UPDATE:
Jesse Hirsh and Tony Walsh both talk about their experience on the Agenda (and as avatars in your living room) on their blogs. Check 'em out.
Hello,
Tonight, we're going to be looking at an Internet program called Second Life. People log on, create characters and then basically interact with other people who have logged on, exploring a vast, fake world. Sounds like a game (and not exactly an exciting one) but technology experts and even business analysts say this is the future of the economy. Tune in and find out how.
In the meantime, here is the text from an MSN chat I had with my brother Dave. Dave manages a guild in a multi-player online game called World of Warcraft. Take a look and see how some people are living online.
Mike says:
Want to do an interview?
Dave says:
on second life?
Mike says:
I was thinking World of Warcraft
Mike says:
For my blog
Dave says:
oh, sure
Dave says:
yeah, be happy to
Mike says:
We can do it on MSN here and I'll just put it in the blog
Dave says:
okay
Mike says:
Maybe you can start by explaining your guild. Why do you need a union to play this game?
Dave says:
There are some challenges in the game that simply can't be overcome in small numbers. Whereas the "usual" game can be enjoyed solo or in a small group (5 or less), these larger encounters need 20-40 people to do enough damage and healing to survive.
Dave says:
The game has a level cap... your character starts at level 1 and can only get to level 60
Dave says:
In order to continue to provide new content that will challenge high-level characters
Dave says:
as well as offer new gear (armor, weapons, and powers) that will allow you to make a character more powerful
Mike says:
(For our readers, World of Warcraft is an online Dungeons and Dragons style game where a nearly limitless number of people can log on and play from their computers at home)
Dave says:
they have these top-level "end-game" instances that require powerful characters to work together in large numbers to earn these increasingly powerful rewards.
Mike says:
So how long does it take you to get to level 60? How many hours of play?
Dave says:
It depends on your play style. An aggressive player who did little else with his waking hours could probably do it in two to three weeks, or even less. A gamer playing a few hours a night would probably reach level 60 over a course of a few months - maybe 4-5.
Mike says:
So, you're far enough past level 60 that you need to create a guild. How many hours have you put into playing this game? Just an estimate will do.
Dave says:
Well, you don't need to create a guild just for the endgame. Playing with a group of people makes it easier to find people to do lower-level content with. Also, characters in the game have a variety of skills. Some might be blacksmiths while others are tailors or alchemists. So by having a group of people with complementary skills working together...
Dave says:
you can really help one another out. And the social element is what most people play for anyways.
Dave says:
But to answer your question...
Mike says:
But that's what I find interesting.
Mike says:
Okay, go ahead
Dave says:
I think I was probably about 60 days (that's 60x24 hours) of playtime into the game before I hit level 60. I might be misremembering, as this was a long time ago, but it sounds about right. My main character who has been level 60 for well over a year now has over 100 days played.
Dave says:
This isn't one of my prouder achievements.
Mike says:
You mean 2400 hours?
Mike says:
Like a full day in the game?
Dave says:
yup
Mike says:
My god, man
Dave says:
a full day
Mike says:
Have you ever considered taking up an outside interest?
Dave says:
Bear in mind I've been playing this game for a few years now, since its release.
Mike says:
Joining a street gang, maybe?
Mike says:
Same sort of activities, but more fresh air
Dave says:
Heh. Well, there were a few factors, not the least of which is that I'm a gamer geek.
Dave says:
But first of all, I played with a large group of real-life friends who were all into the game.
Dave says:
That was the best possible social experience.
Mike says:
OK
Mike says:
But beyond the hours in the game, you also spend hours of, let's call it "flesh time", organizing the guild
Dave says:
Secondly, most MMOs (Massively Multiplayer Online) games reward only freakish devotion. So you have to play a lot to get the cool trinkets.
Dave says:
And thirdly, my girlfriend was very sick at about the time WoW came out. While she was recuperating, we couldn't go out and do anything, because she didn't have the energy. But we COULD log into this virtual world and go exploring. That was pretty fun.
Dave says:
Yes, to organize a large guild especially requires a huge time committment.
Mike says:
You just wanted to point out that you actually have a girlfriend, didn't you?
Dave says:
A gamer girlfriend no less.
Mike says:
The rarest kind
Dave says:
So we're talking about organizations that may have over 100 people in them.
Dave says:
It's a hell of a crash course in management.
Mike says:
When we were home for Thanksgiving, I overheard you on the phone having an intense conversation
Mike says:
I thought you were breaking up with your lady, but you said something loud about the person being in Indiana or something and I realized you were calling out a guild member for sloppy attendance
Dave says:
That's not quite what was going down. But that was a case where this is somebody I met in-game who had gone on to become a real-life friend. There was an issue within the guild, and like in any organization, those issues need to be addressed. I was basically management, and I had the luxury of being able to call this guy up on the phone and talk some things out with him.
Dave says:
But the average guild is going to have a tremendously active website, with all kinds of airings of grievances.
Dave says:
You're dealing with guys who often need to put in full-time job hours to handle the challenges in the game, competing for limited rewards.
Mike says:
Sounds like a lot of fun
Dave says:
It can be a really stressful environment, which is something that drove a lot of people - myself included - away from the game.
Dave says:
It's hard to understand unless you've done it.
Mike says:
As with so many things
Dave says:
Within the confines of the game, we killed a God.
Mike says:
Couldn't just talk things out with Him?
Dave says:
Explaining it to an outsider, it must sound like madness. But to have 40 people standing over the corpse of C'Thun after spending months learning Ahn'Qiraj...
Dave says:
it's an elating experience, and in a weird way, totally worth it.
Hi,
I'm hoping my brother or anyone else will take the initiative to answer your questions, because I'm on the outside looking in. But here's my take:
Are the members attracted to this way of life because of fruitless relations is real life?
I'm betting most of the people who are spend this much time online are just normal folks. There is probably a specific appeal for the sky and awkward, but I doubt it's more of an escape than, say, going to see a movie or reading a book. Although I do think spending so much time online is a concern, just because it limits the kinds of experience you might have.
Are the chances of success in future palpable relations further diminished by the virtual familiarity that people have on-line as they have not coped face to face with their past experiences?
I imagine if you're an undersocialized individual, programs like these are a blessing and a curse. You will meet some people and make some friends, which is great. But if you spend all your time online it will isolate you from the world around you. So, like anything else, it's just a matter of balance.
Are employers footing the bill of wasted productivity while these millions of people are living their social lives online when they should be working?
Neo-leisure! One of my favorite topics. Chances are, if someone is goofing off at work on this prgram, they'd have been goofing off at work with some other program if Second Life didn't exist. I don't think it's a problem specific to these types of activities.
posted by Mike Miner
on 04 January 2007 at 2:52 PM
Thanks for the reply... I will be watching tonight to learn more.
Your are correct that balance is the key.
posted by kimlid on 04 January 2007 at 3:06 PM
F.
posted by spun.mr on 04 January 2007 at 9:00 PM
I don't participate in Second Life, but I did spend about 4 years immersed in one of the early large multiplayer online games. For a significant group of people, (including myself) the experience quickly became one of social interaction rather than gaming. Listening to tonight's show, many of the struggles and challenges faced by people living in virtual reality felt very familiar to me. I will state briefly that I had a very enjoyable and rewarding interaction with dozens of people. We certainly felt like a community, used instant messaging to create political systems, developed policing, (Greifers have been around since the beginning). We also saw the very beginnings of a virtual economy with the first sales of online real estate and property. I sold virtual products, won a poetry reading contest in front of an appreciative audience, planned events and learned the extent and the limits of trust in online social interaction.
Question #1 " Are the members attracted to this way of life because of fruitless relations is real life?" I think this is a very common misconception. The people I associated with were a broad spectrum of society. A good number were professionals, married, family people. I won't deny that having a muscular (or curvy) looking avatar to represent you can make initial social interaction go easier if you are usually insecure but even online in a virtual world, people will eventually figure out who has poor social skills. I think that what really happens is that people are attracted to a novel online experience, and discover that they also enjoy the social and human interaction through the medium.
Question #2" Are the chances of success in future palpable relations ... diminished..."
This depends on the age and maturity of the participant. Adults have hopefully developed the skills for solid relationships and positive social interaction in the "real world". Not everyone on the internet is a callow youth. I will admit I would not want a young adolescent spending all their time only in online relationships.
Question #3 " Are employers footing the bill of wasted productivity"
Yes. I think this is a real issue. But the issue is not just virtual reality, but everything involved with the computers employers put in our cubicles. Everything from chain email, to web browsing, online singles dating, to games of solitaire are potential problems. Employers can develop policies and take precautions to minimize this.
Question #4 "In communicating, I feel the most impact when I am within arm’s reach of a person’s physical being."
I am from a generation for whom physical presence is part of relationship, but as I look at my adult children, (coming of age in the net generation) I see that the definition of what "whole" communication means may be very different in the future. For my kids, a "conversation" with a friend in Germany or Thailand through instant messaging is just as "real" and "whole" as meeting for a coffee at Tim Hortons.
Question #5 "I do appreciate those who participate in virtual worlds do at that moment in time feel a welcoming sense of kinship (that perhaps is foreign in their daily experience on planet earth) but if it does not materialize in tangible relations, it will lead to an empty abode."
I agree that the "realness" of relationships online needs to be clarified. You may think you have "Friends" but they may only be acquaintances. The technology is still too primitive, and is a barrier to our normal ways of connecting, of judging people, of reading motivations and intentions. On the other hand, in a virtual context, I have worked on team projects, and shared a sense of accomplishment and group cohesiveness. Do we really do any better at relationships with the co-workers in our real life jobs?
posted by Rudy on 04 January 2007 at 9:51 PM
Hello all,
I am the brother in the above interview, and I'd like to try and address Kimlid's questions. I should mention that my online gaming experience is limited to World of Warcraft, and I haven't played Second Life, which seems to have a different social dynamic. I didn't see the Agenda's piece on the game either, so I apologize if your questions were directed more towards social issues generated in that discussion.
>>Are the members attracted to this way of life because of fruitless relations is real life?
I think you're confusing a way of life with a hobby. I've always enjoyed an active social life, and I probably have a daily schedule very similar to anybody else. I probably don't devote a greater portion of my day to video gaming than I would any other recreation that I enjoy.
The main difference is that I can watch a movie in two hours, read a book in a few days, and even finish a "regular" single-player video game over a weekend. A massively multiplayer online game generates most of its revenue from the ongoing subscription fees (approximately $20 CDN per month to play WoW), and thus the content is designed to keep players engaged for months on end, and new content is added on an ongoing basis.
There is effectively a new game experience waiting for you every time you log on, so it's not tremendously different from watching a tv show for multiple seasons.
Imagine, just for the sake of comparison, a book that you absolutely loved to read, but this book was millions of pages long, and it took you two years of regular reading to finish. Are you reading the book because of fruitless relations in real life, or are you simply enjoying yourself?
>>Are the chances of success in future palpable relations further diminished by the virtual familiarity that people have on-line as they have not coped face to face with their past experiences?
I think you're misconstruing an openness to making friends online with an aversion to making them in real life. I've met some people through this game who have become great friends outside of the game, but I doubt the gaming experience would have been anywhere near as fun if I wasn't playing with a great group of people I already knew in real life. It was probably our version of a house league softball team, only we just preferred beating up dragons and stealing their gold to stealing bases.
There are probably people who, for any number of reasons, may prefer online interaction, and it's certainly fun to be able to adopt a new persona, particularly in a fantasy world where everybody gets to be a hero. However, the vast majority of gamers understand implicitly that it is a fantasy world, which is a credit that many people who don't really appreciate video games don't seem to want to give us.
I have been enjoying video games for 25 of my 31 years, and to reiterate, I've always had an active and satisfying social life. I can state with certainty, from extensive firsthand experience, that being inclined to enjoy video games has not left me inclined to seek out online relationships in preference of "real life" relationships. I just think it's given me the experience to know that I don't have to see somebody's face or shake their hand to make a friend. Also, making friends online is a happy coincidence. It's not the reason I play.
If it turns out that people who have difficulties forming bonds in person have an easier time forming them online, then I say more power to them.
Put simply, I do not believe that being antisocial is a consequence of enjoying video games.
posted by Mike's Brother
on 05 January 2007 at 12:39 AM
>>Are employers footing the bill of wasted productivity while these millions of people are living their social lives online when they should be working?
Playing the average MMO usually requires a fairly sophisticated computer with the software installed and an advanced graphics card, as well as some time to concentrate on the game. Neither is easy to come by in the average working environment. It would be about as easy to spend time at the office playing World of Warcraft as it would be to surreptitiously play a game of tackle football in the break room.
I'm sure that there are people who have issues with responsibility that play video games. It is incorrect to assume that the two are related.
>>In communicating, I feel the most impact when I am within arm’s reach of a person’s physical being. When we are in the presence of others there is wholeness to our interaction (whether is positive or negative). It is empowering when you can stand up for yourself in person among friends, family, enemies, or complete strangers. If you never give yourself that chance, a great opportunity for living self-worth is lost.
My favourite aunt lives in British Columbia, and I have lived my entire life in Ontario. She exists to me mainly over the phone, through letters, and in emails. She is no less real or important to me than my Uncle who lives down the highway who I can visit on an hour's notice. Your statement "if you never give yourself that chance..." seems to assume that many online gamers have a social life that exists exclusively in the virtual world. I'm just as likely to run into my friends at the pub as I am online. Moreover, I appreciate the fact that advances in communications technology allows people to travel in social circles that are limited only by their interests, and not their postal code.
>>I do appreciate those who participate in virtual worlds do at that moment in time feel a welcoming sense of kinship (that perhaps is foreign in their daily experience on planet earth) but if it does not materialize in tangible relations, it will lead to an empty abode.
Once again, your comment that kinship is foreign "on planet earth" suggests that you are overestimating the significance of online socializing to the average gamer. I don't play World of Warcraft because I didn't have anybody to play catch with, or a book club meeting to go to, or a sweater to knit. I play it because I think that wizards throwing fireballs at demons is really cool, I enjoy playing video games, and I really love to be able to share the experience with my friends.
I don't mean to sound as though I've taken personal offense to your comments. I suspect you probably don't understand gamer culture any better than I understand why my brother likes to follow a baseball season.
I - and the dozens of real-life friends with whom I enjoy this and other games, and the millions of people around the world who enjoy them as well - am a geek, not a recluse. I wonder if video gaming is still a new enough hobby that many people simply don't yet recognize the distinction.
posted by Mike's Brother on 05 January 2007 at 12:40 AM
Your are correct I don't understand gamer culture and I grew up in it. My brother & my boyfriend during my teenage years used to spend all night on their system of choice. So perhaps I am bitter on another level :)
I should note I have tried to play again & again but it does not appeal to me.
My kids now play on their consoles. My son times himself accordingly so I do not interupt his flow with dinner. My hubby prefers to spend time with me and rarely plays (only to please the kids).
Best of luck to all of you in your ventures and I really appreciate the time you took to try and help me understand. This type of discussion (on-line, no less)does serve to bridge our differences.
posted by kimlid on 05 January 2007 at 9:00 AM
For the record, Dave, I follow baseball because I have nobody to play catch with and no book club to go to.
Some feedback I heard about the show last night suggested we didn't talk enough about the joys on online anonimity.
Our guests talked a little bit about it, but I'd be interested in some feedback, particularly from people who spend a lot of time online.
A point raised by one guest (in the green room, sadly, not on the air) was that if you get a bad reputation online, you get shunned just like you would if you were amish and have no internet. So you'd have to create a new avatar that people don't hate yet - which is like starting a new email account because nobody knows how to find you on the Internet anymore.
So I'd like to hear some thoughts about whether anonimity is a big part of the appeal of online livin'.
And I'm really impressed at the thoughtful responses so far.
posted by Mike Miner
on 05 January 2007 at 11:28 AM
Check out what Tony Walsh had to say on his blog:
http://www.secretlair.com/index.php?/clickableculture/entry/tvo_gets/
posted by Mike Miner
on 05 January 2007 at 11:32 AM
This was a wonderful discussion, Mike, on a fascinating subject. It is one of the best Agenda discussions I have seen so far. The panel was topnotch and I hope you will do more like it.
posted by Boris on 05 January 2007 at 2:42 PM
Did it enhance your enjoyment any?
posted by Mike Miner
on 05 January 2007 at 2:55 PM
Yeah, Mike, I got a chuckle out of it. It put me in the right frame of mind, let's say. But I would have loved the discussion anyway, I'm sure of that.
posted by Boris on 05 January 2007 at 4:57 PM
As a 73 year old grandmother I suppose most of you would think my ideas old fashioned, maybe they are. Here goes anyway. I think people who participate in the kind of "virtual reality" game which was discussed on The Agenda are escaping from life. Presumably there is no cancer, no incurable diseases and no death in this game. How can they call that virtual reality. As a final comment I would like to recall a segment of The Agenda (which the panellists probably did not see as they were no doubt busy elsewhere) about cocoa bean pickers in an African country. These people don't even know what chocolate is. They are mostly children who have been kidnapped and sold and who work for pennies a day. I'll just bet that any of them would love to take a trip in "virtual reality". But I'll also bet that it will not be any day soon even though all of us, in the words of one of the panelists will someday be spending 24/7 in reality and in "virtual reality". Not me I can promise you.
posted by Kingstonnana on 07 January 2007 at 1:30 PM
Kingstonnana, you're exactly right. Playing an online game is a form of escape from reality - in exactly the same way as is reading a book, watching a movie, or playing a sport.
Gamers choose to play because it's a pastime we enjoy, not because we can't deal with everyday life and need a fantasy world in which to flee. Fantasy worlds in which one temporarily escapes the daily grind certainly aren't the exlclusive domain of video gamers.
I will grant that I was probably more inclined to spend as much time as I did playing online because I was living in a city at the time that didn't offer much in the way of night life. However, quite contrary from this being antisocial behaviour, this was a social event enjoyed nightly by myself and a large group of my friends, who could just as easily have spent the time at a bar or at the movies. We played because we felt like it and enjoyed it.
Most importantly, I'd like to emphasize that there are people who enjoy any pastimes irresponsibly. I'm sure that there are extreme cases of people who can't tell or accept the difference between the worlds of fantasy (online or otherwise) and reality, but that has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with the individual. You wouldn't judge all wine aficionados - much less the wine - based on the actions of a single alcoholic.
Please don't judge us based on the extreme cases. :)
posted by Mike's Brother on 08 January 2007 at 11:21 PM
I'm not saying you are or aren't...it's not for me to say...but
Do you know most addict's don't even know they are one?
They don't think they have a problem..it's everybody else who's wrong, doesn't understand etc. It usually takes a family member, spouse, friend to bring it to the addict's attention? And, sadly that doesn't always work.
Addictions aren't always found in a bottle.
Susan
posted by SusieQ on 09 January 2007 at 7:26 AM
Well, maybe we should turn this outward since there's more to what's going on with Second Life and World of Warcraft than people spending a lot of time using them.
Researchers at NYU are at work perfecting a new computer interface, where you don't use a keyboard or mouse. You use your hands on a screen (if you need to type, you can call up a keyboard on the screen). Pair that with 3D internet, and you have got something that is a greater leap ahead in the way we look at the Web than highspeed was from dial-up text-based browsing.
You're seeing little buds here that are going to blossom - and you and everybody you know will use the new programs. It's like email all over again - you will take part.
posted by Mike Miner
on 09 January 2007 at 11:04 AM
Thank you for your respnse Mike's brother. I do not intend to be judgemental although I guess it sounds as if I am. It is just that all of my active life I spend a lot of my time doing volunteer work and being on committees and club executives. Raising a family as well and running a home left me very little time to "waste" if I also wanted to have quality leisure time. I guess my idea of a hobby is that it should also be of value. I had lots of hobbies but they always had some positive outcome. Maybe I am old fashioned but I still believe the work ethic can also encompass hobbies. My family, fortunately, also share my views. People have the right to use their time as they wish. I just think there are so many things that need doing and so many people in need of people to take time for them. I frankly think that they could spend their time more usefully. I guess that is being judgemental but there we are.
posted by Kingstonnana on 09 January 2007 at 12:56 PM
I can remember my big brother Tim talking me in to getting my first computer and being amazed at all I could do in my home. Up until that time I'd only worked on huge main frames that took up rooms larger than the apartment I was raised in...I would now greatly miss the time I spend on line. I play the occasional game, keep in touch will a lot of people and am always interested in seeing the same old things in new ways, which sites like this certainly help with. I too do a lot of volunteer work and a lot of reading and gardening and would love to get involved in one of these alternate realities. Unfortunately, I just don't have the gift for it .. my thinking often is not strategic and truthfully I enjoy playing the game more than I care about winning, so no one would ever recruit me. I personally believe that all the tools gamers use automatically carry over into the more practical aspects of their every day life...goal setting, personal relationship building, strategic thinking, time commitment and follow through, and myriad other life lessons. We used to have monopoly marathons and have trouble sometimes people who were interested in spending the time .. on line gives you a larger group of 'friends' to draw upon and someone is always available. Keep on keeping on
posted by dorothy on 11 January 2007 at 4:19 PM
posted by zhouyun on 28 August 2010 at 3:13 AM
*You must have a FREE TVO account in order to comment on posts
Don't have an account?
*You must have a FREE TVO account in order to comment on posts
Producer Mike Miner blogs about the Internet, media and culture. Follow Mike on Twitter.
The Agenda with Steve Paikin Allan Gregg in Conversation Big Ideas
Think Again
Beyond me ...
I have never participated in that particular type of forum, so my questions are:
Are the members attracted to this way of life because of fruitless relations is real life?
Are the chances of success in future palpable relations further diminished by the virtual familiarity that people have on-line as they have not coped face to face with their past experiences?
Are employers footing the bill of wasted productivity while these millions of people are living their social lives online when they should be working?
In communicating, I feel the most impact when I am within arm’s reach of a person’s physical being. When we are in the presence of others there is wholeness to our interaction (whether is positive or negative). It is empowering when you can stand up for yourself in person among friends, family, enemies, or complete strangers. If you never give yourself that chance, a great opportunity for living self-worth is lost.
I do appreciate those who participate in virtual worlds do at that moment in time feel a welcoming sense of kinship (that perhaps is foreign in their daily experience on planet earth) but if it does not materialize in tangible relations, it will lead to an empty abode.
posted by kimlid on 04 January 2007 at 1:57 PM