Transcript: Interview: Bob Rae | Oct 02, 1996

Steve sits with Bob Rae. Steve is in his thirties or early forties, slim and clean shaven, with short brown hair. He’s wearing a dark suit over a green shirt unbuttoned at the collar. Bob Rae is in his forties, slim and clean shaven, with a full head of graying blond hair and glasses. He’s wearing a dark suit, white shirt, and flower-pattern tie.

Steve says HOW ARE YOU?

Rae says EXTREMELY WELL.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Steve says YOU KNOW, YOU NEVER WOULD
HAVE ANSWERED THAT QUESTION
THAT WAY IF YOU WERE
STILL IN POLITICS TODAY.
YOU KNOW THAT, EH?
BECAUSE I HEAR YOU
ARE EXTREMELY WELL.

Rae chuckles and says I'M DOING FINE,
THANK YOU.

Steve says MAKING A NICE LIVING.

Rae says I HAVE A GOOD LIFE.
I DO SOME TEACHING.
I PRACTICE LAW.
I'VE JUST OBVIOUSLY
FINISHED THIS PROJECT
WHICH IS NOW UNDERWAY,
AND I'M A HAPPY MAN.

Steve says IF I MAY OFFER
AN OPINION HERE,
AND SINCE YOU DIDN'T
ASK, I'M GOING
TO GIVE IT TO
YOU ANYWAY.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
FRUSTRATED ME ABOUT YOUR BOOK
IS THAT I WAS HOPING TO HEAR
THE WHOLE STORY FROM YOU.
AND I DON'T THINK I
DID, ON A LOT OF THINGS.
AND LET ME GIVE YOU
SOME FOR INSTANCES.
YOU TELL A PRETTY INTERESTING
STORY IN THIS BOOK ABOUT
HOW DAVID PETERSON USED TO
COME UP TO YOU ON OCCASION,
SLAP YOU ON THE BACK, AND
SAY, BOB, YOU'RE A NICE GUY,
BUT YOU'LL NEVER BE
PREMIER; AND YOU NEVER,
AT ANY POINT IN THIS BOOK,
TELL ME ABOUT YOUR TRUE
RELATIONSHIP WITH
DAVID PETERSON.
WHICH I KNOW, YOU KNOW,
IS NOT A GOOD ONE.
WHY DIDN'T YOU?

Rae takes a sip from a glass of water, puts it down on the small coffee table between them and says I WOULDN'T SAY IT'S
NOT A GOOD ONE.
I'D SAY IT'S ONE WHERE WE
WERE RIVALS IN QUEEN'S PARK.
AND THAT RIVALRY, YOU
KNOW, WE BOTH STARTED OUT
AS LEADERS OF THE
OPPOSITION PARTIES.

A caption with the Studio Two logo reads Bob Rae, author “From Protest to Power”.

Rae continues AND THAT RIVALRY PUT A
DISTANCE BETWEEN US.
WE'VE KNOWN EACH OTHER
FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
AND WE CERTAINLY GOT ALONG
WELL ENOUGH THAT WE WERE ABLE
TO DEFEAT THE TORIES,
AND Mr. PETERSON
FORMED THE GOVERNMENT.
THERE'S NO PARTICULAR
HARD FEELINGS ON MY SIDE.

Stave says HE WOULDN'T GO FIGHT FOR
THE OLYMPICS FOR YOU.
YOU ASKED HIM TO.
THERE WAS A NUMBER OF
OPPORTUNITIES WHERE
HE COULD HAVE MADE A
TRANSITION EASIER FOR YOU.
HE DIDN'T.

Rae says YES, THAT'S
PROBABLY TRUE.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND-

Steve says YOU DON'T TAKE A SHOT AT
HIM IN THE BOOK FOR IT.
I THOUGHT YOU MIGHT.

Rae chuckles and says I DON'T THINK YOU
GO THROUGH LIFE,
AT LEAST I HAVEN'T
GONE THROUGH LIFE
TAKING A WHOLE
LOT OF SHOTS.
I TAKE SOME.
I TOOK SOME IN THIS BOOK WHERE
I FELT THE AIR NEEDED
TO BE CLEARED, OR PEOPLE
NEEDED TO KNOW WHERE I WAS
ON AN ISSUE, OR WHAT I
FELT ABOUT SOMETHING.

Steve says CAN I GIVE YOU
ANOTHER ONE?
LET ME GIVE YOU
ANOTHER ONE.
SHELLEY MARTEL.
THE SHELLEY MARTEL
EPISODE WAS BIG
IN THE LIFE OF
YOUR GOVERNMENT.
MAYBE NOT THE SUBSTANCE
OF IT, BUT IT TURNED INTO
ONE OF THOSE THINGS.
AND YOU DON'T SHARE WITH US
MUCH OF YOUR DELIBERATIONS
OR YOUR CONTACTS WITH
HER AT THE TIME.
I WANTED TO KNOW THE REAL
STORY BEHIND THE SCENES
OF THE SHELLEY
MARTEL THING.
I DON'T THINK I KNOW THAT MUCH
MORE HAVING READ YOUR BOOK.

Rae says ONE OF THE THINGS
ABOUT WRITING A BOOK
IS YOU GET TO WRITE ABOUT
WHAT YOU WANT TO WRITE ABOUT.
YOU WANT TO WRITE
A BOOK, YOU-

Steve laughs and says I WANTED YOU TO WRITE
WHAT I WANTED TO KNOW.

Rae says YOU WRITE YOUR BOOK,
AND I'LL WRITE MINE.
THERE ARE 300 PAGES.
THERE'S A LOT OF STUFF
YOU END UP CUTTING OUT.
THE FIRST DRAFT WAS LONGER
THAN THE LAST DRAFT.
AND I WANTED TO FOCUS ON SOME
SUBJECTS AND SOME PROBLEMS.
I MEAN, MY OWN VIEW OF
SHELLEY'S SITUATION WAS IT WAS
COMPLETELY OVERBLOWN BY THE
MEDIA, AND BY THE OPPOSITION.
AND THAT IT WASN'T,
FRANKLY, FOR ME,
IT WASN'T SOMETHING I WAS
TOTALLY PREOCCUPIED BY
OR FELT WAS A HUGE
PREOCCUPATION.
MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE.
SOMEBODY MIGHT SAY IF
YOU'D PAID MORE ATTENTION
TO THAT AT THE BEGINNING
IT MIGHT NOT HAVE GONE ON
TO KIND OF - IT CERTAINLY LASTED
LONGER THAN I WANTED IT TO
FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT.

Steve says THE MEDIA LOVED YOU WHEN
YOU WERE THE BOY WONDER
IN OPPOSITION.
AND THEN WHEN YOU GOT
INTO POWER, I MEAN,
THE ANKLES WERE BREAKING
OF MEMBERS OF THE MEDIA
THAT JUMPED OFF THAT
BANDWAGON SO QUICKLY.
NOW, MIKE HARCOURT,
WHEN HE DID HIS BOOK,
WE TALKED ABOUT THIS
JUST BEFORE WE WENT ON,
REALLY GAVE IT TO THE MEDIA
FOR THE WAY THEY HAD
A KIND OF SHARK-LIKE
FEEDING FRENZY AT HIS HEAD.
YOU DIDN'T.
YOU DON'T GO
AFTER THE MEDIA.
I DON'T KNOW WHY
YOU DIDN'T.

Rae says I DON'T OWN A
TELEVISION STATION,
AND I DON'T OWN
A PRINTING PRESS.

Steve says I HEAR ONE TV STATION IS
FOR SALE IN THIS PROVINCE
IF YOU'RE INTERESTED.

Rae chuckles and says NOT SURE HOW MUCH
MONEY IS REQUIRED.
NO, BUT SERIOUSLY, I HAVE
VIEWS ABOUT THE MEDIA
WHICH I EXPRESS
IN THE BOOK.

Steve says GENTLY.
YOU EXPRESSED
THEM GENTLY.
LOOK HOW HARCOURT WENT
AFTER THE GUYS IN B.C.

Rae says BUT MIKE HAD HIS OWN
THINGS HE WANTED TO SAY,
HIS OWN THINGS
HE WANTED TO DO.
MAYBE THE SUBJECT
OF ANOTHER BOOK.
I'M NOT SURE, WHEN A
POLITICIAN SAYS THE MEDIA
ARE A SUBJECT TO A FEEDING
FRENZY, AND THEY WHIP THINGS UP,
THEN THEY GET WHIPPED
UP, WHICH IS TRUE,
WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENS.
YOU CAN SEE IT
PHYSICALLY HAPPENING.
YOU CAN WATCH
IT HAPPEN.
YOU CAN SEE HOW
THEY GO ON.
I'VE WATCHED A COUPLE OF NEWS
ITEMS THE LAST LITTLE WHILE.
CERTAINLY, THAT'S
HOW IT WORKS.
IT'S A CRUEL BUSINESS
WHEN YOU SEE IT HAPPEN.
WHEN YOU SEE ONE PERSON
BEING SINGLED OUT,
AND THEN SUDDENLY EVERYBODY
GOES AFTER THAT PERSON.
AND EVERYBODY RELENTLESSLY
FEEDS AND BUILDS ON EACH STORY.
AND THEN ONE QUOTE IS
TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT,
AND WHAM, THERE YOU ARE.
BUT THAT'S ALSO THE
SEAS IN WHICH WE SAIL.
ONE OF THE REASONS I WOULD
FIND IT A LITTLE DIFFICULT
IS I HAVE TO REMEMBER I
TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THAT
AS LEADER OF
THE OPPOSITION.
I PARTICIPATED IN THAT CULTURE
FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.
FOR ME TO STAND BACK AND SAY,
WELL, NOW I'VE BEEN PREMIER,
I CAN SAY IT'S ALL
BEEN TERRIBLY UNFAIR.
LIFE ISN'T FAIR.
AND NEITHER IS THE MEDIA,
SO YOU JUST GET USED TO IT.

Steve says BILL CLINTON, I KNOW IF
I'D ASKED YOU TWO YEARS AGO
IN 1994, WHEN EVERYBODY
SAID BILL CLINTON
WAS AN IRRELEVANT PRESIDENT,
AFTER THE REPUBLICANS TOOK OVER
THAT SWEEP OF CONGRESS, I
MEAN, EVEN YOU PROBABLY
WOULD HAVE SAID
HE'S DONE FOR.
AND HERE HE IS, HE'S
REPOSITIONED HIMSELF
AS A NEW DEMOCRAT.

As Steve gestures quotes, Rae says RIGHT.

Steve says YOU'RE BOTH NEW
DEMOCRATS.
YOU DIDN'T
KNOW THAT, EH?
HE'S A NEW DEMOCRAT, AND
HE'S GOING TO WIN AGAIN.
DO YOU EVER THINK, GOD,
WHAT DID HE FIGURE OUT
THAT I DIDN'T FIGURE OUT?

Rae says SURE.
'COURSE I DO.

Steve says WHAT ANSWERS DO
YOU COME UP WITH?

Rae says FIRST OF ALL, I THINK
THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS.
ONE, I THINK HIS
PARTY IS DIFFERENT.
IN TERMS OF HIS POLITICAL
BASE IS DIFFERENT.
AND HE'S HAD A
DIFFERENT INSTINCT
AS TO HOW TO
HANDLE THAT.
AND CERTAINLY MOVED INTO THE
CENTRE IN A BIG, BIG WAY.

Steve says BUT SO DID YOU.

Rae says YES, I TRIED TO.
AND I THINK WE DID FROM
MANY, MANY POINTS OF VIEW.
BUT MY OWN PARTY WAS NOT
AS PREPARED TO ACCEPT THAT
AS HIS PARTY WAS
PREPARED TO ACCEPT IT.
SO THAT'S ONE
DIFFERENCE.
THE OTHER DIFFERENCE
IS, I THINK,
HE'S A BETTER
POLITICIAN THAN I AM.
HE'S A BETTER POLITICIAN
THAN MOST PEOPLE.
HE'S GOT A MUCH
BETTER PERSONALITY.
I THINK HE'S GOT A CAPACITY
TO KIND OF TAKE HITS
AND THEN COME BACK.
I DON'T THINK IT'S ANY
SECRET THAT I KIND OF GREW
A LITTLE TIRED OF THE
COMBAT, IN THE SENSE
I BECAME LESS
ENAMOURED OF THE GAME.
I BECAME A LITTLE MORE
REMOVED FROM THE GAME
AT A LOT OF MOMENTS,
AT A LOT OF TIMES.
AND I SIMPLY WASN'T, I DIDN'T
RUN THE KIND OF CAMPAIGN,
AND DIDN'T LEAD UP TO
THE KIND OF CAMPAIGN
WITH THE WAY IN WHICH I
THINK I SHOULD HAVE.
WE RAN A KIND OF
MINIMALIST CAMPAIGN.
MINIMALIST IN THE SENSE SAYING
WE'RE NOT GOING TO MAKE
A WHOLE LOT OF PROMISES.
WE'RE SIMPLY GOING TO TELL
YOU THE OTHER GUYS ARE
FULL OF IT, THEY'RE NOT BEING
HONEST, WE'RE BEING HONEST.
AND WE WERE.
BUT IT'S NOT GOOD
ENOUGH TO DO THAT.

Steve says THAT'S WHAT BOB
DOLE IS DOING?

Rae says YES.
I DON'T THINK I'M
LIKE HIM, EITHER.
BUT I THINK, CLINTON'S
OFFERING A PROGRAM.
AND I THINK WE FAILED
TO OFFER PEOPLE
A CLEAR ENOUGH PROGRAM.
I THINK WE PAID A
HEAVY PRICE FOR IT.

Steve says I'D LIKE TO GENTLY PURSUE-
[laughing]

Rae chuckles and says DON'T BE SO GENTLE.
NO NEED TO BE GENTLE.

Steve smiles and says NOT A FEEDING
FRENZY KIND OF WAY,
TALK A BIT ABOUT
THE PRICE OF POWER.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WITH WHOM
YOU HAD LONGSTANDING -
AND FORGIVE ME, THIS IS GOING
TO GET A LITTLE PERSONAL.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WITH
WHOM YOU HAD LONGSTANDING
RELATIONSHIPS BEFORE
YOU BECAME PREMIER.

Rae says YES.

Steve says YOU DON'T SPEAK
TO THEM ANYMORE.
IT'S A PRETTY IMPRESSIVE
LIST OF PEOPLE WITH WHOM
YOU JUST AREN'T
FRIENDS ANYMORE.
LET'S TALK A FEW.
MEL SCHWARTZ IS
ON THAT LIST.
HERE'S THE GUY THAT
NOMINATED YOU TO BE LEADER.
YOU BROKE THE PROMISE
ON AUTO INSURANCE,
OR YOU CHANGED
YOUR MIND ON IT,
AND HE DOESN'T TALK
TO YOU ANYMORE.
THERE'S A FEW OTHERS.
YOU KNOW, STEPHEN LEWIS
IS NOT YOUR BIGGEST PAL
ANYMORE EITHER.

Rae says WELL, I MEAN, NO.
I DON'T THINK THAT'S
ENTIRELY TRUE.
I THINK, YES, THERE ARE
SOME PEOPLE WITH WHOM
I AM CERTAINLY LESS CLOSE,
AND WHO ARE LESS CLOSE TO ME.
CERTAINLY, MEL ISN'T GOING
TO CALL ME UP AND SAY,
HOW ARE YOU DOING TODAY?
AND THAT IS, I THINK, A
FUNCTION OF POLITICS,
AND A DECISION OF HIS, IN A
SENSE, MORE THAN OF MINE.
HE'S THE ONE THAT
REALLY WENT -
I HAVEN'T WRITTEN ANYBODY
OFF OUT OF MY BOOK AND SAID
I'M NOT GOING TO
TALK TO YOU ANYMORE.

Steve says I'M NOT SURE THAT
THAT'S TRUE.

Rae says OH, I THINK IT
IS TRUE.

Steve says LENNY WISE.
YOUR BEST PAL
AT ONE TIME.
I'M TOLD YOU DON'T
TALK TO HIM ANYMORE.

Rae says WELL, THAT'S
BECAUSE OF A PROBLEM
WITH RESPECT TO
STORIES BEING MADE UP.

Steve says MY POINT IS, THERE'S A PRICE
TO BE PAID FOR BEING PREMIER.
AND ONE OF THEM IS YOU LOSE A
LOT OF FRIENDS ALONG THE WAY.

Rae says I DON'T THINK IT'S A
FUNCTION OF BEING PREMIER.
I THINK THAT'S WHAT
HAPPENS AS YOU GO
THROUGH CHANGES IN LIFE.
I THINK IF YOU WERE TO TALK TO
ANYBODY IN YOUR 40s AND 50s
AND SAY, DO YOU HAVE EVERY
SINGLE ONE OF THE PEOPLE
YOU WERE FRIENDLY WITH
WHEN YOU WERE 25 OR 30,
ARE YOU FRIENDLY
WITH THEM TODAY, NO.
YOU DEVELOP NEW
FRIENDSHIPS ALONG THE WAY.
I DON'T THINK THAT'S SOMETHING
THAT THAT'S UNUSUAL.

Steve says OKAY.
THE STORY AT THE BEACH.
I LOVE THIS STORY IN
THE BOOK, ACTUALLY.
THE KID WHO IS DROWNING
AND NEEDS TO BE SAVED
BY THE LIFE GUARD.
AND GO AHEAD, KEEP TELLING THE
STORY BECAUSE IT'S ACTUALLY
EMBLEMATIC OF A PROBLEM
YOU HAD WITH LABOUR MOVEMENT.

Rae nods and says THE WOMAN'S BABY IS
WASHED OUT TO SEA,
AND SHE GOES DOWN ON
HER KNEES AND PRAYS TO GOD
AND SAYS, PLEASE, PLEASE,
I'LL DO ANYTHING,
JUST BRING MY BABY BACK.
AND THE BABY COMES
BACK IN THE NEXT WAVE.
AND THE WAVE CLEARS AWAY,
AND THE KID'S ON THE BEACH.
AND SHE PICKS HIM UP.
AND SHE LOOKS UP TO HEAVEN,
AND SHE SAYS, HE HAD A HAT.
[laughing]

Steve chuckles and says AND OF COURSE, THE PEOPLE
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE
ARE BUZZ HARGROVE AND BOB WHITE,
AND THE OTHER LABOUR LEADERS
WHO, DESPITE THE FACT YOU GAVE
THEM ANTISTRIKE BREAKING
LEGISLATION, AND DID LOTS OF
CAPITAL PROJECTS THAT HIRED
THEIR PEOPLE, YOU KNOW,
HE HAD A HAT, RIGHT?
THEY JUST DIDN'T SEEM
TO CARE ABOUT THAT,
AND THEY SEEMED TO CARE
MORE ABOUT OTHER THINGS
WHERE THEY
DIFFERED WITH YOU.
ARE YOU STILL
MAD AT THEM?

Rae shakes his head and says NO, NOT MAD.
NO, I'M NOT MAD.
I'M NOT THE
LEAST BIT MAD.
I'M MORE, I THINK, MORE
SADDENED BY WHAT I LEARNED,
AND WHAT WE SAW
IN OFFICE.
AND I THINK IT'S A
REAL ISSUE POLITICALLY.
IT'S NOT A
PERSONAL ISSUE.
IT'S A REAL
POLITICAL QUESTION,
AS TO CAN THE
LABOUR MOVEMENT,
AND A WHOLE LOT
OF OTHER PEOPLE.
HOUSING GROUPS.
DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN,
THE NON-PROFIT HOUSING
COALITION PUTTING OUT
PRESS RELEASES SAYING,
WE'LL GIVE THE NDP A D+
OR C-, WE'LL GIVE THE
LIBERALS A D, WE'LL
GIVE THE TORIES AN F.
YOU SORT OF TURN ON
THEM, YOU SORT OF SAY,
YOU REALIZE WHAT
YOU'RE DOING?
YOU REALIZE THAT THE EXTENT TO
WHICH YOU SORT OF DEMOLISH US,
OR PUT US IN THE SAME
PACKAGE WITH EVERYBODY ELSE,
IS THE EXTENT TO WHICH WE ARE
NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO WIN.
YOU'RE GOING TO END UP
ELECTING SOMEONE ELSE.
AND I THINK THAT'S A LARGE
PART OF THE POLITICAL CULTURE
OF THE PROVINCE WITH RESPECT
TO INTEREST GROUPS GENERALLY.
THAT IF YOU PRACTICE PURE AND
SIMPLE KIND OF, YOU KNOW,
PUSHING YOUR INTEREST
AND SAYING, WELL,
YOU GIVE ME THIS MUCH, AND
YOU GIVE ME THIS MUCH,
WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE
BROADER POLITICAL CONTEXT,
YOU PURSUE THAT
AT YOUR PERIL.
BECAUSE WHAT I THINK HAS
HAPPENED IS PEOPLE I DON'T
THINK SUFFICIENTLY APPRECIATED
HOW HIGH THE STAKES WERE.

Steve says THEY WERE SO ADAMANT
TO PUNISH YOU,
THEY DIDN'T CARE
IF THE STORIES WON.
THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.

Rae says YES.

Steve says AND ARE THEY
WORSE OFF NOW?

Rae says YES.
I DON'T THINK
THERE'S ANY QUESTION.
I THINK THERE WERE A LOT OF
PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO GET EVEN
BECAUSE WE DIDN'T
DO ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING
THEY WANTED US TO DO.
OR IN THE CASE OF SOME PARTS
OF THE LABOUR MOVEMENT
BECAUSE OF THE
SOCIAL CONTRACT.
AND GETTING EVEN IS NEVER
A GOOD BASIS FOR POLITICS
BECAUSE YEAH, THEY GOT
EVEN WITH ME, OKAY,
I'M OUT OF IT NOW.
I'M RETIRED.
CONGRATULATIONS.
AND THERE'S YOUR SUCCESSOR,
WHAT I THINK I CALLED
IN THE BOOK, THE
STARLESS SKY.
YOU'VE WON.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
CONGRATULATIONS.
AND I THINK THAT'S
A REAL PROBLEM.

Steve says HAVE YOU SPOKEN TO HARGROVE
SINCE THAT WONDERFUL
SWEARING MATCH ON THE-

Rae says I'VE SEEN HIM A
COUPLE OF TIMES.
I'VE SEEN IN HIM THE
CONTEXT OF OTHER THINGS.
I SAW HIM DURING THE FEW
THINGS IN OTHER INDUSTRIES
AND OTHER SITUATIONS.
I'VE SEEN HIM.
I DON'T GO THROUGH LIFE
WITH A HUGE NUMBER
OF PERSONAL RESENTMENTS.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY
POINT IN LIVING THAT WAY.
AND I DIDN'T WRITE THE
BOOK IN THAT SPIRIT.
I WROTE IT IN A
SPIRIT OF SAYING,
LET'S TRY AND DESCRIBE WHAT
IT'S LIKE TO BE IN OFFICE.
I TALK A LOT ABOUT
MY CHILDHOOD.
I TALK A LOT ABOUT WHO I
AM BECAUSE I WAS GETTING
A LITTLE TIRED OF READING
EVERYBODY ELSE'S ACCOUNT
OF WHAT I DID AS A KID, THEY
DIDN'T KNOW WHO THE HELL I WAS.

Steve smiles and says CAN I CHECK ONE OF THOSE
STORIES OUT WITH YOU?
OKAY, LET'S HIT
IT ON THE HEAD.
THOMAS WALKOM, IN HIS BOOK,
"RAE DAYS," ABOUT YOU, SAYS,
YOU DIDN'T KNOW YOUR
GRANDPARENTS WERE JEWISH
UNTIL YOU TURNED
18 YEARS OLD.
IS THAT TRUE?

Rae says NO.
THAT'S NOT ACCURATE.
I THINK WHAT I DESCRIBE IN
THE BOOK IS A MUCH BROADER
REFLECTION OF MY BACKGROUND
AND MY FATHER'S BACKGROUND,
AND WHERE EVERYBODY WAS
FROM, AND WHO EVERYBODY IS.

Steve says HAD THERE NOT BEEN A NAME
CHANGE ALONG THE WAY,
YOU'D BE BOBBY
COHEN TODAY.

Rae nods and says THAT'S TRUE.

Steve says THAT'S NEWS TO MANY PEOPLE
IN ONTARIO, I THINK.

Rae says WELL, IT MIGHT BE NEWS,
BUT IT'S NOT NEWS TO ME.
NOT NEWS TO
THE WORLD.
I MEAN, IN TERMS OF
WHAT AND HOW PEOPLE,
YOU KNOW, KNOW THINGS.
AGAIN, I DON'T THINK IT'S
THAT UNUSUAL IN THE CANADA
OF THE 20TH CENTURY
FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.
MY GRANDMOTHER WAS A
SCOTS PRESBYTERIAN,
AND HER HUSBAND TOOK HER NAME
AFTER THEY WERE MARRIED.

Steve says THEY MOVED TO
HAMILTON, I THINK.

Rae says THEY EVENTUALLY
MOVED TO TORONTO.
AND THAT'S WHERE MY FATHER
WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL,
WENT TO UNIVERSITY.

Steve looks down and says BACK TO POLITICS FOR A
SECOND, PREMIER EMERITUS.

He chuckles as Rae says THERE'S A LOT OF PREMIER
EMERITI AROUND, AREN'T THERE?
[chuckling]

Steve says THEY USED TO SAY ABOUT FRANK
MILLER, HE WAS A NICE GUY,
BUT JUST WRONG
GUY FOR THE TIME.
CAN THEY SAY
THAT ABOUT YOU?

Rae says I THINK THEY'LL PROBABLY
SAY A LOT OF THINGS.
I CERTAINLY TRY TO
DESCRIBE IN THIS BOOK -
I TRY TO DESCRIBE AS
CANDIDLY AS I CAN
THE MISTAKES
THAT I'VE MADE.
AND I'VE CERTAINLY
MADE MY SHARE.
BUT I THINK, IN FACT, WE WERE
A GOOD GOVERNMENT FOR THE TIMES.
I THINK HISTORY WILL LOOK BACK
AND SAY THAT WE WERE SORT
OF AT THE BEGINNING OF A BIG
CHANGE IN THE PROVINCE.
A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO START
THE CHANGE OR ARE FIRST CAUGHT
UP IN IT, HAVE A DIFFICULT
TIME KIND OF ON THAT WAVE.
I THINK THAT'S CERTAINLY
WHAT HAPPENED TO US.
BUT I THINK WE ANTICIPATED
A LOT OF CHANGES.
AND WE DID THINGS IN A WAY
THAT WAS FAR MORE PROGRESSIVE
THAN OUR SUCCESSORS.
AND I DON'T HAPPEN TO
THINK WHAT THE TORIES
ARE DOING IS SUSTAINABLE.
AND I THINK IT'S MORE THAN
LIKELY ANOTHER GOVERNMENT
WILL REPLACE THEM.

Steve says NOW, WHY DO YOU
SAY THAT?
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, FORMER
PREMIERS PETERSON AND
DAVIS DON'T GENERALLY,
AS EX-PREMIERS,
COMMENT ON ISSUES THAT
ARE SORT OF AROUND TODAY.

Rae says BECAUSE I THINK WHAT'S
HAPPENING IS SOMETHING -
NO CITIZEN CAN SIT BACK
AND SAY I DON'T HAVE
AN OPINION ON
WHAT'S HAPPENING.

Steve says THEY DO.

Rae says THAT'S THEIR
PRIVILEGE.
I DON'T INTEND
TO DO THAT.

Steve says IT'S NOT AS TRUE
FOR Mr. PETERSON,
AS IT IS FOR Mr. DAVIS.
BUT HIS ATTITUDE IS IF I
WANT TO GO OFF AND COMMENT
ON THE ISSUES TODAY, LIKE THIS,
I SHOULD STAND FOR OFFICE AGAIN.

Rae looks pensive and says I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT NOT TO
INTERFERE IN THE DAY-TO-DAY.
BUT I THINK, CERTAINLY THE
DAY-TO-DAY MANAGEMENT
OF THE PARTY OR WHAT THE
NEW LEADER IS DOING.
BUT AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED,
IT WOULD BE IRRESPONSIBLE OF ME
NOT TO SAY THAT I THINK WHAT
Mr. HARRIS IS DOING IS WRONG.
I THINK WHAT HE'S
DOING IS WRONG.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU ANOTHER ONE
OF THOSE REAL SMART ASS
QUESTIONS TO CLOSE
OFF WITH HERE.
AND THAT IS, YOU KNOW, I KNOW
JOHN DUNN SAID NO MAN
IS AN ISLAND, BUT CAN I
SUGGEST MAYBE YOU ARE.
I SAW YOU AT THE NDP
LEADERSHIP CONVENTION THAT
CHOSE HOWARD HAMPTON,
YOUR SUCCESSOR.
AND YOU SEEMED
LIKE AN ISLAND.
YOU'RE NOT AS
COMFORTABLE WITH THAT
KIND OF GROUP OF PEOPLE
AS YOU ONCE WERE.
BECAUSE OF THE FIVE
YEARS WHEN YOU GOVERNED
AND YOU HAD THOSE CHOICES
TO MAKE AND SO ON.
I KNOW YOU'RE A YONGE
STREET LAWYER,
BUT FOR ALL INTENTS AND
PURPOSES YOU'RE A BAY STREET
LAWYER NOWADAYS, AND YOU
ARE DEALING IN THE WORLD
OF INTERNATIONAL TRADE AND HIGH
FINANCE, MAKING A GOOD SALARY.
BUT MY SUSPICION IS THOSE BIG
MONEY BAY STREET PEOPLE DON'T
SEE YOU AS ONE OF
THEM EITHER.
ARE YOU KIND OF A
STATELESS SOUL, IN A WAY?

Rae chuckles and says WELL, YOU'RE PUTTING
IT A LITTLE HARSHLY.
CERTAINLY A LITTLE MORE LONELY
THAN I'D LIKE TO THINK.
I HAVE A LOT OF
FRIENDS.
IF I LISTEN
TO YOUR PROGRAM,
I HAVE NO FRIENDS
I USED TO HAVE.
I DON'T HAVE ANY
FRIENDS IN THE PARTY,
AND I DON'T HAVE ANY
FRIENDS ON BAY STREET.
LIFE ISN'T QUITE SO BAD.
I WOULDN'T BE ENJOYING MYSELF
SO MUCH IF I DIDN'T HAVE ANY.
BUT THERE'S AN ELEMENT OF
TRUTH IN WHAT YOU SAY.
NOT IN THE SENSE OF
BEING PERSONALLY LONELY,
BUT IN THE SENSE OF
FEELING THAT, YOU KNOW,
BEING IN GOVERNMENT
DID CHANGE ME.
AND KNOWING FULL WELL I DON'T
WANT TO BECOME A PILLAR
OF BAY STREET OR
ANYTHING OF THAT KIND.
THAT'S NOT MY SCHTICK.
IT'S NOT WHAT I
WANT TO DO AT ALL.
AT THE SAME TIME,
WITHIN THE PARTY,
I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF
PEOPLE WHO PROBABLY SAY
YOU'VE DONE YOUR BIT,
NOW, MAKE SPACE
FOR OTHERS TO
DO THEIRS.
AND I THINK
THAT'S RIGHT.
I THINK THAT THAT'S
THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
SO IT'S THE CHANCE FOR ME
TO PLAY A DIFFERENT ROLE
IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I CERTAINLY
DON'T FEEL POLITICALLY HOMELESS.
I FEEL QUITE AT HOME
SAYING I'M A NEW DEMOCRAT.
I'M A PROUD MEMBER
OF THE PARTY,
AND PROUD TO BE
ASSOCIATED WITH IT.
BUT WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF
A VERY DRAMATIC CHANGE
ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
I THINK WE ALL
RECOGNIZE THAT.
AND A DRAMATIC
CHANGE IN CANADA.
SOME OF THE OLD POLITICAL
FORMULAS DON'T WORK
AS MUCH AS THEY DID.
THEY HAVE TO BE CHANGED.
THEY HAVE TO BE
LOOKED AT.
I'VE ALWAYS BEEN AN
INDEPENDENT SPIRIT.
AND I THINK THE THING
THAT'S TRUE ABOUT MY LIFE,
THE REASON I WROTE THE BOOK,
IS BECAUSE I ALWAYS
HAVE TAKEN MY OWN
COUNSEL A GREAT DEAL.
AND I THINK THAT
HAS ITS MINUSES,
BUT IT ALSO HAS
ITS PLUSES.
IT MEANS I CAN
SPEAK MY MIND.
SAY WHAT I THINK, SAY WHAT
I FEEL, SAY HOW I FEEL.
AND BE LOYAL TO THE
PEOPLE, AND THE THINGS
THAT I REALLY
BELIEVE IN.

Steve says WE WISH YOU WELL
IN YOUR NEW CAREER.

Rae says THANK YOU, SIR.

Steve says AND WITH YOUR BOOK,
"FROM PROTEST TO POWER."
BOB RAE'S PERSONAL REFLECTIONS
OF A LIFE IN POLITICS.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

Watch: Interview: Bob Rae