARE THEY ON SIDE FOR
400 MILLION IN CUTS?

John Snobelen says I THINK YOU HAD A CLIP A
LITTLE EARLIER THAT SAID
DONNA CANSFIELD WAS TALKING
ABOUT HOW WE DO HAVE TO MAKE
SAVINGS IN THE SYSTEM, AND
HOW WE CAN FIND SAVINGS,
AND HOW WE DO HAVE
TO WORK TOGETHER.
SO I REJECT THE THEORY THAT
WE ARE AT CROSS PURPOSES.

Steve says OKAY, BUT CAN YOU ACHIEVE,
HYPOTHETICALLY, CAN YOU
ACHIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO
ACHIEVE, THE CUTS, REFORMS,
AND SO ON, IF THEY
ARE NOT WITH YOU?

John Snobelen says I THINK WE CERTAINLY
HAVE TO HAVE COOPERATION
IN ORDER TO MAKE
THOSE CHANGES.
BUT I THINK WHEN YOU ARE
LOOKING AT HAVING CHANGE,
YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO,
ESPECIALLY IN A SECTOR WHERE
THERE'S A 14 BILLION BUDGET,
AND THERE ARE A LOT OF VESTED
INTERESTS, YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE
TO WITHSTAND A CERTAIN AMOUNT
OF CRITICISM.
AND YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO
UNDERSTAND THAT PROCESS IS
GOING TO BE RESISTED.

Steve says VESTED INTERESTS.
LET ME PICK UP ON THAT.
I KNOW YOU ARE GOING TO TELL
US, THAT IT'S POSSIBLE, AND
YOU HAVE BEEN TELLING US ALL
ALONG THAT IT'S POSSIBLE TO
CUT 400 MILLION DOLLARS OUT OF
THAT 14 BILLION DOLLAR BUDGET
AND NOT AFFECT
CLASSROOM EDUCATION.
IS THAT TO SUGGEST THAT THOSE
WHO DON'T BELIEVE IT CAN BE
DONE, WHO BELIEVE THAT IT
WILL AFFECT THE CLASSROOM,
THEY'RE JUST VESTED INTERESTS
LOOKING OUT FOR THEIR
OWN SITUATIONS?

John Snobelen says WELL, THERE ARE CERTAINLY A
LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO
PROTECT THE STATUS
QUO IN EDUCATION.
AND, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO
HAVE, I THINK, A GREAT DEAL OF
EMPATHY FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
AT THE POINT OF ANY CHANGE.
AND I THINK THAT'S NORMAL WHEN
YOU ARE LOOKING AT A GREAT
BIG ORGANIZATION GOING
THROUGH A CHANGE PROCESS,
THERE IS GOING
TO BE RESISTANCE.
BUT I THINK THE
NUMBERS ARE VERY CLEAR.
OTHER ORGANIZATIONS HAVE HAD A
LOOK AT OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM,
COMMISSIONS HAVE REPORTED, AND
EVERYONE HAS AGREED THERE IS
POTENTIAL HERE FOR SOME
SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION IN
SPENDING WITHOUT AFFECTING THE
QUALITY OF CLASSROOM EDUCATION.

Steve says YOU'RE NOT IN CHARGE
OF THAT, THOUGH.
IT'S THE SCHOOL BOARDS THAT
ARE GOING TO NEGOTIATE WITH
THE TEACHERS, IT'S THE SCHOOL
BOARDS THAT ENSURE WHAT
QUALITY HAPPENS
IN THE CLASSROOMS.
NOT YOU.
HOW CAN YOU ENSURE CUTS
CAN BE MADE WITHOUT
AFFECTING THE CLASSROOM?

John Snobelen says WELL, THE DESIGN, AS YOU'VE
INDICATED, IN THE PROVINCE
RIGHT NOW IS TO HAVE,
THE PROVINCE HAS CERTAIN
RESPONSIBILITIES, AND THE SCHOOL
BOARD HAS RESPONSIBILITIES.
THE ROYAL COMMISSION POINTED
OUT THAT PERHAPS WE SHOULD
MAKE THOSE RESPONSIBILITIES A
LITTLE MORE CLEAR THAN THEY
CURRENTLY THERE.
AND THAT'S PROBABLY TRUE.
BUT WE HAVE TO WORK IN SOME
PARTNERSHIP BECAUSE OF THE
DESIGN OF EDUCATION
IN THE PROVINCE.

Steve says IT GETS BACK TO MY QUESTION,
WHICH IS, ARE YOU IN A
POSITION TO MAKE
THAT COMMITMENT?
I KNOW YOU'RE THE MINISTER OF
EDUCATION, THEORETICALLY THE
TOP EDUCATION OFFICIAL
IN THE PROVINCE.
BUT YOU DON'T SIGN ANY
CONTRACTS WITH TEACHERS.
YOU DON'T HIRE ANY TEACHERS.
YOU SET GUIDELINES.

John Snobelen says THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE
SUGGESTED THAT WE SHOULD GO
PROVINCE WIDE WITH
COLLECTIVE BARGAINING.
THE SWEENEY REPORT MADE
THAT RECOMMENDATION.
IT'S BEEN MADE
BY OTHER PARTIES.
BUT YOU ARE QUITE CORRECT.
CURRENTLY, WE DO NOT NEGOTIATE
THE DEAL WITH TEACHERS.

Steve says SO CAN YOU MAKE
THE COMMITMENT?
ARE YOU REALLY IN ANY POSITION
TO MAKE THE COMMITMENT THEN?

John Snobelen says I THINK WE CAN CLEARLY POINT
TO WHERE SAVINGS CAN BE HAD.
THE ONTARIO PUBLIC SCHOOL
BOARD'S ASSOCIATION SUGGESTED
SOME SAVINGS TO US A YEAR OR SO
AGO, OR JUST UNDER A YEAR AGO.
WE'VE HAD OTHER TRUSTEE
ASSOCIATIONS RECOMMEND SAVINGS
TO US.
WE'VE TRIED WITH BILL 34, OUR
TOOLS FOR SCHOOLS, IF YOU
WILL, BILL, TO DO WHAT THE
PROVINCE CAN DO TO HELP SCHOOL
BOARDS ARRIVE AT
THOSE LOCAL SOLUTIONS.

Steve says YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST CABINET
MINISTER TO HAVE HAD A COUPLE
OF BACK BENCHERS CRITICIZE
HIM OR HER IN PUBLIC.
AND IT'S HAPPENED TO
YOU THIS PAST WEEK.
AND I MUST SAY, YOU VERY
ARTFULLY AVOIDED IN THE HOUSE,
ALL WEEK LONG, DEALING WITH
THE ACTUAL ISSUES THAT YOUR
TWO BACK BENCHERS ADDRESSED,
NAMELY THAT YOU ARE OUT OF
WHACK, OR THAT YOU LIED ABOUT
THIS 400 MILLION DOLLAR CUT NOT
AFFECTING THE CLASSROOM.
SO I DON'T KNOW, I GUESS
ONE QUESTION COULD BE,
ARE YOU OUT OF WHACK?
BUT I THINK I KNOW HOW YOU
ARE GOING TO ANSWER THAT.

John Snobelen laughs.

Steve continues YOUR TWO BACK BENCHERS OBVIOUSLY
ARE OFF SIDE WITH YOU.
AND THEY OBVIOUSLY REPRESENT
SOME CONSTITUENTS.
HAVE YOU TALKED TO
THEM IN THE MEANTIME?
HAVE YOU BROUGHT
THEM ON SIDE?

John Snobelen says WELL, SURE, I'VE
TALKED WITH THEM.
AND THERE WAS TWO
VERY SEPARATE ISSUES.
I THINK WHAT THE PREMIER
SAID THIS WEEK ABOUT PEOPLE
IN OUR CAUCUS IS VERY TRUE.
THIS GOVERNMENT, UNLIKE
OTHER GOVERNMENTS, THE BACK
BENCHERS IF YOU WILL, OR
CAUCUS MEMBERS, ARE TREATED
WITH A GREAT DEAL OF RESPECT.
THEIR OPINIONS
ARE LISTENED TO.
THE PREMIER ENCOURAGES ALL
82 MEMBERS OF OUR CAUCUS TO
SPEAK UP ON ISSUES.

Steve says YOU DIDN'T WANT THEM TO SPEAK
UP PUBLICLY ABOUT THIS, SURELY.

John Snobelen says I THINK WE HAVE TO REMEMBER
THOSE PEOPLE, ALL OF OUR
CAUCUS IS ELECTED LOCALLY.
THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE TO
THE LOCAL CONSTITUENTS.
AND THEY DO WHAT THEY
THINK IS RIGHT FOR
THE LOCAL CONSTITUENTS.
THAT MAY CAUSE A CABINET
MINISTER SOME EMBARRASSMENT
FROM TIME TO TIME, BUT THE
THEORY THAT OUR CAUCUS IS VERY
IMPORTANT TO OUR GOVERNMENT,
AND THEY NEED TO SPEAK ON
BEHALF OF THEIR CONSTITUENTS
IS ONE TO THE PREMIER.
AND I THINK EVERYONE IN OUR
CAUCUS HOLDS NEAR AND DEAR.

Steve says I'M GOING TO GRAB ONE
MORE QUESTION FROM YOU,
THEN WE'LL GO TO THE PHONES.
PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION.
DO YOU BELIEVE IN LEARNING
FOR LEARNING'S SAKE?

John Snobelen says CERTAINLY.
ABSOLUTELY.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, I THINK
EDUCATION IS THE INTERSECTION
OF KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE.
AND I THINK MOST HUMANS ARE
VERY CURIOUS AND GO THROUGH
LIFE PURSUING EDUCATIONAL
OPPORTUNITIES JUST BECAUSE
THEY ARE CURIOUS.

Steve says SO A JOB AT THE END OF THE
ROAD IS NOT THE IDEOLOGY
DRIVING YOUR REFORMS.

John Snobelen says WELL, IT'S NOT THE BE ALL
END ALL OF ALL EDUCATION.
CERTAINLY, EVERYTHING I'VE
DONE IN MY LIFE WASN'T
DESIGNED AROUND GETTING A JOB.
IT WAS DESIGNED AROUND
FULFILLING THOSE NATURAL
CURIOSITIES I THINK MOST OF
US, IF NOT ALL OF US HAVE.
I THINK WHEN PEOPLE ARE
YOUNGER, WHEN THEY ARE IN OUR
SCHOOL SYSTEM, AND WHEN THEY
ARE FIRST ENTERING INTO EITHER
TRAINING PROGRAM OR UNIVERSITY
PROGRAM, ONE OF THE FIRST
THINGS ON THEIR MIND IS HOW TO
BE GAINFULLY EMPLOYED AND HOW
TO ADD VALUE FROM
THAT POINT OF VIEW.
BUT AS PEOPLE GET OLDER, AND I
THINK WE SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE
RETURNING TO UNIVERSITIES AND
COLLEGES, THEY DO SO QUITE
OFTEN BECAUSE THEY ARE JUST
INTERESTED IN PURSUING
MORE KNOWLEDGE.

Steve says OKAY.
JOHN SNOBELEN IS OUR GUEST,
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION FOR
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO,
FOR THE ENTIRE HOUR.
HE'S HERE TO TAKE
YOUR PHONE CALLS.
LET'S THROW THE NUMBER
UP ONE MORE TIME.
IF YOU WANT TO GET IN ON THE
DISCUSSION HERE IN
STUDIO 2,
THE NUMBER IS
1, TRIPLE 8, STUDIO 2.
1-888-788-3462.
BEFORE WE GO TO THE PUBLIC'S
CALLS, WE'RE GOING TO DO
SOMETHING WE HAVEN'T DONE
BEFORE, JUST THIS ONE TIME,
JUST SPECIAL FOR YOU.
WHEN YOU TOOK OVER, I DON'T
KNOW IF IT WAS A FEW MONTHS,
OR JUST A FEW WEEKS OR WHAT,
YOUR DEPUTY MINISTER WAS FIRED.
NOT BY YOU, I GUESS, I
SHOULD HASTEN TO ADD,
BUT HE WAS FIRED ANYWAY.
WE HAVE HIM ON THE
PHONE RIGHT NOW.
CHARLES PASCAL IS THE FORMER
DEPUTY MINISTER FOR THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
HE IS NOW WITH THE
ATKINSON FOUNDATION AT
THE TORONTO STAR.
HE'S GOT A PIECE, AN OP-ED
PIECE IN
THE TORONTO STAR
TODAY SOMEWHAT CRITICAL OF
THIS GOVERNMENT, ALTHOUGH I
KNOW HE FEELS KINDLY
TOWARDS YOU ON OCCASION.
BUT LET'S FIND OUT
WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT
HOW YOU ARE DOING SO FAR.
CHARLES PASCAL,
ARE YOU THERE?

Charles says I AM, STEVE.

Steve says NICE OF YOU TO
JOIN US TONIGHT.
HOW ABOUT
HOW'S THIS
FOR TURNING THE TABLES?
WHY DON'T YOU GIVE, BEFORE THE
PUBLIC HERE, WHY DON'T YOU
GRADE THE MINISTER.

John Snobelen laughs.

Steve continues THE FORMER DEPUTY GETS TO
GRADE HIS OWN MINISTER IN
FRONT OF THE PUBLIC HERE.
SHOOT.

Charles says FIRST OF ALL, THE MINISTER
AND I WERE TOGETHER FOR SIX
WEEKS, SEVEN HOURS AN
27 AND A HALF MINUTES.

John Snobelen laughs.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Voice of Charles Pascal, Former Deputy Minister.”

Charles continues AND I ENJOYED ALL OF THEM.
THIS IS A VERY FINE PERSON WHO
IS IN A MOST UNUSUAL SPOT.
AND I'M IN AN UNUSUAL SPOT
GIVING MY FORMER MINISTER A
PUBLIC REPORT CARD.
FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THE
REPORT CARD GIVEN TO THE
MINISTER MUST BE TAKEN IN THE
CONTEXT OF WHAT HIS
FAMILY HAS ASKED OF HIM.
AND BY FAMILY, I'M REFERRING
TO HIS PARTY AND HIS CABINET.
AND THE FAMILY HYMN BOOK IS
THE COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION.
SO I'D START OFF THE REPORT
CARD BY SAYING JOHN IS AN
EXTREMELY HONEST AND
LOYAL FAMILY MEMBER.
HE'S A VERY HIGH INTEGRITY
INDIVIDUAL WHO IS PART
OF THE GAME PLAN.
HE RAN, AND HE GOT IN CABINET,
AND YOUR LAST QUESTION,
STEVE, I THOUGHT
WAS A TERRIFIC ONE.
AND THAT IS ASKING JOHN ABOUT
HIS COMMITMENT TO LEARNING.
I THINK THE ISSUE AROUND, YOU
KNOW, JOHN AS A GRADE 11
DROPOUT, AND THE LIFE HE'S
LIVED IS AN AMAZING TESTIMONY
TO HIS PERSONAL COMMITMENT
TO LIFELONG LEARNING.
THIS GUY.

Steve says THERE'S GOT TO BE A 'BUT'
HERE THOUGH, CHARLES.

Charles says WELL, THERE'S SOME BUTS.
HE'S A GOOD DRESSER, TOO.

John Snobelen laughs.

Steve says BUT?

Charles says BUT LET'S START
WITH POST SECONDARY.
JOHN WAS VERY SUCCESSFUL IN
GETTING THE CABINET TO HOLD
OFF ON THE FUTURE CUTS, THAT
IS THE ODD YEAR CUTS TO
COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.
WE'RE ALL WAITING FOR AN
ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT A THREE
PERSON COMMISSION
OR TASK FORCE.

Steve says WHO IS GOING TO CHAIR THAT?
WHILE WE ARE ON THIS,
WHO IS GOING TO CHAIR
THAT TASK FORCE?
IS IT GOING TO
BE BILL DAVIS?

John Snobelen says WE'RE EXAMINING SOME
OF THE POSSIBILITIES.

Steve repeats IS IT GOING TO BE BILL DAVIS?

John Snobelen says AT SOME NEAR DATE, WE'LL
PROBABLY MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT.

Steve says WOULD YOU LIKE TO
HAVE BILL DAVIS?

John Snobelen says WELL, I THINK Mr. DAVIS IS
OBVIOUSLY SOMEBODY WHO IS
COMMITTED TO THE POST
SECONDARY EDUCATION SYSTEM.

Steve insists HAVE YOU ASKED HIM?
HAVE YOU ASKED HIM?

John smiles and says I WON'T ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

Steve smiles and says OKAY, CHARLES, BACK TO YOU.
I DID MY BEST.

Charles says I HAVEN'T BEEN
ASKED EITHER, STEVE.

Steve laughs.

Charles continues I'VE BEEN WAITING BY THE
PHONE FOR FOUR MONTHS.
BUT I HAVE SEEN THE WHITE
PAPER, THE DRAFT WHITE PAPER,
WHICH I'M ONLY ONE OF 7
MILLION PEOPLE WHO HAVE SEEN IT.
MY MOTHER IN VERO BEACH,
FLORIDA, HAS NOT SEEN IT.
I THINK IT'S SOMETHING I WOULD
ADVISE THE MINISTER TO CALL A
TERMS OF REFERENCE BECAUSE
WHAT I'VE SEEN RECENTLY IS
NOT VERY GOOD.
BUT THE FACT THE MINISTER
WAS ABLE TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN
CABINET IN AVOIDING CUTS UNTIL
A FUTURE VISION IS DEVELOPED,
I THINK, WAS A SUCCESS STORY.
BUT LET'S GET TO
ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY.
THE CUTS ARE BIG, PROBABLY
BIGGER THAN THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION SAID THEY
WERE GOING TO BE.
THEY ARE TOO FAST.
THEY ARE TOO MUCH FOR THIS
SYSTEM TO ABSORB, IN MY
OPINION, IN AN INTELLIGENT
AND EFFECTIVE FASHION.
YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNMENT,
I THINK, IS VERY FOND OF
PRETENDING TO BE AN
EFFICIENT PRIVATE SECTOR
KIND OF ORGANIZATION.
AND THERE IS NO VIABLE COMPANY
IN THE CORPORATE WORLD THAT
WOULD TAKE OUT AS MUCH, AS
MANY RESOURCES, SO QUICKLY,
WITHOUT ENSURING THEIR CLIENTS
WERE ON A PEDESTAL SO THEIR
SERVICES WOULDN'T SUFFER AS
A RESULT OF THE DOWNSIZING.
AND AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN
INVOLVED IN EDUCATION FOR A
LONG TIME, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR
ME TO IMAGINE THE CUTS TO THE
SCHOOLS CAN BE DONE WELL.
IT'S TOO BAD BECAUSE I THINK
THIS MINISTER, IF JOHN WERE IN
A CONTEXT WHERE, AND AGAIN,
REMEMBER, HE'S PART OF A TEAM.
A TEAM THAT PAYS A HIGH
DIVIDEND IN ANY GOVERNMENT FOR
LOYALTY, IF THE CUTS WERE MORE
PLANNED, COULD BE DONE IN A
WAY THAT WERE DELIBERATE AND
IN A DOWNWARD TREND, WITH A
LITTLE LESS HURRIEDNESS, BUT
NONETHELESS A DELIBERATE
CONTRIBUTION TO THE
GOVERNMENT'S COFFERS, I THINK
THIS IS A MINISTER THAT COULD
HAVE CARRIED ON MANY OF THE
VERY POSITIVE REFORMS THAT
HAD ALREADY BEEN STARTED
WITH A HEFTY DOSE OF HIS OWN.

Steve says CHARLES, I'M GOING TO JUMP
IN HERE BECAUSE I'VE GOT A
CHRISTMAS TREE IN FRONT OF ME
HERE OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO
GET IN.

Charles says LET ME CONCLUDE THEN.

Steve says SURE.

Charles says I THINK, MY BIGGEST
DISAPPOINTMENT, AND IT'S
SOMETHING I STILL CAN'T
COMPREHEND, AND EVERYTHING
PALES IN COMPARISON TO THIS.
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH GRADE
13 ACTIVITY BEING CUT.
I THINK THE COLLEGE OF
TEACHERS IS A GREAT THING,
AND JOHN HAS MOVED
AHEAD WITH THAT.
BUT MAKING Jr. KINDERGARTEN
OPTIONAL AT THE LOCAL LEVEL IS
INCREDIBLY SHORT-SIGHTED.
WHAT WE OWE EACH OTHER AS A
SOCIETY HAS TO BE MEASURED
BY WHAT WE DO IN OUR
EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM.
AND YOU CAN'T HAVE FAMILIES
AND CHILDREN HAVING UNEQUAL
ACCESS TO EARLY
YEARS PROGRAMMING.
Jr. YEAR KINDERGARTEN, GOOD
DAY CARE, IS ABSOLUTELY KEY
FOR A SOLID HEAD
START TO LEARNING.
AND I THINK THIS IS
ECONOMICALLY AN
INTELLIGENT INVESTMENT.
AND TO LEAVE THIS UP TO THE
WHIM, J.K., UP TO THE WHIM OF
LOCAL TRUSTEES IS SIMPLY NUTS.
I DON'T KNOW HOW HARD JOHN
FOUGHT TO AVOID THAT.
AGAIN, I THINK I'D LEAVE WITH
A POSITIVE COMMENT ABOUT THE
MINISTER, AND THAT IS HE'S
SOMEBODY WHO I THINK HANDLES
SOME OF THIS TOUGH STUFF
WITH GREAT DIGNITY.
I DON'T KNOW HOW HE REMAINS
CONSTRUCTIVE AND POSITIVE AND
AVOIDS BEING TOO DEFENSIVE.

Steve says MUST BE A LEAF FAN.

Charles says I THINK SOME OF THE
THINGS HE'S DONE IS GREAT.
I THINK A LOT OF IT IS NUTS,
AND IT'S SIMPLY NOT GOING TO
WORK, AND IS MORE THAN
JUST A TOUCH DESTRUCTIVE.

Steve says CHARLES, WE THANK YOU VERY
MUCH FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.

Charles says OKAY, TAKE CARE.
TAKE CARE, JOHN.

Steve says THANK YOU, CHARLES.
THAT'S CHARLES PASCAL, FORMER
DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION
FOR THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO
WITH SOME, I THINK YOU'D HAVE
TO SAY, YOU KNOW, STINGING
CRITICISM OF SOME OF WHAT
YOU ARE DOING.
DO YOU WANT TO
ADDRESS SOME OF THAT?

John Snobelen says I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE
LAST COMMENT, WHICH IS ABOUT
J.K., AND I KNOW CHARLES CARES
VERY DEARLY ABOUT CHILDREN,
PARTICULARLY YOUNG CHILDREN,
AS DO I, AND I THINK AS DO ALL
MEMBERS OF OUR CAUCUS.
THE QUESTION IS HOW DO WE GO
ABOUT MAKING SURE THE KIDS WHO
ARE MOST DISADVANTAGED HAVE
ACCESS TO PROGRAMS WHICH,
AT LEAST AS MUCH AS THE
GOVERNMENT CAN, GIVES THEM
AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.
I DON'T KNOW THAT WE CAN ALL
MAKE EVERY YOUNG PERSON'S
OPPORTUNITY COMPLETELY
EQUAL, BUT WE CAN DO
WHAT IS POSSIBLE.

Steve says MAKING J.K. OPTIONAL DOES NOT
SOUND LIKE IT GIVES EVERY
YOUNG KID THE
SAME OPPORTUNITY.

John Snobelen says WELL, WE'VE SAID WE FULFILLED
THAT PROMISE THAT WE MADE IN
THE COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION.

Steve says WAS IT A SMART PROMISE TO
MAKE IN THE FIRST PLACE?

John Snobelen says WHEN I CAME THROUGH I
CAMPAIGNED ON THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION, AND I DIDN'T
CAMPAIGN ON BITS AND PIECES
OF IT, I CAMPAIGNED
ON ALL OF IT.
BUT WHEN I CAME TO THE DOORS
AT THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION,
WE HAD MADE A FEW VERY
SPECIFIC COMMITMENTS TO
THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO,
RESTORING J.K. AS A LOCAL
OPTION WAS ONE OF THOSE.
AND WE SAID WE WOULD STUDY
THE J.K. PROGRAM WITH A VIEW TO
MAKING SURE WE CAME UP WITH
A PROGRAM THAT ADDRESSED THE
NEEDS OF, AGAIN, THE MOST
AT RISK YOUNG CHILDREN
IN THE PROVINCE.
THERE WAS SOME PILOT PROJECTS
THAT WERE ABOUT TO START THAT
I HAD TO END AS SOON AS I
BECAME THE MINISTER FOR
THREE
YEAR
OLD PROGRAMS.
AND WE JUST FISCALLY
COULD NOT HANDLE THAT.
IT WAS ABOUT A BILLION
DOLLARS WORTH OF PROGRAMMING.

Steve says WALLY IN MEAFORD, I'M GOING
TO COME TO YOU IN ONE SECOND.
I WANT TO JUST GET ONE MORE
QUESTION TO THE MINISTER HERE.
AND THAT IS, YOU ALSO HEARD
Mr. PASCAL SAY THAT YOU CAN'T
CUT, THAT NO BUSINESS, AND I
KNOW THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS NOT
SOMETHING YOU'RE
UNFAMILIAR WITH.
NO BUSINESS COULD CUT
THIS MUCH, THIS FAST,
OR WOULD CUT THIS
MUCH THIS FAST.
WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

John Snobelen says WELL, I THINK WE HAVE
DIFFERENT, OBVIOUSLY,
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE
PRIVATE SECTOR AND THE
PUBLIC SECTOR.
AND I'D SUGGEST THAT IF A
PRIVATE SECTOR COMPANY WAS
TOLD TO REDUCE THEIR COSTS BY
3 PERCENT OVER THE COURSE OF A
YEAR, AND GIVEN SIX OR EIGHT
MONTHS NOTICE, THAT THEY WOULD
BE ABLE TO RESPOND TO THAT WITH
A SMILE IN MOST INDUSTRIES.
THERE ARE LOTS OF FOLKS
WATCHING THIS EVENING WHO HAVE
DONE CONSIDERABLY MORE THAN
THAT IN THEIR PERSONAL LIVES
OR IN THEIR BUSINESS LIVES.
THAT WOULD NOT BE
A BIG CHALLENGE.
BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE
THAT COMPARISON COMPLETELY
BECAUSE THIS IS A
DIFFERENT SYSTEM.
IT HAS VERY LONG LEAD TIMES
ON SOME OF THE WAYS YOU CAN
AFFECT THE COSTS.
AND SO I AGREE THERE'S
A CHALLENGE THERE.
AND I THINK THAT GETTING OUR
SYSTEM MORE AFFORDABLE IS
A CHALLENGE.
IT'S A CHALLENGE NOT ONLY TO
THIS GOVERNMENT BUT TO PEOPLE
WHO DELIVER EDUCATION,
THE BOARDS, THE SCHOOLS.
SO WE HAVE TO BE CONSCIOUS OF
HOW MUCH MONEY CAN BE REDUCED
FROM THE SYSTEM WITHOUT
AFFECTING THE CLASSROOM AND
THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION.

Steve says OKAY, I'M GOING TO DO MY BEST
TO GET OUT OF THE WAY NOW
AND LET THE VIEWERS
HAVE AT YOU.
WALLY FROM MEAFORD, IT IS
YOUR TURN IN
STUDIO 2
WITH JOHN SNOBELEN.
GO AHEAD, PLEASE.

Wally says GOOD EVENING.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Wally, Meaford.”

Wally continues Mr. MINISTER, THE CRITICISM
OF YOUR BACK BENCHERS IN THE
HOUSE THIS WEEK, YOU MENTION
THAT NO BOARD SHOULD BE CUT BY
MORE THAN 1.7 PERCENT OF
THEIR OPERATING BUDGET.
ANY RESPONSE TO THAT?

John Snobelen says WELL, AS AN AFFECT OF OUR
REDUCTIONS OF OUR SAVINGS
PROGRAMS FOR THIS YEAR, THE
400 MILLION DOLLARS THAT THE MINISTER
OF FINANCE ANNOUNCED BACK IN
NOVEMBER 29th, AS A RESULT OF
THAT, WE'VE MITIGATED THE
EFFECT ON A ONE YEAR BASIS
WITH A MORATORIUM ON CAPITAL.
SO I BELIEVE THAT IT'S 1.7 OR
1.8 PERCENT WHICH WOULD BE
THE REDUCTION
ATTRIBUTED TO THAT.
NOW THERE ARE OTHER FACTORS
THAT AFFECT THE GENERAL
LEGISLATIVE GRANTS.
ASSESSMENT FACTORS, STUDENT
POPULATION FACTORS, THAT MAY
CAUSE OTHER CHANGES
IN THE GRANT FORMULA.

Steve says YOU GOT A QUESTION, WALLY?

Wally says YES, I DO.

Steve says GO AHEAD.

Wally says I'M THE CHAIR OF THE GREY
COUNTRY BOARD OF EDUCATION.

Steve says OKAY.

Wally says WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO
GET YOUR ATTENTION.
OUR MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT,
BILL MURDOCH, HE TRIED.
HE CALLED YOU OUT OF WHACK.
WHEN YOU SHOOT THAT MESSENGER,
I HOPE YOU DON'T SHOOT US,
TOO, BECAUSE THAT WASN'T
QUITE OUR MESSAGE.

Steve and John Snobelen laugh.

Wally continues WE WERE JUST SIMPLY SAYING,
WE'RE NOT AGAINST YOUR CUTS.
WE'RE SAYING JUST
ALLOCATE THEM FAIRLY.
AND BASED ON SOME OF THE
THINGS YOU'VE BEEN SAYING, AND
I HEARD Mr. HARRIS SAY THE
SAME THING ON A C.B.C. RADIO SHOW
THAT NO BOARD SHOULD BE
REDUCED BY MORE THAN
2 PERCENT OF ITS BUDGET.

Steve says WHAT'S YOUR SITUATION, WALLY?
ARE YOU BEING
ASKED TO CUT MORE?

Wally says OVER 5 PERCENT.
WE'RE FACING A 10 PERCENT
INCREASE ON THE MILL RATE,
WHICH IS JUST UNPALATABLE.
WE'RE A RURAL BOARD.
WE'VE CUT AND CUT OVER
THE LAST FOUR YEARS.
WE'VE BEEN CALLED FOOLISH
BECAUSE WE CUT SO EARLY.

Steve says AND NOW YOU FEEL
YOU'RE BEING PENALIZED.

Wally says WE'RE BEING PENALIZED
FOR DOING IT TOO SOON.
I THOUGHT WE WERE MAKING
SOUND BUSINESS DECISIONS,
BUT NOW WE ARE
SAYING WE'RE FOOLS.

Steve says MINISTER?

John Snobelen says WELL, I DID MEET WITH YOUR
MEMBER EARLIER THIS WEEK AND
RECEIVED A COMMUNICATION FROM
YOU AND WILL BE RESPONDING
TO THAT VERY SOON.
AND BY VERY SOON, I MEAN
IF WE HAVEN'T ALREADY,
WE WILL BY THE FIRST
OF NEXT WEEK.

Wally says YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY, BUT
THAT'S GOOD NEWS, MINISTER.

John Snobelen says WE WILL ADDRESS
THOSE CONCERNS.
AS I SAID, THERE ARE SOME
BOARDS WHERE THE AFFECT WILL
BE MORE THAN 2 PERCENT AS
THE RESULT OF THE ASSESSMENT
BASES AND OTHER THINGS.
AND I DO UNDERSTAND THERE ARE
BOARDS WHO HAVE BEEN TRYING
VERY HARD TO SAVE MONEY
OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS,
AND IT'S GOING TO
BE VERY DIFFICULT.
I HOPE I DIDN'T MAKE
LIGHT OF THE SITUATION,
THAT IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT
SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES.
BUT I THINK IT'S DOABLE.
I THINK WE NEED TO
WORK WITH BOARDS,
AND I HOPE I'VE MADE
THAT CLEAR ALREADY, TOO.

Steve says Mr. CHAIRMAN OF THE GREY
COUNTY BOARD OF ED,
WE'RE GLAD YOU GOT THROUGH.
LET'S GO TO PORT HOPE, WHERE
MARGARET IS STANDING BY FOR
YOU, Mr. SNOBELEN.
GO AHEAD, MARGARET.

Margaret says HI, Mr. MINISTER.
FIRST OF ALL, I AGREE THAT WE
CAN MAKE THE EDUCATION CUTS
THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Margaret, Port Hope.”

Margaret continues WHAT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IS
WHY THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT
ENFORCING MAJOR CUTS
TO THE ADMINISTRATION?
WHY THE BOARDS ARE
HITTING THE TEACHERS,
I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND.
THEY ARE THE ONES WHO
CAN BE TRULY ACCOUNTABLE.
MORE STUDENTS, MORE STRUCTURE,
AND BACK TO BASICS ARE MY
ANSWERS TO THE PROBLEM,
AND CUT FROM THE TOP DOWN.
WHY ARE YOU NOT
ENFORCING THIS?

John Snobelen says CAN YOU?
WELL, WE CAN DO A
CERTAIN AMOUNT OF THAT.
AND I THINK WE CAN LEAD BY
EXAMPLE, TO A CERTAIN DEGREE.
WE, AS YOU KNOW, ENDED THE
GOLD PLATED PENSION FOR M.P.Ps
LAST WEEK.
ALL PARTY AGREEMENT.
SO IT'S NOT A
PARTISAN SITUATION.
WE ALSO TOOK ANOTHER
5 PERCENT ROLL BACK.

Steve says SALARY IS HIGHER.
SALARY IS HIGHER.

John Snobelen says I THINK THAT'S ALL THE NET
COMPENSATION PACKAGE IS LESS.
THEY TELL ME.

Margaret says OUT HERE IN NORTHUMBERLAND
I FEEL THE BOARD IS WAY
TOO BIG FOR THE AREA.
LIKE WE COULD LIVE WITHOUT
HALF OF THEM OVER THERE.

Steve says MARGARET, MY QUESTION THOUGH
IS IS THAT THE EXPERIENCE
ACROSS THE PROVINCE, WHERE
SCHOOL BOARDS ARE CUTTING
TEACHERS, RATHER THAN
ADMINISTRATION, IN ORDER TO
ACHIEVE THE CUTS YOU
WANT TO SEE ACHIEVED?

Margaret says AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED,
THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING.
THE TOP ADMINISTRATION IS
STAYING, AND THE TEACHERS ARE
THE ONES BEING HIT.
AND I THINK THE TEACHERS
ARE MORE IMPORTANT
TO ALL OUR CHILDREN.
I THINK THEY ARE THE ONES
WHO ARE ACCOUNTABLE TO US.

Steve says LET ME GET THE MINISTER'S
CROSS PROVINCE ON THIS.

John Snobelen says WELL, THERE'S BEEN SOME
MIX, I THINK, OF RESPONSE
BY DIFFERENT BOARDS.
AND IT'S NOT ALL IN YET.
WE ARE NOW LOOKING AT A
PERIOD OF NEGOTIATION LAY OFF
NOTICES IN THE WAY THAT TEACHER
NEGOTIATIONS ARE DONE WITH THE
UNIONS ARE OFTEN EXAGGERATED
AT THE START OF THE
NEGOTIATING PROCESS, I'M TOLD.
DIFFERENT BOARDS HAVE
RESPONDED DIFFERENTLY.
WE'LL HAVE A BETTER PICTURE, I
THINK, AT THE END OF THE NEXT
MONTH OR SO ON HOW BOARDS
ARE GOING TO DEAL WITH
THE REDUCTIONS.
BUT SOME OF THE NUMBERS IN
THE EDUCATION SYSTEM ARE
FAIRLY STARTLING.
NOW, THEY CHANGE FROM BOARD
TO BOARD A LITTLE BIT,
BUT ACROSS THE PROVINCE, WE
OBVIOUSLY HAVE SOME ROOM
TO MOVE, I THINK, IN OUR
ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS.
Mr. SWEENEY HAS
MADE A REPORT TO US.
THE SWEENEY COMMISSION.
WE HAVE ASKED OUR LOCAL M.P.Ps
FROM ALL OUR PARTIES TO TALK
WITH THEIR CONSTITUENTS AND
GIVE THEM TO THE END OF MAY TO
GIVE US SOME FEEDBACK ON HOW
PEOPLE THINK THE BOARD SHOULD
BE STRUCTURED.
BECAUSE THE PROVINCE, IS,
IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS,
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE STRUCTURE
OF THE BOARD, THE NUMBER OF
TRUSTEES, AND THIS
SORT OF ISSUE.
AND WE WILL MOVE ON THAT.

Steve says DENNIS IN TORONTO.
YOUR TURN WITH JOHN
SNOBELEN, GO AHEAD.

Dennis says YES.
Mr. SNOBELEN, I'M A TEACHER
IN THE METROPOLITAN AREA.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Dennis, Toronto.”

Dennis continues AND MY CONCERNS LIE MOSTLY
WITH THE IDEA SURROUNDING
CURRICULUM, NOT SO MUCH
DOLLARS AND CENTS.
WE'VE HEARD NUMEROUS
DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE WAY
MONEY IS TREATED
IN THE SYSTEM.
BUT WE SHOULD NOT LOSE SIGHT
OF THE FACT THE MINISTRY OF
EDUCATION SHOULD LEAD THE
PROVINCE IN THE WAY OF DECIDING
WHAT KINDS OF CHANGES IN
CURRICULUM ARE GOING TO BE
NECESSARY WITH THE ELIMINATION
OF O.A.C., WITH THE ELIMINATION
OF JK, FOR A NUMBER OF BOARDS.
BUT WE SEEM TO SEE OR HEAR
VERY LITTLE FROM THE MINISTRY
ON THAT FRONT.
WE SEEM TO HEAR VERY LITTLE
FROM YOU ON THAT FRONT.
AND WE SEEM TO HEAR EVEN LESS,
OTHER THAN LEAKED DOCUMENTS,
TO PRINCIPALS, ADMINISTRATORS,
OH, AND WE'VE ALMOST FORGOT
ABOUT TEACHERS THEMSELVES
IN THIS EQUATION.
AND IT'S VERY SAD TO SAY THIS
MINISTRY HAS IGNORED, IGNORED
IN FACT, MOST EDUCATION
PRINCIPLES IN FAVOUR OF
TALKING FINANCIAL DYNAMICS.
IF YOU COULD ANSWER THAT,
I WOULD APPRECIATE IT.

John Snobelen says I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU A
QUESTION, IF I COULD, THOUGH.
I KNOW IT WORKS THE OTHER WAY,
AND THAT IS, WHAT PRINCIPLES
HAVE WE IGNORED?

Steve says DENNIS, ARE YOU THERE?
HE HUNG UP.

John smiles and says I UNDERSTAND THAT'S NOT THE
WAY THIS SORT OF THING WORKS.

Steve says FEEL FREE.
GO CRAZY.

John Snobelen says WE WILL BE RELEASING, IN THE
VERY NEAR TERM, OUR OUTLINES
FOR THE FOUR
YEAR SECONDARY
SCHOOL PROGRAM, WHICH IS A
MAJOR CHANGE IN CURRICULUM.
WE'VE TALKED ABOUT WHAT WE
WANT TO SEE AT THE END OF THAT
PROCESS, AND THAT IS THE
SAME HIGH LEVELS OF STUDENT
ACHIEVEMENT FOR THOSE DESTINED
FOR UNIVERSITY, AN INCREASE
IN THE AMOUNT OF CO-OP
EDUCATION THAT'S AVAILABLE,
AND THE KIND OF TRAINING
THAT'S AVAILABLE FOR THE
60 PERCENT OF OUR HIGH SCHOOL
STUDENTS WHO ARE GOING INTO
THE WORLD OF WORK AFTER
THEY LEAVE HIGH SCHOOL.
ALTHOUGH, IN THIS KNOWLEDGE
AGE, MAYBE THEY'LL RETURN TO
UNIVERSITY AT SOME LATER TIME.

Steve says MARY IN OAKVILLE,
YOUR TURN IN
STUDIO 2.
GO AHEAD.

Mary says GOOD EVENING, MINISTER.

John Snobelen says GOOD EVENING.

Mary says I REPRESENT THE HALTON
ALLIANCES SCHOOL PARENT
ORGANIZATIONS WHICH IS
COMPOSED OF OVER 30 SCHOOL
PARENT GROUPS.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Mary, Oakville.”

Mary continues WE WERE FORMED IN RESPONSE
TO THE VERY DRASTIC CUTS
BY OUR BOARD OF EDUCATION TO
PROGRAMS, TEACHING STAFF,
AND SUPPORT STAFF.
OUR QUESTION IS THIS.
WHAT IS THE MINISTER'S
DEFINITION OF A CLASSROOM?
AND WHAT ARE THE SPECIFIC
ELEMENTS OF EDUCATION THAT
CANNOT BE CUT?

John Snobelen says WELL, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION,
AND ONE I THINK WE ARE BEING
HELPED WITH BY TWO REPORTS.
ONE IS THE SWEENEY COMMISSION
THAT REPORTED ABOUT A MONTH
AGO THAT SAID 47 PERCENT OF
EDUCATION SPENDING HAPPENS
OUTSIDE OF THE CLASSROOM.
WE WILL BE HEARING FROM THE
WORKING GROUP ON EDUCATION
FINANCE REFORM SOON, AND
THEY WILL BE GIVING US THEIR
DEFINITION OF CLASSROOM
EXPENDITURES, AND ALSO WHAT
EXPENDITURES HAPPEN IN
DIFFERENT AREAS OF THE PROVINCE.
SO I THINK THOSE
WILL BE USEFUL.
IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF
THE MEASURES OF CLASSROOM
EXPENDITURE THAT ARE
CONTROVERSIAL,
ONE IS THEM WHOLE AREA OF
HOW MUCH TIME TEACHERS
ACTUALLY SPEND IN THE
CLASSROOM IN THE PROVINCE.
THAT'S AN AREA OF
GREAT CONTROVERSY.
WHAT KIND OF COURSE LOAD
DIFFERENT TEACHERS HAVE.
AND THERE IS A CONSIDERABLE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE
ELEMENTARY PANEL AND THE
SECONDARY SCHOOL PANEL, AND
BETWEEN TEACHERS WHO
TEACH DIFFERENT SUBJECTS IN
THE SECONDARY SCHOOL PANEL.
SO THAT'S ONE OF THE MORE
CONTROVERSIAL AREAS.

Steve says DO TEACHERS GET
TOO MUCH PREP TIME?

John Snobelen says WELL, THEY GET MORE PREP TIME,
IT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT TO US
BY THE BOARD'S REPORT, THEY
GET MORE PREP TIME THAN THEIR
COLLEAGUES IN OTHER
JURISDICTIONS IN CANADA?

Steve says TOO MUCH?

John Snobelen says WELL, WE'RE THE LOWEST
PROVINCE IN TERMS OF OUR
STUDENT TEACHER RATIO, AT 15
TO 1, YET OUR CLASS SIZE IS
ABOUT THE AVERAGE IN CANADA,
WHICH RANGES BETWEEN 22 AND A
HALF AND 24 AND A HALF.
SO WHEN SOMEONE HAS A STUDENT
IN A CLASS OF 32, AND YOU
TELL THEM THE TEACHER RATIO
IN THE PROVINCE IS 15 TO ONE,
THAT PARENT HAS A PROBLEM.

Steve says LISE IN HAWKESBURY.
YOUR TURN WITH JOHN SNOBELEN.
GO AHEAD.
LISE, ARE YOU THERE?
OH, LISE?
I'D HAVE WAITED FOR YOU.
SYLVIA, IN TORONTO.
YOU'RE ON.
GO AHEAD.
OH, SYLVIA,
ARE YOU THERE?

Sylvia says HI.

Steve smiles and says OKAY, GO AHEAD.
JOHN SNOBELEN IS HERE
FOR YOUR QUESTIONS.

Sylvia says PLEASE, Mr. MINISTER,
DO FORGIVE ME MY ACCENT.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Sylvia, Toronto.”

John smiles and says OH, CERTAINLY.
HI, SYLVIA.

Sylvia says I'M CURRENT A STUDENT
AT SENECA COLLEGE.
I'M TRYING TO STRUGGLE
WITH MY ENGLISH,
AND I'M A STUDENT
OF ACCOUNTING.

John Snobelen says YES.

Sylvia says MY QUESTION IS, DURING THE
PERIOD I'VE BEEN STUDYING
FINANCIAL AID, OSAP, WHEN
I FINISH MY STUDY, I WILL
ARRANGE, AFTER SIX MONTHS,
MY PAYMENT LOAN, RIGHT?
AND WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND
IS WHEN I AM STUDY IN THIS
COUNTRY, I'M PREPARING MYSELF
TO GET AN EDUCATION, BE A
BETTER CITIZEN, OR BETTER
JOB, INDEED, I WILL BE PAYING
TAXES, RIGHT?
BUT MY QUESTION IS, WITH ALL
THESE CUTS, SENECA COLLEGE IS
CUTTING THE TIME OF OUR
SEMESTER BY WEEKS, INCREASING
OUR FEES BY ALMOST 10 PERCENT.
FROM WHERE WE ARE GOING
TO GET THE MONEY?
ARE YOU SELECTING THE STUDENT
OR THE SOCIETY FOR THE
WEALTHY PEOPLE?

John Snobelen says THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION
BECAUSE IT'S A QUESTION OF
CONCERN TO A LOT OF
PEOPLE IN THE PROVINCE.
CERTAINLY, ONE OF THE
FUNDAMENTALS TO OUR POST
SECONDARY SCHOOL SYSTEM
IS ACCESSIBILITY.
AND WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT
PEOPLE WHO HAVE BOTH THE
DESIRE AND THE KNOWLEDGE, OR
ABILITY, CAN ACCESS OUR POST
SECONDARY SCHOOL PROGRAMS.
THAT'S A CRITICAL ISSUE FOR
US IN THE FUTURE OF ONTARIO.
IT'S PART OF THE DISCUSSION
PAPER THAT WE'LL BE RELEASING
IN THE VERY NEAR FUTURE, TO
HAVE A LOOK AT WHAT SHOULD BE
PUBLIC POLICY IN THIS AREA.
AND AS FAR AS STUDENT SUPPORT,
WE WILL SPEND HUNDREDS OF
MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON STUDENT
SUPPORT OVER THE NEXT YEAR.
WE ARE LOOKING TO INVEST IN
AN INCOME CONTINGENT LOANS
PACKAGE, WHICH WILL BE BETTER,
I THINK, FOR STUDENTS.
IT WILL GIVE THEM A LONGER
PERIOD OF TIME TO PAY OFF THE
STUDENT LOANS.
WE'RE PURSUING
THAT VERY RAPIDLY.

Steve says DO YOU THINK THAT
WILL BE IN THE BUDGET?
THE INCOME CONTINGENT
LOAN PROGRAM?

John Snobelen says WE WON'T BE ABLE TO IN TERMS
OF THIS BUDGET BECAUSE WE HAVE
TO WORK WITH OUR
FEDERAL COUNTERPARTS.
AND I DON'T MEAN TO SAY THAT
THERE'S ANY RESISTANCE FROM
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
THERE'S A PROCESS WE HAVE TO
GO THROUGH, AND WE'RE GOING
THROUGH THAT AS
QUICKLY AS WE CAN.

Steve says PEOPLE LIKE SYLVIA, I MUST
CONFESS, THIS IS ONE ISSUE
I'VE HEARD A LOT ABOUT, TOO.
AND PEOPLE LIKE SYLVIA ARE
SAYING WHILE YOU SAY WHAT YOU
JUST SAID, IN FACT, WHAT YOU
ARE DOING IS MAKING IT MUCH
MORE DIFFICULT FOR HER TO GET
TO WHERE SHE WANTS TO GET TO
BY THE END OF THE DAY.

John Snobelen says WELL, LET'S LOOK AT
THE TUITION FEES.
AND I APPRECIATE THERE IS
SOME PUBLIC DISCOURSE ON WHO
SHOULD PAY FOR PEOPLE'S
UNIVERSITY OR COLLEGE EDUCATION.
I THINK MOST REASONABLE PEOPLE
WOULD SUSPECT THAT THERE IS
SOME BALANCE BETWEEN THE
TAXPAYER SUPPORT AND THE
INDIVIDUAL WHO IS RECEIVING
THE EDUCATION SUPPORT.
AND AT THIS POINT IN TIME, OUR
TUITION FEES FOR OUR COLLEGES
AND UNIVERSITIES IN ONTARIO
ARE ABOUT THE AVERAGE OF
TUITIONS THAT ARE
PAID ACROSS CANADA.

Steve says TUITION REPRESENTS...
IN TERMS THE COST OF
EDUCATING A STUDENT?

John Snobelen says IT DEPENDS ON WHICH
PROGRAM AND WHICH COLLEGE,
AND I THINK IT'S REALLY
AN UNFAIR AVERAGE.

Steve says ROUGHLY WHAT, 20 PERCENT?

John Snobelen says IN THAT REALM, AND
UP TO PERHAPS 25,
DEPENDING ON THE PROGRAM.

Steve says OKAY.
LET'S GO UP NORTH.
JIM IN THE SIOUX, WE'RE HAPPY
TO HEAR FROM YOU TONIGHT.
GO AHEAD.

Jim says GOOD EVENING.
NO REAL QUESTION,
JUST A COMMENT.

Steve says SHOOT.

Jim says ACROSS THE BOARD WAGE CUTS IS
WHAT KEEPS COMING TO MIND TO
EVERYBODY.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Jim, Sault Sainte Marie.”

Jim continues THAT'S BEEN THE
ARGUMENT OVER THE LAST
20 YEARS WITH THE UNIONS AND
TEACHERS, IS WHAT'S BEST
FOR THE STUDENT?
WHAT'S BEST FOR THE STUDENT,
AND WHAT'S BEST FOR THE STUDENT?
I DON'T HEAR THAT ANYMORE.
ALL OF A SUDDEN, THAT'S
MYSTICALLY DROPPED OFF.
AND IT'S INCREASED
CLASS SIZES.
EVERYTHING, BUT
LEAVE MY WAGE ALONE.
IT'S LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE
IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR,
WORKS ON A SIMPLE FUNDAMENTAL
SUPPLY AND DEMAND.
AND RIGHT NOW,
THERE ARE NO JOBS.
FOR STUDENTS, THERE'S
VERY FEW JOBS.
WHAT'S THE HURRY
ON THE EDUCATION?
THE WAY I ALMOST FEEL, A 15
PERCENT WAGE CUT LOOKS REAL
BAD, BUT IT DOESN'T LOOK
BAD WHEN YOU COMPARE TO,
WELL, SHUT THINGS
DOWN FOR A YEAR?
WHAT'S THE HURRY ANYWAY?
THERE ISN'T A LOT OF JOBS.
AND THIS IS A GOLDEN
OPPORTUNITY, ACTUALLY, TO
FINALLY STRAIGHTEN SOMETHING
OUT THAT HAS HAD A VERY STRONG
UNION, THE STRONGEST UNION,
I THINK, AND I DON'T ENVY YOU
BECAUSE I THINK YOU ARE UP
AGAINST ONE OF THE TOUGH ONES,
BUT ALL YOU HAVE TO DO
IS TAKE A FIRM LINE.
60,000 DOLLARS PLUS FOR 152 DAYS WORK
OUT OF THE YEAR IS EXPENSIVE.

Steve says JIM, THANKS FOR THE SHOUT.

Jim says OKAY.

Steve says CAN YOU CUT TEACHERS' WAGES?

John Snobelen says CAN THE PROVINCE?
NO, NOT DIRECTLY.
WE WERE ASKED TO OVERRIDE
COLLECTIVE AGREEMENTS,
AND WE THINK THE RIGHT
APPROACH IS TO DO WHAT WE SAID
WE'D DO DURING THE ELECTION, AND
THAT IS RETURN TO COLLECTIVE
BARGAINING AND ALLOW THE
PARTIES CONCERNED TO GO AT
THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING.

Steve says THIS IS ONE OF THE
GREAT IRONIES, EH?
THE N.D.P. BROUGHT IN THE
SOCIAL CONTRACT, BREAKING
COLLECTIVE, AND YOU'RE
BRINGING IT BACK IN AND
SAYING IT'S SACRED.

John Snobelen says WELL, WE WOULD LIKE TO AT
LEAST GIVE THE SYSTEM A CHANCE
TO ACCEPT THE CHALLENGE AND
DEFINE THAT AFFORDABILITY
THAT'S IMPORTANT TO TAXPAYERS.
BUT LET ME SAY
SOMETHING ABOUT WAGES.
THERE ARE OTHER PROVINCES.
ONTARIO IS NOT ALONE IN TAKING
ON A VERY, WHAT BY MOST
MEASURES IS A VERY
EXPENSIVE SCHOOLING SYSTEM.
OTHER PROVINCES
ARE DOING THIS.
TWO OR THREE OTHER PROVINCES
IN CANADA HAVE EFFECTED A WAGE
ROLL BACK FROM TEACHERS.
THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET IN
ONTARIO, BUT I THINK THERE ARE
BOARDS AND INDIVIDUAL UNIONS
THAT ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT
EVEN AS WE SPEAK AND
PRODUCTIVITY ISSUES.
LOOKING TO PROTECT THE YOUNGER
TEACHERS IN THE CLASSROOM.
LOOKING AT HOW DO WE
ENCOURAGE, PERHAPS, OLDER
TEACHERS TO RETIRE
A LITTLE QUICKER.

Steve says IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A GUESS,
WHICH BOARDS IN ONTARIO ARE
GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL
IN ROLLING BACK WAGES?

John Snobelen says OH, GOSH, THERE'S OVER
160 BOARDS IN ONTARIO.
I THINK, I HOPE, HERE'S MY
REAL WISH, AND THAT IS THE
BOARDS ARE ABLE TO BARGAIN ON
AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS FROM THE
TEACHER FEDERATIONS.
WE'VE ALREADY HEARD FROM ONE
TEACHER FEDERATION THAT THEY
INTEND TO BARGAIN AS IF
THERE WERE PROVINCE WIDE
BARGAINING, SO THEY DON'T WANT
TO RESPECT LOCAL SITUATIONS.
AND I THINK THAT'S
REGRETTABLE.

Steve says JOHN IN KINGSTON.
JOHN SNOBELEN IS HERE TO TAKE
YOUR COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS.
GO AHEAD, PLEASE.

John says YES, I HAVE A SON WHO IS
IN GRADE NINE AT K.T.B.I.
HERE IN KINGSTON.
HE'S A BRIGHT LAD,
ENJOYS LEARNING.
SUMMER IS COMING UP.
HE WILL HAVE EIGHT TO TEN
WEEKS WHERE REALLY HE WILL
HAVE NO CHALLENGES
EDUCATIONALLY.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “John, Kingston.”

John continues AND WITH THE CUTS, I'M
WONDERING IF THERE IS SOME WAY
OUR PUBLIC BUILDINGS, WHICH
ARE SO EXPENSIVE, CAN BE USED
IN THE SUMMER FOR STUDENTS
WHO WISH TO PURSUE
THEIR EDUCATION.
OR IF THERE IS SOME WAY THE
LEGISLATION CAN BE CHANGED SO
THAT THE CORRESPONDENCE
COURSES CAN BE TAKEN
BY THESE STUDENTS
IN THE SUMMERTIME.

Steve says THAT'S AN
INTERESTING QUESTION.
HOW ABOUT THAT?

John Snobelen says I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT
THE CORRESPONDENCE SIDE,
WE WILL BE LOOKING AT DRASTIC
IMPROVEMENTS IN OUR DISTANCE
EDUCATION CAPABILITIES
OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS.
AND NOT ONLY A DRAMATIC
REDUCTION IN COSTS, BUT ALSO
AN ENHANCED ABILITY
TO TAKE THOSE COURSES.
IF YOU LOOK, THOUGH, AT THE
ORIGINAL PART OF YOUR QUESTION
ABOUT YEAR ROUND SCHOOLING,
THIS HAS BEEN TRIED
IN SEVERAL AREAS.
IT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED IN
SOME AREAS OF ONTARIO.
AND IF YOU DO IT JUST
AS A FINANCIAL DRIVER,
IT DOESN'T REALLY HAVE
MUCH OF AN EFFECT.
ONE OF THE SENIOR COSTS IN
OUR SYSTEM IS THE LABOUR.
AND OUR CAPITAL COSTS,
ALTHOUGH THEY ARE EXPENSIVE,
WE SPEND ABOUT 1.2 BILLION
MAINTAINING SCHOOLS A YEAR,
IT'S JUST IN THE WHOLE PACKAGE
OF THINGS NOT A BIG VARIABLE.
WHEN YOU TAKE IN THE EFFECT OF
AIR
CONDITIONING IN SCHOOLS,
PARTICULARLY OLDER SCHOOLS.

Steve says DOESN'T SAVE YOU
ANY MONEY, EH?

John Snobelen says THE BOTTOM LINE IS IT'S
NOT A LOT MORE EFFICIENT.
HOWEVER, I DO AGREE WITH YOU
THAT WE HAVE STUDENTS WHO
WOULD LIKE TO BE LEARNING OVER
THE COURSE OF THOSE MONTHS OFF,
AND IT MIGHT BE USEFUL FOR
THEM TO HAVE THAT ABILITY TO.

Steve says DO YOU HAVE TO PASS SOME LAW
TO GIVE SCHOOL BOARDS THE
POWER TO KEEP SCHOOLS OPEN
ALL YEAR, OR RUN THEIR OWN
CALENDAR OR SOMETHING?

John Snobelen says WELL, WE'D LIKE TO HAVE
SCHOOLS RUN THEIR OWN CALENDAR.
AND I SAID BEFORE WE WILL HAVE
A LOOK AT THAT AND SEE WHAT
WE NEED TO DO TO
ENCOURAGE THAT.
BECAUSE THERE ARE DIFFERENT
PARTS OF THE PROVINCE, IF YOU
GO INTO SOME OF OUR MORE
AGRICULTURAL AREAS.
IF YOU GO INTO TOBACCO
COUNTRY, FOR INSTANCE,
PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE HIGH
SCHOOL STUDENTS AVAILABLE
TO BRING CROPS IN.
IT'S A BIG PART OF
THE ECONOMY THERE.

Steve says ANYTHING ELSE WE CAN
DO FOR YOU, JOHN?

John says YES.
WITH RESPECT TO THE
CORRESPONDENCE EDUCATION,
THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE THE MOST
EFFICIENT IN THE PARTICULAR
CASE OF MY SON, HERE.
AND HE'S GOING TO
HAVE THIS SUMMER.
HE'S 14 YEARS OLD.
I DON'T SEE THE POINT OF HIM
WORKING FOR A MINIMUM WAGE
WHERE PERHAPS HE COULD
GRADUATE A YEAR EARLY
AND EARN 50,000 DOLLARS TO PAY
BACK STUDENT LOANS.
I DON'T MIND INVESTING,
OR MY SON INVESTING IN HIS
EDUCATION, BUT I WANT HIM TO
HAVE THE BEST OPPORTUNITY TO
BE ABLE TO PAY THAT BACK
AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

Steve says WE THANK YOU FOR THE CALL.

John Snobelen says THANK YOU.

Steve says OKAY, TAKE CARE.
LET'S GO TO AJAX,
JUST EAST OF HERE.
ERIC, YOU'RE UP
WITH JOHN SNOBELEN.
GO AHEAD.

Eric says GOOD EVENING.

Steve replies HI.

Eric says I'D LIKE TO ASK FOR A
CLARIFICATION OF SOMETHING
THAT THE MINISTER
SAID EARLIER.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Eric, Ajax.”

Eric continues HE SAID IN THE DAYS OF BETTE
STEPHENSON, WE HAD TO PREPARE
OUR CHILDREN FOR THE FUTURE,
BUT NOW WE'VE GOT TO PREPARE
THE FUTURE FOR OUR CHILDREN.
WHAT ON EARTH DOES THAT MEAN?

John Snobelen says WELL, I THINK WE, IF YOU
LOOK AT WHAT WE HAD DURING
Dr. STEPHENSON'S TIME AS A
MINISTER, AND I THINK THEY HAD
VERY SERIOUS CHALLENGES IN
THOSE DAYS, AS WELL, BUT
REALLY, THE EDUCATORS DURING
THAT PERIOD OF TIME, WERE
WORRIED ABOUT JUST THE
PEDAGOGICAL ISSUES.
AND NOW WE HAVE A SYSTEM
THAT IS EXPENSIVE
BY ANYBODY'S MEASURE.
WE, AS EDUCATORS, HAVE TO DO
OUR PART TO REDUCE THE BURDEN
ON OUR YOUNG PEOPLE
WHEN THEY GRADUATE.
THEY ARE GOING TO GRADUATE,
CURRENTLY, WITH A 100 BILLION DOLLARS
PLUS OF DEBT ON THEIR BACKS.
LET ME TELL YOU WHAT
THAT REPRESENTS
IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM.
THIS YEAR ONTARIO WILL PAY
MORE IN DEBT INTEREST THAN
IT WILL CONTRIBUTE TO OUR
SCHOOLS, TO OUR COMMUNITY
COLLEGES, AND TO OUR
UNIVERSITIES IN TOTAL.

Steve says WE'RE SPENDING 14
BILLION A YEAR ON THOSE.
WHAT ARE WE SPENDING
TO SERVICE THE DEBT?

John Snobelen says WELL, OUR SHARE OF THE 14
BILLION DOLLARS IN SCHOOLS, TOTAL,
TOTAL, MINISTRY SPENDING, THE
PROVINCIAL SHARE IS ABOUT
9 BILLION DOLLARS.
AND THAT'S A LITTLE BIT LESS
THAN WHAT OUR DEBT INTEREST IS
THIS YEAR.
AND THAT DEBT INTEREST
GROWS EVERY YEAR.
I THINK PEOPLE ARE VERY
FAMILIAR WITH DEBT INTEREST
IN THEIR OWN LIVES.
THAT IS PUTTING AT RISK,
AND THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS
PROBLEM, THAT PUTS AT RISK THE
FUTURE OF THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE.
I'VE SAID TIME AND AGAIN IT
MAKES NO SENSE TO GRADUATE OUR
YOUNG PEOPLE FROM EXCELLENT
INSTITUTIONS AND EXCELLENT
PROGRAMS IF THEY ARE GOING TO
FIND THEIR JOBS, START THEIR
CAREERS AND RAISE THEIR
FAMILIES IN NEW BRUNSWICK,
OR MANITOBA, OR
COLORADO, OR CHINA.

Steve says GOTCHA.
JANE, WHERE YOU
WANT TO GO NEXT?
HENRY FROM CHISTOM, IS IT?
HENRY, WHERE ARE
YOU CALLING FROM?

Henry says HI, FROM CHISHOLM, ONTARIO.

Steve says WHERE'S THAT?

Henry says A LITTLE TOWN JUST OUTSIDE
POWASSAN, ONTARIO,
ABOUT 30 MILES FROM NORTH BAY.

Steve says TERRIFIC.
GLAD TO HAVE YOU
WITH US TONIGHT.
JOHN SNOBELEN IS HERE FOR YOU.
GO AHEAD.

Henry says OKAY, THANKS VERY MUCH.

Steve says YOU'RE ON THE AIR.
GO AHEAD.

Henry says HELLO, Mr. SNOBELEN.

John Snobelen says HELLO.
HOW ARE YOU TONIGHT?

Henry says NOT BAD.
YOURSELF?

John smiles and says I'M DOING WELL.
FOR THIS TIME OF THE
EVENING, I'M DOING OKAY.

Henry says YOU'RE ON THE AXE.

John Snobelen says THERE YOU ARE.

Henry says I HAD ONE STATEMENT
I'D LIKE TO MAKE.
THEY ARE CUTTING THE SPECIAL
ED OUT OF OUR SCHOOL HERE.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Henry.”

Henry continues AND I THINK THAT'S
A DRASTIC MEASURE.
THERE IS LOTS OF KIDS, AND
JUST THIS LITTLE SCHOOL IN
CHISHOLM, THERE IS ONLY 80
KIDS, AND THERE IS AT LEAST
15 STUDENTS THAT NEED IT.
AND IT'LL BE CUT OUT.
AND THESE CHILDREN WILL
BE LEFT IN A CLASS
AND THEY WILL JUST FALL
FURTHER BEHIND EVERY YEAR.
AND I JUST WANT TO KNOW
WHY, WHEN WE HAVE THE BOARD
MEMBERS, SOME OF THEM, THE
HEAD ONES LIKE CERTAIN GUYS
LIKE MASON IN OUR AREA,
NOTHING PERSONAL ABOUT MASON,
BUT WHY IS HE GETTING
100,000 A YEAR, AND WE HAVE
A PREMIER THAT IS ONLY MAKING
100,000 A YEAR OF ONTARIO
TRYING TO RUN THIS WHOLE
PROVINCE, AND HIS PROBLEMS,
AND THIS GUY IS MAKING
100,000 DOLLARS A YEAR.
IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME.
WHY ISN'T THE BOARD
TAKING THESE CUTS?
LIKE THE EARLIER WOMAN
FROM SOMEWHERE
IN SOME OTHER AREA SAID.
THE TEACHERS ARE GETTING HIT,
THE KIDS ARE GETTING HIT, THE
PARENTS ARE GETTING HIT WITH
THE PROBLEMS, AND THE BOARD OF
EDUCATION, DON'T SEE
ANY CUTS THERE AT ALL.

Steve says HENRY, I TAKE YOUR POINT.
JUST A POINT OF
CLARIFICATION,
THE PREMIER IS NOW
GOING TO MAKE 131,000.
JUST SO YOU KNOW.
OKAY, Mr. SNOBELEN.

John Snobelen says AND I WON'T COMMENT ON WHAT
THE PREMIER GETS PAID.

Steve and John Snobelen laugh.

Steve says GO FOR IT.

John Snobelen says IT CERTAINLY IS NOT
IMPORTANT TO THE PREMIER.
I THINK IT'S NOT IMPORTANT TO
A LOT OF PEOPLE SENIOR IN THE
EDUCATION SYSTEM.
ONE OF THE THINGS WE FORGET,
I THINK, IS A LOT OF THE
TRUSTEES ACROSS ONTARIO, AND I
DON'T KNOW WHAT THE SITUATION
IS WHERE THE CALLER IS FROM,
BUT A LOT OF THE TRUSTEES
ACROSS THE PROVINCE WORK FOR
A VERY MINIMAL AMOUNT OF…

Steve says SOUNDS LIKE HE'S TALKING ABOUT
THE DIRECTOR OF THE BOARD,
THOUGH.
IS THAT RIGHT, HENRY?
HENRY, YOU STILL THERE?

Henry says YES, I AM.

Steve says ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE
DIRECTOR OF YOUR BOARD WHO IS
MAKING A HUNDRED THOUSAND?

Henry says YES, I AM.

John Snobelen says DIRECTORS, THAT SOUNDS LIKE
THE NORMAL SALARY RANGE.
BUT WE HAVE TO FIND A BETTER
WAY, A MORE AFFORDABLE WAY TO
ADMINISTER EDUCATION
IN THE PROVINCE.
AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING
THAT'S BEEN VERY CLEAR FROM
THE STUDIES THAT
HAVE BEEN DONE.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SPECIAL
ED PROGRAMS, AND I'M NOT SURE
WHICH PROGRAMS THE CALLER WAS
TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE THERE
ARE SUCH A VARIETY.
THE WAY WE FUND SPECIAL
EDUCATION PROGRAMS IN THE
PROVINCE RIGHT
NOW DOESN'T WORK.
THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS
THAT ARE WRONG WITH
OUR FUNDING MECHANISMS.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE 37 OR 38
PAGES IT TAKES TO WORK OUT THE
GENERAL LEGISLATIVE GRANTS,
YOU REALIZE THAT THIS IS A
VERY CONVOLUTED SYSTEM.

Steve says WHY DON'T YOU DO
SOMETHING ABOUT THIS?

John Snobelen says WELL, WE ARE LOOKING
AT THAT RIGHT NOW.
WE ARE WAITING FOR A PIECE OF
WORK THAT'S BEING DONE BY A
VARIETY OF PEOPLE FROM
THE EDUCATION COMMUNITY,
THE WORKING GROUP ON
EDUCATION FINANCE REFORM.
IT'LL BE IN VERY SOON.
AND WE HAVE HAD THE GOLDEN
COMMISSION REPORT, WE HAVE HAD
THE SWEENEY COMMISSION REPORT,
WE'RE NOW LOOKING FOR THIS
REPORT THAT WAS INITIATED
BY THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT.
AND WHEN THAT'S IN, WE'RE GOING
TO HAVE A LOOK AT THE WHOLE
SYSTEM, HOW WE FUND IT, HOW WE
CAN FUND IT SO WE HAVE MORE
EQUITY FOR OUR STUDENTS.
WE, RIGHT NOW, HAVE A
WIDE, WIDE RANGE IN OUR
PER STUDENT FUNDING.

Steve says WE TOLD PEOPLE LAST
NIGHT ON THE PROGRAM
YOU'D BE ON TONIGHT.
MY PHONE WAS RINGING OFF THE
HOOK TODAY WITH PEOPLE SAYING
THAT I MUST ASK YOU, YOU KNOW,
WHEN IS THE CRAZINESS IN
TERMS OF FUNDING ONTARIO'S
EDUCATION SYSTEM GOING TO END?
BECAUSE IT'S SO PATCHWORK,
AND IT'S SO RIDICULOUS.
IF YOU'RE A STUDENT IN THIS
BOARD, YOU GET THIS MUCH.
IF YOU'RE A STUDENT IN THAT
BOARD, YOU GET THAT MUCH.
SEPARATE, PUBLIC,
FRENCH, ENGLISH.
WHEN IT IS GOING TO END?

John Snobelen says YES, AND I THINK Mr. SWEENEY
QUITE, IN HIS COMMISSION, I
WANT TO POINT OUT, THERE WAS
MORE THAN JUST Mr. SWEENEY,
POINTED OUT QUITE WELL, IN THE
FIRST RECOMMENDATION IN THEIR
REPORT WAS THAT THE FUNDING
HAS TO BE FIXED FIRST.

Steve says WILL YOU DO IT IN YOUR TERM?
ARE YOU CONVINCED YOUR
GOVERNMENT WILL DO IT
IN THIS TERM?

John Snobelen says I'M CONVINCED THAT WE WILL.
I THINK WE'RE COMMITTED
TO DOING THAT.
I THINK IT'S A VERY
FUNDAMENTAL PIECE.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT WE
WANT TO DO IN EDUCATION,
IN TERMS OF QUALITY, IN TERMS
OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY, AND
THE KINDS OF CHANGES THAT
ARE POSSIBLE NOW, IT'S NOT
POSSIBLE UNTIL WE CAN
FIX OUR FUNDING SYSTEM.

Steve says OKAY.
HUGH, WHERE'S CALABOGIE?

Hugh says IT'S NEAR RENFREW.

Steve says NEAR RENFREW, OKAY.
EASTERN ONTARIO, GOOD
TO HAVE YOU WITH US.
YOU'RE ON WITH JOHN
SNOBELEN, GO AHEAD.

Hugh says GOOD EVENING, Mr. MINISTER.
A COUPLE OF PEOPLE ALREADY
TONIGHT HAVE RAISED THE TOPIC,
BUT IN THE PERIOD OF TIME
LEADING UP TO WHERE WE ARE
NOW, THERE HASN'T BEEN MUCH
MENTIONED ABOUT DELAYERING.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Hugh, Calabogie.”

Hugh continues ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
IS OBVIOUS, WE'VE GOT TO
REDUCE OUR COSTS.
BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SAY WE
SHOULD TRY TO REDUCE OUR COSTS
TO IMPACT AT THE
MINIMUM POSSIBLE LEVEL,
AT THE COALFACE.

Steve says WHAT IS DELAYERING, HUGH?

Hugh says DELAYERING MEANS REMOVING
LAYERS OF ADMINISTRATION
WITHIN A PARTICULAR
ORGANIZATION OR SERVICE.
AND BACK IN THE EARLY
DAYS OF RECESSION, BUSINESS
GRABBED ONTO THIS RIGHT ACROSS
THE COUNTRY AND ELIMINATED
CERTAIN LAYERS OF MANAGEMENT.

Steve says AND IS THIS SOMETHING
THIS MINISTER CAN DO?

Hugh says I THINK IT'S SOMETHING
THIS MINISTER CAN ONLY DO.
BECAUSE IT CANNOT BE
DONE FROM THE BOTTOM UP.
IT MUST BE DONE FROM THE TOP
DOWN, AS BUSINESS WILL SAY,
AS INDEED OUR FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT WILL SAY.

Steve says SO WHAT DO YOU
WANT TO SEE HIM DO?

Hugh says I WOULD LIKE TO SUGGEST WE
MIGHT WANT TO TAKE A VERY,
VERY CAREFUL LOOK AT THE
NUMBER OF SCHOOL BOARDS THAT
EXIST WITHIN THIS PROVINCE.
TAKE A LOOK AT PERHAPS
OTHER EXAMPLES.
I UNDERSTAND NEW BRUNSWICK
HAS VERY RECENTLY MADE SOME
DETERMINED CUTS IN THIS AREA.

Steve says I THINK THEY'VE ELIMINATED
THEM, HAVEN'T THEY?
OR COME CLOSE.

Hugh says WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO
SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

Steve says OKAY, LET'S HEAR
FROM THE MINISTER.

John Snobelen says IT'S A GREAT CALL.
GREAT QUESTION.
IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'VE
ALLUDED TO, BUT I GUESS NOT
SPENT VERY MUCH TIME
ON IN THIS SHOW.
WE HAVE TO, I BELIEVE, HAVE A
CHANGE IN OUR FUNDING MODELS
TO HAVE GREATER EQUITY
IN STUDENT EDUCATION.
BUT THAT SAID, ONCE WE HAVE
THE FUNDING MODEL IN PLACE,
WE THEN HAVE TO LOOK AT
GOVERNANCE AND SAY WHAT IS THE
BEST GOVERNANCE STRUCTURE FOR
OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM SO WE HAVE,
AND THIS IS MY VIEW, A STRONG
SOURCE OF CURRICULUM AND
MATERIALS FROM THE PROVINCE,
AND A HIGH DEGREE OF AUTONOMY
IN THE CLASSROOM ON
DELIVERY OF THAT.

Steve says THERE IS 160 SCHOOL
BOARDS, IS THAT RIGHT?

John Snobelen says AND JUST LET ME
FINISH THAT MODEL.
WITH PARENTAL, REALLY
PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT
AT THE DELIVERY LEVEL.
AND I THINK THOSE ARE THE
KEY INGREDIENTS OF WHATEVER
STRUCTURE WE
FINALLY ARRIVE AT.
Mr. SWEENEY SUGGESTED REDUCING
OUR BOARDS BY ABOUT HALF.
WE HAVE A LITTLE OVER 160 BOARDS
IN THE PROVINCE RIGHT NOW.
THE PROBLEM WITH
COMPARING US WITH OTHER
JURISDICTIONS IS THIS.
AND I DON'T WANT TO BE
SIMPLISTIC ABOUT THE APPROACH.
NEW ZEALAND HAS DONE
THIS VERY RECENTLY.
THEY'VE GONE TO A
NO BOARDS APPROACH.
IT HASN'T BEEN WITHOUT SOME
DIFFICULTIES, AND THEY'VE HAD
PROBLEMS IN GETTING THE
KIND OF CHANGE IN STUDENT
ACHIEVEMENT THEY DID THAT FOR.
ULTIMATELY, YOU WANT TO HAVE
BETTER STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT
WHEN YOU CHANGE A SYSTEM.
WE'VE JUST SEEN NEW
BRUNSWICK GO THROUGH THIS.
BUT, REMEMBER, NEW BRUNSWICK
IS TWO BOARDS IN TOTAL.
THEY'VE GONE TO TWO BOARDS
ACROSS THE PROVINCE.
THEIR TWO BOARDS IN TOTAL
WON'T HAVE VERY MANY MORE
STUDENTS THAN THE TWO BOARDS
THAT REPRESENT MY RIDING,
PEEL AND DUFFERIN-PEEL.
SO WE REALLY HAVE TO HAVE
A LOOK AT OUR STRUCTURE
HERE IN ONTARIO.

Steve says TERRY, IN LONDON, YOUR
TURN WITH THE MINISTER
OF EDUCATION.
GO AHEAD, PLEASE.

Terry says EVENING, Mr. SNOBELEN.
NICE TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY
TO SPEAK WITH YOU.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Terry, London.”

Terry continues I WOULD LIKE TO
ASK YOU A QUESTION.
I'VE JUST BEEN RECENTLY LAID
OFF AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
WESTERN ONTARIO AS A
PART-TIME INSTRUCTOR.
AND MY COURSE HAS BEEN
AMALGAMATED INTO ANOTHER
SECTION OF INTRODUCTORY
PSYCHOLOGY COURSE.
AND WHAT I'M WONDERING IS, THE
CHANGES IN CLASS SIZE THAT
THIS OCCASIONS FOR THE
INSTRUCTOR THAT WILL BE TAKING
OVER STUDENTS I PREVIOUSLY
TAUGHT, WILL BE THEY WILL HAVE
TO HAVE MULTIPLE CHOICE
TESTING AS THE ONLY MEANS OF
STUDENT ASSESSMENT DUE TO
THE VOLUME OF STUDENTS
THAT THEY'RE FACED WITH.
WHEREAS PRIOR TO THIS, OUR
STUDENTS WERE ABLE TO DO
WRITTEN ASSIGNMENTS AND MAKE
SEMINAR PRESENTATIONS IN FRONT
OF THE REST OF
THEIR CLASSMATES.
AND I'M WONDERING WHETHER YOU
FEEL THIS LOSS OF THE ABILITY
TO COMMUNICATE THE KNOWLEDGE
YOU'VE LEARNED IS BENEFICIAL
TO A STUDENT'S EDUCATION?

John Snobelen says WELL, I DON'T WANT TO COMMENT,
AND I DON'T WANT TO ALSO
AVOID YOUR QUESTION, IT'S
NOT AN EFFORT OF DOING THAT,
BUT I TRY TO STAY AWAY FROM
COMMENTING DIRECTLY ON A
PROGRAM OR PROGRAM CHANGE
THAT A UNIVERSITY OR COLLEGE
HAS PUT IN PLACE
IN THE PROVINCE.
AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS
THERE IS OBVIOUSLY THERE IS
AUTONOMY BY THE UNIVERSITIES
AND BY THE COMMUNITY COLLEGES,
AND IT PROBABLY WOULDN'T
BE APPROPRIATE FOR ME
TO TALK ABOUT THAT
PARTICULAR PROGRAM.
I CAN TELL YOU THIS.
THAT WE ARE, AND I THINK THE
STUDENTS ARE, FIRST THING
YOU'LL HEAR FROM STUDENTS
OFTEN IS ABOUT TUITIONS.
BUT THE SECOND THING YOU'LL
HEAR FROM THEM ABOUT IS THE
QUALITY OF THE PROGRAMS.
I BELIEVE, AND I THINK OUR
CALLER WOULD PROBABLY VERIFY
WE'RE SERVED IN THE PROVINCE
BY THE BEST, IF NOT SOME OF
THE BEST COMMUNITY COLLEGES AND
UNIVERSITIES IN THE WORLD.
THE QUESTION IS HOW DO WE KEEP
THEM AT A GLOBAL STANDARD?
OTHER UNIVERSITIES, OTHER POST
SECONDARY EDUCATION SYSTEMS
ARE MAKING THE REDUCTIONS
THAT ONTARIO IS MAKING.
MAKING THEM IN DIFFERENT WAYS.
WE'VE HAD A LOOK AT THAT.
BUT THERE ARE SOME BIG,
BIG CHANGES COMING FOR OUR
UNIVERSITIES, IN PARTICULAR,
ACROSS THE GLOBE.
AROUND THE GLOBE, AS THEY USE
MORE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY,
THE VIRTUAL UNIVERSITY
IS NOT FAR OFF.
WE'RE DOING SOME OF THAT NOW.

Steve says BUT AS TERRY DESCRIBES THIS
SITUATION, IT DOESN'T SOUND,
BASED ON HIS CHARACTERIZATION
OF IT LIKE IT'S AN IMPROVEMENT.
DOESN'T SOUND LIKE IT.

John Snobelen says CERTAINLY DOESN'T
SOUND LIKE IT.
BUT I THINK YOU HAVE TO ALSO
UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE NOW IN
A CHANGE IN TERMS OF OUR
UNIVERSITIES IN HOW THEY
SERVICE UNDERGRADUATE
AND GRADUATE STUDENTS.
AND MUCH OF THAT MAY BE DONE IN
CYBER SPACE IN THE NEAR FUTURE.
SO A LOT OF THIS IS CHANGING.

Steve says ALEXANDRA, JUST NORTH
OF HERE IN NEWMARKET.
LET'S HEAR FROM YOU TONIGHT.
GO AHEAD.

Alexandra says HI, Mr. SNOBELEN.
ACTUALLY, I HAVE A TWO
PART QUESTION FOR YOU.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Alexandra, Newmarket.”

Alexandra continues THE FIRST PART IS I AM A
TEACHER, AND MY CONCERN LIES
AROUND JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN.
IF YOU LOOK AT DEVELOPED
COUNTRIES SUCH AS JAPAN AND
CHINA, THEY ENCOURAGE EARLY
EDUCATION, AND CHILDREN ARE
SENT TO SCHOOL AT A
RELATIVELY YOUNG AGE.
IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE
EDUCATION SYSTEM, EDUCATION
OR THE MAJORITY OF LEARNING
TAKES PLACE BETWEEN BIRTH
AND FIVE YEARS OF AGE.
I DON'T SEE WHY YOU WOULD GIVE
THE OPTION TO THE BOARD TO
ALLOW JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN.
I DO, HOWEVER, AGREE WITH YOU
FOR DECIDING THAT THE CUTS
SHOULD BE MADE TO O.A.C., EVEN
THOUGH I'M JEOPARDIZING MY
CHANCES OF EVER GETTING A
JOB IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM.
WHERE DO YOU SEE
THIS FITTING IN?

John Snobelen says JUST THE O.A.C., OBVIOUSLY, THAT
WAS BOTH A COMMITMENT WE MADE
TO THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO
DURING THE ELECTION, AND ALSO,
WE HAVE THE ROYAL
COMMISSION SUPPORTED THAT.
AS FAR AS JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN
IS CONCERNED, IF YOU LOOK
AROUND THE WORLD, YOU'LL
FIND THERE ARE VERY, VERY
DIFFERENT EDUCATION SYSTEMS
IN THE DEVELOPED PART
OF THE WORLD.
IF YOU LOOK IN EUROPE, YOU'LL
FIND SOME COUNTRIES THAT DO
NOT START FORMAL SCHOOLING
UNTIL AGE SEVEN.
IN ONTARIO, WE HAVE STARTED
AT AGE FIVE, TRADITIONALLY.
AND THAT, BY THE WAY, PLACES
US BY FAR IN THE TOP 20 OR SO
PERCENT OF THE DEVELOPED
COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.
THAT'S A VERY EARLY AGE FOR
FORMAL SCHOOL INSTRUCTION
TO START.
THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE
PROGRAMS, WITH AN EDUCATIONAL
COMPONENT, NOT TIED TO
THEIR SCHOOL SYSTEM,
FOR VERY YOUNG CHILDREN.
AND THERE ARE PROGRAMS, I
THINK THE MOST COMMONLY QUOTED
STUDIES IN TERMS OF THE SOCIAL
BENEFIT OF EARLY CHILDHOOD
EDUCATION ARE PROGRAMS THAT
ARE DONE, LIKE HEAD START
PROGRAMS, FROM MAJOR
METROPOLITAN AREAS IN THE
UNITED STATES, WHERE THEY TAKE
PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY MUCH AT
RISK, AND THEY PUT THEM
INTO A HEAD START PROGRAM,
AND IT DOES HAVE A PROFOUND
EFFECT ON THEIR LIFE.
NO ONE'S QUESTIONING THAT.
WHAT WE ARE QUESTIONING IS,
AND WHAT WE ARE STUDYING NOW,
IS WHETHER, IN FACT, THE RIGHT
PLACE TO DO EARLY CHILDHOOD
EDUCATION IS IN THE SCHOOL
SETTING, WHETHER THERE IS NOT
PERHAPS A BETTER CIRCUMSTANCE
FOR THAT OR BETTER MODEL FOR IT.
AND WHETHER OUR COMMUNITY AND
SOCIAL SERVICES SHOULD BE
INVOLVED, THE EDUCATION
MINISTRY SHOULD BE INVOLVED.
WHAT'S THE RIGHT WAY?
AND HOW CAN WE FOCUS THIS ON
THE KIDS WHO ARE MOST AT RISK?
THE VERY YOUNG CHILDREN
WHO ARE MOST AT RISK?

Steve says HOW LONG DO YOU THINK IT WILL
TAKE YOU TO FIGURE ALL THAT OUT?

John Snobelen says I'D LIKE TO BE ABLE TO COME
FORWARD WITH SOMETHING
THIS FALL.
I THINK IT'S GOING TO TAKE US
THAT LONG IN ORDER TO HAVE A
LOOK AT WHAT THE OPTIONS ARE.
I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE
HAVE THE RIGHT PROGRAM.
IT'S SUSTAINABLE.
AND IT DIRECTS OUR ATTENTION
AT THE MOST AT RISK KIDS.

Steve says OKAY.
WE'RE DOWN TO OUR LAST FEW
MINUTES, SO WE ARE GOING TO
TRY TO SQUEEZE A
FEW MORE CALLS IN.
DORETTA IN TORONTO.
IT'S YOUR TURN
WITH JOHN SNOBELEN.
GO AHEAD.

Doretta says GOOD EVENING, GENTLEMEN.
SPEAKING OF INTELLIGENT
INVESTMENTS, AND IDENTIFYING
AT RISK CHILDREN, WHICH I
BELIEVE BOTH OF YOU HAVE
TOUCHED ON THIS EVENING.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Doretta, Toronto.”

Doretta continues I THINK OUR SYSTEM COULD USE
SOME PREVENTATIVE MEDICINE IN
OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM IN ORDER
TO SAVE A CONSIDERABLE
AMOUNT OF MONEY.
I KNOW I'M A MEMBER OF THE
ORGANIZATION FOR QUALITY
EDUCATION, AND THE COALITION
FOR EDUCATION REFORM.
AND I'M WONDERING IF THE
MINISTER IS AWARE ENORMOUS
SAVINGS COULD BE MADE IN
THE SYSTEM BY IMPLEMENTING
EFFECTIVE READING PROGRAMS
FOR BEGINNING READERS,
THAT PROVIDE FOR EARLY
PHONEME, GRAPHEME AWARENESS,
WHICH IS PHONICS.
NONE OF THESE PROGRAMS, AS
YET, ARE ON CIRCULAR 14.
NONE OF THEM ARE ALLOWED
TO BE USED IN OUR
ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS.
WHEN, IF EVER, WILL THESE
THINGS GO INTO PLACE?
THERE IS SO MUCH RESEARCH
TO SHOW THESE ARE FAR MORE
EFFECTIVE IN EDUCATED
OUR YOUNG CHILDREN.

Steve says TAKE 10 SECONDS AND TELL PEOPLE
WHAT CIRCULAR 14 IS FIRST.

John Snobelen says WELL, CIRCULAR 14 IS A LIST
OF MATERIALS THAT IS APPROVED
FOR USE IN SCHOOLS
BY THE PROVINCE.
THE PROVINCE DOESN'T DIRECT
CURRENTLY ALL THE CURRICULUM,
BUT IT HAS AN
APPROVED LIST.
AND WHAT WE ARE DOING RIGHT
NOW, AND I'M AWARE OF THE
ORGANIZATIONS THE CALLER
MENTIONED AT THE TOP OF THE
CALL BECAUSE THESE
ORGANIZATIONS ARE PARENTS WHO
ARE VERY CONCERNED
ABOUT EDUCATION.

Steve says BEEN AROUND FOR
MANY YEARS ALREADY.

John Snobelen says ABSOLUTELY.
AND THEY WANT TO DO
A COUPLE OF THINGS.
IF I CAN PUT THEIR
PROGRAM INTO A FEW WORDS.
THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE
CHILDREN LEARN USEFUL
KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS IN
SCHOOL, USEFUL HABITS
AND BEHAVIOURS.
AND THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE
THEY CAN ASSESS HOW THEIR
CHILD IS DOING IN
A VERY REAL WAY.
THEY THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT
FOR THE STUDENT, THEY THINK
THAT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE
PARENT, AND THEY THINK THAT'S
IMPORTANT FOR THE TEACHER.
SO THEY'VE REALLY LOOKED
AT A COUPLE OF AREAS.
ONE IS A PROGRAM OF TESTING
THAT ALLOWS EVERYONE TO KNOW
HOW A STUDENT IS DOING.
AND THE KIND OF CURRICULUM
THAT WOULD HAVE THE STUDENTS
LEARN AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.
NOW, WE HAVE IN FRONT OF OUR
CAUCUS COMMITTEE, WE ARE GOING
TO BE TAKING SOME OF THE
ISSUES ABOUT CURRICULUM
DEVELOPMENT IN ELEMENTARY
SCHOOL PANEL, AND I DO AGREE
WITH BOTH THE PREVIOUS CALLER
AND THIS CALLER, THAT'S
CRITICAL, CRITICAL, VERY
CRITICAL FOR CHILDHOOD
EDUCATION, THE FIRST FIVE
YEARS OF PRIMARY SCHOOL.
SO WE'LL BE LOOKING AT
WHAT KIND OF CURRICULUM
NEEDS TO BE DONE.
HOW THE PROVINCE CAN BE
INVOLVED AND ENHANCE THE
DEVELOPMENT OF THAT.
I BELIEVE WE ARE GOING TO
HAVE TO HAVE AN OVERLAY OF
INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY IN OUR
SCHOOLS IF WE ARE GOING TO
TAKE THE NEXT STEP INTO THE
NEXT CENTURY AND REALLY GIVE
OUR CHILDREN THE BEST
ADVANTAGE WE CAN.
THERE IS A WHOLE VARIETY OF
REASONS WHY CHILDREN ARE
INTRIGUED BY, AND CAN USE
INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY,
AND HOW IT SPEEDS
THEIR CURVE.
THE PLACE TO START
IS PRIMARY EDUCATION.

Steve says GOTCHA.
SIT TIGHT ONE SECOND.
ALAN, ROLL TAPE.
LET'S TELL THEM
WHAT'S UP TOMORROW.

Watch: John Snobelen Phone In