also known as "Producers Draw a Blank on New Show Ideas"  week.

yeah the week was good. it didn't have ALL THE SAME TIRED OLD REGULARS, either .

TVO needs to look into how they hire producers.

Not so much a surprise as a window into the human mind:

No one wanted to talk about the fallacy of freedom of the will.

Jordan Peterson briefly mentioned it in an attempt to ignore it.

The other panelists stated "Environment and Genetics explain everything" which stood in opposition to the notion that there is a magical centre in our brains which adds to the decision-making process.

But no one wanted to deal with this issue specifically, though it underpins most of society.

I submit that people are either scared of the inquiry, or can't think far enough to even consider it.

Its mind-boggling since in recent years a mountain of books have been published on the issue and a trend towards "free-will is an illusion". Moreover, the eastern traditions have largely rejected the notion of thousands of years. Buddhism most explicitly rejects this with the doctrine of Anatta (Non self-hood) and dependant origination and the 5 aggregates. The Christian Bible, as well as it's counterparts (Quran/Talmud) implicitly reject Free-Will as well. In fact, it is so plainly rejected in the Biblical text that at least some sects of Christianity and Islam do reject it out-right.

The Basic Argument by British Philosopher Galen Strawson, an argument which he claims has been around for thousands of years, still stands as a direct refutation of free-will with no valid rebuttals agains it.

And yet, Mysteries of the Mind Week didn't look into this really at all, one of the greatest mysteries of the mind!

As to the others, you have already baldly claimed here on the forum, that they disagreed ! Three of them, you said.

Now you say they wouldn't address it directly ! So I guess that is just more of your wishful thinking at work. You also insist that they did address it, that they were contradicting Peterson, and yet you also claim now that they wouldn't.

Genetics and environment produce phenotype, which is not answering to if we have free will or not. That's not in opposition to Peterson, or it would have been said. It wasn't said, you merely WANT that it should be so. Show the words of those three to support your asserions, if you can !

boink.

Their ideas run from the brilliant to the incomprehensible.

For the latter group, Mysteries of the Mind makes a good descriptor. 

It is important for us all to attempt to keep up with the rapidly evolving understandings of the human mind.  I welcome a repeat of the programs.

As for any discussion of the subject matter of these shows in this forum, the workings of the mind is like most other topics. Some of those who have the least to say will contribute the most frequently and at the greatest length.

Is part of being clueless the conviction that your useless notions have great value? 

Dude, you quoted some text, one line from the Bible, assuming that is where it is from. There are 500 lines where "Free" choice is negated. The Parable of the Sower (matthew 13) clearly suggests 3 types of minds, two of which understandeth not the word of God or the mind-soil is not pure enough to accept the word and the "wicked one" taketh away.

That is directly in contradiction with the notion of free-will. "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?"

"Therefor it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

"That he had afore prepared unto glory"

Etc...

I've posted dozens upon dozens of such versus and you and the religious fundies always fall back on this one passage, nor can you seem to provide actual sources. I have the above memorized!

Parable of the Sower (Matthew 13:1-20)

The Potter and the rest are from Romans 9.

Want more?

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

Oh, seems like Pharaoh made a free-choice here, oh, wait for it, no, Nail, hang on, wait for it....

Exodus 9:12
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

FUk@!!!! What does that mean? The choice Pharaoh made was exactly what God had ordained! Goddamnit!

Romans 9:17

¹⁷For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

 ¹⁸Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ah man! No Freedom there! So, how does this freedom crap work then? It works sometimes, but not all the time? Only when you think it works, but then how do you know? You don't. Goodbye.

well, yes, St. Augustine had 3 theories to try and explain the contradictions. Calvinsists take from one. 

But I only quoted one. There are as many for either view.

Religionists claim that Pharoah's heart was hardened by God by the choice set in front of him, thus an indirect hardening, which was left as a choice..which choice...God knew in advance, of course. .Pharoah himself making the choice against following commandment, but not making the choice of the choice  presented to him. You know, Schopey.

It's all an endless regression either way.

So not correct to say it's all one way,   What would be the point of the whole exercise, if it were ? Hmmm?

If you believe there is sense in it, or lessons to learn, then you bleeve it's gotta  make  sense,

And what sense is there in a philosophy of  work, of trying so hard, if nothing can ever be affected or changed through that labour and sacrifice of self and accepting a gift? ...a gift that only philosophers of a certain school could reach, and that gift is learning  that nothing can be changed ? NO freedom, now or ever.

god making robots that either follow commandments or don't, and the ones that don't are following his initial instruction FOR THEM ..and , well... you know the end of them.

Augustine gave the 3 conflicting arguments and left it to the lawyers to sort.

Killing ego merely so that one could clearly observe that it's hopeless to try ?

Yup, maybe you have to experience Hell in order that you appreciate Heaven.

an insane person is actually a sane person living in an  insane world…. Try not  to pick on them they don’t like it…

One reason I am sure that you have not investigated properly is this:

Like father, like son, so to speak. Let's ressurrect the "Horror of Jesus" thread for this job.

How you are iprovided a feeble reason to claim others only bring out a line here and there, is because , they likely do as I did : they bring out a line that is explicitly, unmistakeably, showing choice, whereas your many lines can be seen as in "your way" or as if they are ambiguous, but are obviously not to be taken "your"way...not if  you are  discerning enough. And, as mentioned, not all choices are available to choose from, for humans. We don't get to choose our parents, for instance. so there will be many lines that show "no choices available".

Romans 9 (King James Version)

Romans 9

 ¹I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

 ²That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

 ³For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

 ⁴Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

 ⁵Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 ⁶Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 ⁷Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

 ⁸That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 ⁹For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

 ¹⁰And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

 ¹¹(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

 ¹²It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

 ¹³As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 ¹⁴What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

 ¹⁵For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 ¹⁶So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 ¹⁷For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

 ¹⁸Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 ¹⁹Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

 ²⁰Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 ²¹Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 ²²What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 ²³And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Ok, it rather clearly says "afore prepared unto glory".

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

"predestined"???? Hey Nail?

Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Well "predestined" is a tough word to follow, but lets try "caused".

Genesis 2:21
So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh.

Judges 7:22
When the three hundred trumpets sounded, the LORD caused the men throughout the camp to turn on each other with their swords. The army fled to Beth Shittah toward Zererah as far as the border of Abel Meholah near Tabbath.

There are endless passages like this, but there is also passages where people cause nations to commit acts.

1 Kings 15:30
because of the sins Jeroboam had committed and had caused Israel to commit, and because he provoked the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger.

2 Kings 19:25
" 'Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass, that you have turned fortified cities into piles of stone.

Job 20:29
Such is the fate God allots the wicked, the heritage appointed for them by God."

"fate"?

Alright. Your one passage says it all I guess... lol

I think you are missing the point here Nail. A person makes decisions, but those decisions are ordained by laws of nature.

That is, to use the word "choice" from a subjective, sociological point of view is erroneous when discussing the nature of reality. Never-the-less it is acceptable in this context to say someone chose and for that choice also to be ordained.

Which is why the Bible has this dualism, as in the hardening of Pharoah's heart.

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Here Pharoah hardened his own heart in accordance with God's Will.

Exodus 7:22
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

Here it is said passively, it just happened, it was not attributed to anyone, but God predicted it.

Exodus 7:13
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Here God directly caused Pharoah's heart to harden. So we have three different reference points and it makes sense that Pharoah with have chosen at the same time God had ordained it. It seems you can't figure how this works....

No. Been there done that, bought the t-shirt.

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