UPDATED AT 14:45... GREEN PARTY APOLOGIZES TO BLOGGER... DETAILS AT BOTTOM OF THIS POST
UPDATE # 2 AT 16:11... TEXT OF JOHN BENNETT'S APOLOGY... DETAILS AT BOTTOM OF THIS POST
UPDATE # 3 AT 19:40... ELIZABETH MAY ADDRESSES CONTROVERSY... DETAILS AT BOTTOM OF THIS POST
Green Party leader Elizabeth May, who has been in the news a bit this week, will make an appearance tonight on our program for an interview with Steve Paikin.
It's not the first time May has been on the Agenda, and one of her previous appearances has provoked a bit of a kerfuffle in the blogosphere (video at bottom of this post).
On this program, broadcast before a live audience at U of T's Munk Centre back in February, 2007, May was part of a panel discussion on climate change and the economy.
She made a comment back then that came to the attention this week of the partisan Conservative blogger Stephen Taylor. Taylor took an audio clip of May off this website, and created a 24-second anti-May video, which he posted to YouTube and blogged about here.
As outlined in this article, the video was picked up and reposted by other bloggers, some of whom quoted May as having said "...I think Canadians are stupid...".
John Bennett of the Greens insisted that Taylor doctored the audio tape (Taylor denied this) and informed at least one blogger that both the Greens and TVO (not true, see below) were considering legal action if the video remained posted on his site. Bennett told the Tyee that:
Stephen Taylor is a surrogate for the Conservative Party...We're considering legal action. TVO is considering legal action as well.
Jill Javet, TVO's director of corporate relations, made this statement on the matter this morning:
TVO confirms that the audio of the clip in question is intact. As such, TVO is not and will not be pursuing legal action of any kind on this matter.
All of this, though, may be a tempest in a teapot, because a few of us here at the shop have reviewed the tape in question and - although she says it a bit quickly - May does not seem to be saying "... I think Canadians are stupid..." at all, but rather " ... They think Canadians are stupid..." In the context of the conversation, the "they" in question would be other politicians who do not have the political will to consider a carbon tax.
In the words of Daffy Duck, this whole incident may come down to a case of pronoun trouble.
To some listeners, May's comment is made a bit more ambiguous by another comment she makes right afterward: "... and I fundamentally agree with that assessment...".
It is unclear if she is agreeing with the assessment that Canadians are stupid, or with the assessment of the questioner from the audience, who says there is no political will for a carbon tax. To be fair to May, she clearly does agree with the latter assessment. The question is whether or not she also agrees with the former.
We'll ask her tonight.
In the meantime, you will find below the video of the clip that has caused the kerfuffle. Judge for yourself what was or was not said:
UPDATE: I have spoken with Green Party Press Secretary Camille Labchuk. She says the party intends to issue an apology to the blogger known as Buckdog, who had been threatened with a lawsuit by Green Party communications director John Bennett for posting a link to Stephen Taylor's YouTube video.
Labchuk said the incident "was a misunderstanding on John Bennett's part about the way that YouTube works". The Greens do not intend to pursue any legal actions against any blogger, Labchuk says.
UPDATE #2: Here is the text of John Bennett's apology to Buckdog:
Dear Mr. Buckdog,
I apologize for my hasty email yesterday. My actions came out of a concern to ensure that internet content is an honest and real representation of facts and I look forward to future positive dialogue with you and other bloggers.
In the TVO clip, Elizabeth May clearly says "they" think Canadians are stupid, referring to the opinions of some politicians. She then turns to the questioner and agrees with HIS assessment that a carbon tax is essential. No spin can change that.
I have included a video clip and quote from Elizabeth May that indicate her clear respect for the intelligence of Canadians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIWFDsmmfz4
"It needs to be explained, but I think Canadians are smart enough to understand the idea that we need to ensure that we reduce our use of fossil fuels, that the climate crisis is upon us, and this is not the only thing we need to do, but it is the foundation for a successful climate policy," Elizabeth May said. CTV's Question Period on Sunday, May 25, 2008.
Sincerely,
John Bennett
UPDATE # 3: In an interview that will air on TVO at 8 p.m. and is available online here, Green Party Leader Elizabeth May addresses the controversy surrounding what she said on the Agenda in February, 2007.
I hear "they". So I went to the link you have for Stephen Taylor and read his stuff. His youtube video images are one sided as it's not the same footage from your show (his footage start with a picture of Dion) but the audio is the same.
For all of his proclaimed credentials and hand shaking pictures on his site, how does a fellow like this have time to play such manipulative games? It says a lot about the foundation of his character and leaves a stain the party he supports.
posted by Patrick Canavan on 12 September 2008 at 3:01 PM
Seems to me there's a big difference between the word "I" and the word "they" with respect to May's comment that Canadians are stupid.
Every rendition of the conversation I have listened to she clearly said "I" not "they". Regardless she still thinks Canadians are stupid. If she thinks trying to worm her way out of this hangs on a word she is sadly mistaken.
Seems May's answer to the pressure of Canadian politics is to sue bloggers for repeating on their blogs what she said.
In my view she is unfit for office and the Green Party will never get my vote since she's clearly not on my side like the conservatives are.
One thing for sure millions of us "stupid" Canadians will be tuning in to watch her try to talk her way out of the corner she backed herself into.
posted by markalanwhittle on 12 September 2008 at 3:13 PM
Glad you liked the word. Daffy Duck indeed. Curious, the over-zealous lawyer gets the slap. I agree with Patrick, the Conservative Party brand was boot-stamped all over Steven Taylors simpyloveseggs YouTube posting. It is also clear from the TVO clip that May not only says "other politicians think Canadians are stupid", but she then addressed someone's un-amplified comment from the panel, because she turns her head away from the camera, looks down the line of seats, and quick as she is, says "And I fundamentally agree with that." meaning, whatever it was that one of the panelists said that was unheard by us. Other than the over zealous lawyer, all of the Bananapatch's rant is misplaced: the Conservatives who branded the Taylor posting have an unprincipled view of this campaign, and they are the real story here.
posted by Jerry Prager on 12 September 2008 at 3:19 PM
'cause you just sounded like another Conservative boot stamping its way across the blogosphere.
posted by Jerry Prager on 12 September 2008 at 3:22 PM
I am not so sure it matters all that much whether she said Canadians are stupid and I agree, or that politicians think Canadians are stupid and I agree, or that anyone is stupid.
What is extremely troubling are the actions of the Greens after the video was posted unedited to YouTube. Threatening legal action in such a ham fisted way, especially after crying foul about the Greens right to free speech in the debate is the issue at this point.
So Mr Paikin I have a question for you to ask Ms May.
"Did you Ms May authorize the threat of lawsuit? If not and your communcation director attacked free speech in this way will you be dismissing Mr Bennett immediately for his behaviour and poor judgement?"
An apology is simply not enough. Ms May has asked Canadians to see her as a national leader worthy of being in the Leaders debate. She must, if she has any real integrity, demand higher of herself and her staff than a half mumbled apology akin to something a child might do after clobbering another with a bat. That after all is what Mr Bennett did on Ms May's behalf - he tried to clobber someone's free speech with a threatened lawsuit.
posted by H R Pufnstuf on 12 September 2008 at 3:26 PM
To quote the Rock Man in the Land of Point, "The thing is you see what you want to see, and you hear what you want to hear. You dig?"
But look at it in the context of her full comment, starting with "all the other politicians are scared to death to mention the word tax". It only makes sense that she would follow it up with "they" think that Canadians are stupid.
posted by Chris Winter on 12 September 2008 at 3:28 PM
It's not the lawyer so much as it was the communications director who got the slap, and yes the sentence was garbled, like so many internet comments when passions are aroused.
posted by Jerry Prager on 12 September 2008 at 3:47 PM
It's amazing to see such expertise on this site with regards to audio/video analysis...all that really matters is that no one can even agree on what she said and/or meant to say...we can all speculate until we're blue in the face. Unfortunately, this is not the first time she's been unclear or had to go back after a statement to clarify her meaning or defend herself. I'd prefer a national politician who a) doesn't think Canadians are stupid and b) who can say it right the first time.
posted by grouchy on 12 September 2008 at 3:56 PM
The audio was unedited, but the video was, and the misleadng statement 'May says Canadians are Stupid' was used as the title of the piece with no reference to The AgendaL the truths and the clarity of her statements are self-evident in the fuller version provided by TVO. It is Stephen Taylor and the fact that he is a fellow at the Manning Institute that is now the story. As Chris Winter says, the context of her statements supplies the basis of her actual statement: this was an intentionally malicious piece of conservative propaganda designed to discredit Ms. May. And it has failed miserably. Taylor has still not changed his blog. Online Conservative hatchetmen are the story now.
posted by Jerry Prager on 12 September 2008 at 3:58 PM
The story is not about what she may or may not have said. All political parties have taken quotes and spun them, including the Greens.
What the story is about is the action of Mr Bennett. He threated a lawsuit for a direct quotation from a TVO podcast. Bennett indicated that the clip was doctored- it was not. He indicated that TVO was also considering sueing- they were not. Where I come from that is called lying. His half-hearted apolgy notwithstanding the Greens have to take responsibilty for their actions AFTER, the video was posted.
Personally I beleive she is indicating that she agrees Canadians are stupid, but that does not matter. Reasonable people can interpret it how they see fit and we will never really know what she meant as no one followed up at the time. I could care less at this point. What I do care about is someone that wraps themselves in the flag of free speech one day and threatens to sue someone for quoting them, is not being challenged for her undemocratic action and this apology is about as heart felt as something Witchiepoo would have said.
Either can Bennett Ms May, or admit publicly he acted on your instruction or your blessing, nothing else is good enough. If you want to be in the big leads you have to play by the big league rules. You don't get to put the ball on a t-ball stand anymore.
posted by H R Pufnstuf on 12 September 2008 at 4:32 PM
"Elizabeth May clearly says "they" think Canadians are stupid, referring to the opinions of some politicians."
A big part of the problem for the Greens is that it is not clear what she says. It could be "I" or "They." After repeated listening, I still wasn't sure.
posted by Mike Miner
on 12 September 2008 at 4:45 PM
It is absolutely absurd that people (incidentally self-identifying themselves as conservatives...) are trying to promote this notion that she said "I think Canadians are stupid".
Let us *objectively* dissect the evidence in context:
It is agreed by everyone here that May says "_____ think Canadians are stupid- and I fundamentally agree with that-".
It is an indisputable fact that May said this statement. Everyone is in agreement to this point; it's what goes in the blank that's supposedly in question. So let us objectively examine what's there: does it make any sense whatsoever that she would be verbally acknowledging that she is in agreement with exactly what she just finished saying? No. Do you go around saying "I think" this or that, then immediately follow it up by verbally agreeing with yourself? No, because it doesn't make sense.
It simply defies logic, and I challenge anyone to publicly parse it otherwise.
I can't believe this has been blown so far out of proportion by partisan hacks. Shame on you, Stephen Taylor; you've pigeon-holed yourself.
posted by Huxley on 12 September 2008 at 5:07 PM
THAT being that canadian politicians think canadians are stupid. she is not fundamentally agreeing that canadian are stupid, she is fundamentally agreeing that canadian politicans think canadians are stupid.
in this instance, i think she might right. harper thinks putting a powder blue sweater on and talking about playing cards with his kids will sway voters minds. you have to have pretty low regard for the average voter if you see him or her as so manipulatable.
maybe harper is right too. maybe the average voter isn't that smart.
posted by brendan on 12 September 2008 at 5:33 PM
While the Americans are debating whether Obama was referring to Palin as the pig with lipstick, here we are, no better, debating whether "That assessment" was that Canadians are stupid, that politicians think Canadians are stupid, or that there is no political will to implement carbon tax.
How did this all start? By a right-wing blogger taking a clip out of context and sticking it on youtube. How did it expand? By John Bennett revealing his incompetency in dealing with online bloggers.
So where do we stand? Well, there should be criticisms fired here. One should go to John Bennett for trying to strong-arm the bloggers into pulling the clips off the website, and the other should go to the bloggers themselves for creating controversy where there was none. This clip was from a 2007 episode of The Agenda, and now it's controversial? It's only controversial in the way Stephen Taylor cropped the clip. Removing all context making it seem that May really attacked the intelligence of Canadians in front of a Canadian audience. One would have to ask, why were the audience not as outraged? Why didn't Paikin call her out on that? Perhaps it was because they received the full context, unlike what Tayler and Leftdog have shown.
It's partisan hackery and if we're going to give this attention, then we might as well point our fingers at the bloggers for diverting the issues. For spending time to create a controversy where none existed only to be rewarded with traffic hits to their website. Bravo.
I can't wait for next week's election campaign issues. Can we beat out the Americans in making a spectacle of democracy? Tune-in to the blogosphere and see what happens.
*NOTE: I support bloggers, but not the ones who are clearly partisan hacks.
posted by Coeus on 12 September 2008 at 6:18 PM
She does say "they think Canadians are stupid", but then she follows it up with "and I totally agree with that assessment". To me it appears that she is saying that she agrees with the assessment that Canadians are stupid.
Even so, the real story is not that she thinks we're stupid; that was evident from her behavior before. The real story is that she is an angry bully who has decided that the best policy is to move through the political world at ramming speed.
One other interesting tid bit is that she was actually born in CT, U.S.A. and nowhere in her bio does it say if and when she became a Canadian citizen.
posted by DeclanMcRoy on 12 September 2008 at 6:44 PM
Jerry Prager, you are wrong, whe starts saying "and I" before she turns her head. at 0:22 seconds there is a sound. I am not 100% sure, but it sounds like one of the others made some sound in reaction to her saying politicians think Canadians are stuped. At 0:23 she starts to turn her head, as if in response to this sound.
posted by cez on 12 September 2008 at 7:30 PM
The issue is not what she said. It is what was done after by the Green party staffer acting in May's name. That is what she has to answer for. Threatening a lawsuit because of the unflattering quotation is far beyond acceptable behaviour from someone who has been giving interview after interview about free speech. That is what is at issue. If May does not fire Bennett then she is not deserving of support of anyone who thought fairness should mean the Greens be allowed to speak at the debates.
posted by H R Pufnstuf on 12 September 2008 at 7:54 PM
If you play the tape, it is clear as a bell that she says "....and i fundamentally agree with that assessment..." To this, there is no question, just watch it. Yet, May tells an outright lie on The Agenda, claiming that she said "...and I fundamentally DIS agree with that assessment..", and that she just talks fast. But don't take my word for it, check it out yourself.
Now that leaves the question, then.....if May is willingly to blatantly LIE to viewers already, and she isn't even elected yet, then what can we expect from her in the future?
posted by Terry on 12 September 2008 at 8:53 PM
As Ms. May said to Steve tonight, is it really possible that those sitting closest to her would have heard 'Canadians are stupid' and not reacted? (That's assuming she would ever say such a thing.) Give your heads a shake.
The question to those who are attempting this smear is were you saving this juicy bit for the election? Why not raise it earlier? This was nothing more than a partisan smear attempt. Was the Green Party operative's response over the top? Sure. Since YouTube is obviously new to him, maybe he just needs a refresher on the 'internets'.
posted by kenngc on 12 September 2008 at 9:28 PM
(... they think) Canadians, especially paper(hanging?)canadians, are 'impotent' ... (politically)! ... Karsten Mertens - "Neue Welt" - 'Das Sprachroar' of 1,2 million '-'-'-canadians (of germanic origin) in south-west Ontario that May or May not go fishing and/or hunting because we take such advice seriously; considering, that it was the Liberals that let us come and stay! Did Mr Martens know something we didn't ... bring to Canada? Ah well, such is the heritage of pioneers; May I dare to guess? 'This election hangs' ... on the 'epitaphed epithets' of ... blogheads! "OPA"PeteR.
posted by "OPA"PeteR. on 12 September 2008 at 10:59 PM
I am prepared to accept that Ms May did not intend to say that she thought Canadians were stupid (although I have lisened to the clip five times and it sure sounds like "I" to me). Let's just assume she tripped over her tongue like we all do sometimes and the wrong word came out.
The troubling aspect is her resort to threats to suppress the clip. For me this is all the more troubling in light of her protests that free speech was being trampled by her exclusion form the debate. In threatening to sue she was attempting to shut down another debate over what she actuallly said.
Don't we have enough hypocites in Parliament already?
posted by pzaduk on 13 September 2008 at 5:33 AM
That E. May's obviously a real charmer. Even duped Steve Paikin this time, who is usually able to call people on it. The mainstream media will no doubt be throwing lob balls to Ms May throughout this campaign, but she knows exactly how to dupe them, too.
posted by Terry on 13 September 2008 at 7:49 PM
Someone had to say it! For the most part Canadians are stupid. Humans are stupid. We'd sell a country for tax cuts even if it meant total absolute death to the nation! (one president stated that one time, I forget who). Anyhow, in 300 years we have done some wild damage to this country and we continue to do so. Our priorities are messed up. Empires have grown out of control.
Our education system is just as expensive as the American system. Our health care system cries for reform. Our government grows empires with status quo.
We have just went through a huge economic boom starting with the stock market hype of the 90s http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dotcon/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/
Then the government spending spree of the 2000s. The housing boom + a war (it's known that war brings economic prosperity) + oil crisis. So, we have a couple of parties wanting to give tax cuts now when we are almost at the last gas station with our economic boom. Jobs is what counts in the economy. And, jobs we had over the past decade. Heck, the governnment alone grew by about 75000 jobs! (while the conservatives were in power!). Education seems to be the empire that sucks the life out of students (huge debt) and even primary grade kids have to fork out dough now too! Wonder who is going to pay the CPP later on!
Anyhow, as the jobs dry up and the housing boom slows so will the economy. People will be out of work. The media will blame the people of the land as the rich got away with the dough (sitting fine and pretty in their big old homes). The banks (who loaned out huge dollars to who ever came calling) will ask for payback (the loaners come calling for higher returns). The government will either be forced to cut jobs or raise taxes. The economy will spiral. What goes up must come down eventually. A party can't last forever!
Stupid we are! We should be investing in green technology. That will bring about competition for the oil companies. The threat - foreign oil! We sold off most of our resources to foreign ownership, but some jack azz wants even more of it! The only way to avoid this messy situation of dependency we got ourselves into (use of oil) is to come up with green technology. As for banks - they monopolized and they want even more! We need more competition! More competition means less power. Power corrupts!!! As for government - we need turn around in the structure! Anyone in a management position should be forced to turn around into a new job every 5 years. New eyes will babysit. No status quo. The structure has to change. Competition is a good thing to some degree. Need a balance! Not too much not too little. Just the right sweet spot.
But, canadians just don't get that. Stupid like. We use oil ever day then blame the oil companies. Don't like the price, don't use it! We are so damn dependent on energy. We are good at blaming.
Want a change. We have to change our ways first and foremost. Then we can count on the government and demand change. Yet, most of us will not. So, I can see why she called Canadians stupid. Cause as humans we are stupid. We always have been and probably always will be. Just look at how stupid we really are. What creatures on the planet require 3000lbs of metal at 30% efficiency to push around about 200lbs of human flesh during rush hour. That has to be the most stupid example. Another is people making money off of all this stupidity of humans being pushed around in a big metal basket of inefficiency. Huge huge money that adds almost 0 value to the economy as a whole (pollution never taken into the cost nor is the fact that oil can't be replaced). We canadians should be bloody well pieved off that so much fuel is consumed each day for stupidity. For without it we will die at -40oC!
Stupid we are.
posted by jac02000 on 13 September 2008 at 10:53 PM
(imho) I don't buy the "Canadians are stupid" misquote....
"Kerfuffle", "as if", "should have watched the tape markalanwhittle", "Definitely "they"", "Correcting myself", "Sorry HR Puff et al", "Absurd", "she fundamentally agrees with THAT assessment ", "Kerfuffle 2", "As if...", "Hypocrisy is the issue" comments make more sense and appear to be more logical....
i wonder at the desperation and the degree to which this blogger Taylor and other Harpies are willing to whip themselves into a self-deluding frenzy in order to attempt to deceive others! "these ppl" think Canadians are stupid. if E.May called me stupid, the others on that panel would have jumped all over her in a heartbeat; if they all agree that we're stupid, well, that speaks volumes of the lot of them, conservatives especially, who are yet again shooting themselves in the foot by reviving this issue....
[quote] This clip was from a 2007 episode of The Agenda, and now it's controversial? It's only controversial in the way Stephen Taylor cropped the clip. Removing all context making it seem that May really attacked the intelligence of Canadians in front of a Canadian audience. One would have to ask, why were the audience not as outraged? Why didn't Paikin call her out on that? Perhaps it was because they received the full context, unlike what Tayler and Leftdog have shown....
It's partisan hackery and if we're going to give this attention, then we might as well point our fingers at the bloggers for diverting the issues. For spending time to create a controversy where none existed only to be rewarded with traffic hits to their website. Bravo. [/quote]....
as an aside, Palin can't pout and feign hurt when she called herself something far worse by referring to herself as a pitbull; a female dog is a "what" boys and girls? lipstick on a pig seems tame in comparison....
posted by LIVx...(imho) on 14 September 2008 at 2:10 PM
May missed the darts: It is not the 'carbon tax' that will save our country from foreign takeovers (e.g., $s for 'gas') of our pocketbooks. It will be (I'll back Jack on this) the 'inheritance tax' (e.g., gasps for $s) that will get us our country back ... from where we will take it ... first! "OPA"PeteR.
posted by "OPA"PeteR. on 19 September 2008 at 2:57 PM
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What she said isn't the point
All candidates say stupid things. Gaffes are very entertaining, perhaps occasionally revealing, but essentially irrelevant.
The way her party reacted -- immediately firing off a barely literate, vicious, and utterly unfounded threat to somebody who posted the clip in good faith, if not for partisan reasons -- is much more troubling.
I can't take a candidate seriously who is unable to simply explain herself, and apologize, if necessary, and move on. If she wants to be taken seriously, she'd better learn to manage her people a little better than that. (And it wouldn't hurt to hire a "director of communications" who can put a sentence together.)
posted by Mambo Bananapatch on 12 September 2008 at 1:31 PM